Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Feb 29, 2012
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Not really, I am pretty sure most of rival teams were happy with Lance bringing way more money to the sport. Only Jumbo would be disgruntled about UAE right now, and they also have a very checkered doping history as well
 
May 18, 2012
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Yeah, it might be hypocritical of someone who wants a totally clean sport to turn a blind eye to everyone spreading a bit of extra butter on their toast, but at the moment it seems like half the peloton is scraping on just enough butter that they feel they can safely get away with saying it's just plain old bread, while most of the other half have come to realise they can keep smearing as many giant blobs of the stuff on as they can afford to and most people will just glance at it and see a normal and unproblematic sandwich. Then there's a select few that are sprinking a couple of breadcrumbs on top of a stick of dynamite and insisting that the abomination you're looking at is still just a totally normal slice of toast.
and you can't help but think some of these guys are holding back plenty in reserve too. Are they even hitting the deep red zones?
 
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Jun 27, 2009
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Someone was. That statement was made at the time, and not with the benefit of hindsight.
From the same “oracle” website, an article written just a month before the one about Pogačar.

”We have the privilege of interviewing a lot of talented young riders, many of whom we hope will become the stars of tomorrow. But we have not yet met a rider who goes over cobbles and hills, as well as possessing a sprint and TT like Mikkel Frolich Honoré does…”

Alas, in 2019, Mikkel Honoré decided to sign for Quickstep, and Remco, a true cycling prodigy who was compared to Merckx at the time, made a similar decision. Tadej, on the other hand, decided to sign for Mauro Giannetti’s team. The rest is history…
 
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Apr 8, 2023
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The only thing that can stop this, or any top-level team, has been a police raid like Festina or Puerto, which has not happened since Puerto or 2008 Tour if I recall correctly.
This is what I posted a few days ago! We should have a police raid every year - teams can draw lots for who gets raided. It's always the highlight of any Tour!
 
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Not really, I am pretty sure most of rival teams were happy with Lance bringing way more money to the sport. Only Jumbo would be disgruntled about UAE right now, and they also have a very checkered doping history as well
I don't really buy this. What extra money is UAE bringing to professional cycling outside of Team UAE itself - by a Slovenian? Not like Lance at all who transcended the sport. Can you imagine in litigious America where one team had a known unfair advantage? As for "only Jumbo", what about Red Bull who also sponsor Formula 1 ?
 
Oct 13, 2024
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I don't really buy this. What extra money is UAE bringing to professional cycling outside of Team UAE itself - by a Slovenian? Not like Lance at all who transcended the sport. Can you imagine in litigious America where one team had a known unfair advantage? As for "only Jumbo", what about Red Bull who also sponsor Formula 1 ?
Exactly, you say it well. Lance literally transcended the sport. Sure Pogacar is popular but he also is kind of a non figure outside the sport. And he will never be, Pogacar's sport results are fascinating but whatever he says is actually not. I don't find him charismatic at all.
 
May 16, 2015
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With the best TT ever seen in cycling Indurain didn't have to demolish his rivals on climbs - but he certainly could if he wanted to. Ironically one time he did was Hautacam - 1993. On that occasion Indurain demolished his main rival Tony Rominger by over 2 minutes - similar to Vingegaard's time loss today. Also unable to keep up with Big Mig that day was non other than Marco Pantani.
In his Tour wins he never won a stage unless it was a TT. I found that incredibly dull to watch.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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From the same edition of shameless boasting…
IMG-4431.jpg
 
Sep 10, 2016
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When is the last time he had a bad day? 2023 Worlds TT? Or if you think that does not matter, Courchevel 2023?
I think he has been on the podium of every race he has done since 2023 Lombardia with the exception of 2024 Quebec.
And he races from February/March to October. On all kinds of races.
His fans will say he does have bad days, and then give examples where he finished 2nd, in the same time as the winner.
 
May 30, 2015
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I think had any magical secret existed, it would've been exposed and put in use by other teams a long ago. The core of the edge he has comes down to sheer natural ability. Even if is there are some tricky things involved, UCI will never touch him.
 
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In his Tour wins he never won a stage unless it was a TT. I found that incredibly dull to watch.
Agree it was dull but I grew to respect his immense strength. In 1993, 94 and 95 I was rooting for Rominger to topple him. Only 93 was a contest but the horse had bolted when Tony's team had a disastrous TTT. But as I said Indurain didn't have to win in mountains but certainly could as he demonstrated on Hautacam and on other occasions I am certain.
 
Then why are people calling him extremely talented? Based on what period and performances exactly?
I don't know. But aren't you the OP? You can't refer to lack of results at 19 I am vaguely certain there is sports science that backs me up on this. Also simply knowing every person has different physiology and matures at different ages. If performance when young always correlated Andy Schleck would have won the Tour maybe 5 times.
 
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Jul 7, 2013
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Agree it was dull but I grew to respect his immense strength. In 1993, 94 and 95 I was rooting for Rominger to topple him. Only 93 was a contest but the horse had bolted when Tony's team had a disastrous TTT. But as I said Indurain didn't have to win in mountains but certainly could as he demonstrated on Hautacam and on other occasions I am certain.

In 1995 he had to react to Zulle's threat and had a monster ride on La Plagne crushing all top climbers, who were completely hidden behind him on TV footage.
 
Sep 10, 2016
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I think had any magical sected existed, it would've been exposed and put in use by other teams a long ago. The core of the edge he has comes down to sheer natural ability. Even if is there are some tricky things involved, UCI will never touch him.
Why do you think his natural ability increased so much in 2024?
 
May 16, 2015
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When is the last time he had a bad day? 2023 Worlds TT? Or if you think that does not matter, Courchevel 2023?
I think he has been on the podium of every race he has done since 2023 Lombardia with the exception of 2024 Quebec.
And he races from February/March to October. On all kinds of races.

As suspicious as he may be at least he does turn out all year - like Ingebrigtsen and Duplantis. I find it harder to stomach the track and field athletes who appear just to win major champs - but are nowhere else to be seen - and the great post-Badger cyclists racing seriously for only 2 months a year, or the tennis champs who vanish injured for months then come back better than ever.
 
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As suspicious as he may be at least he does turn out all year - like Ingebrigtsen and Duplantis. I find it harder to stomach the track and field athletes who appear just to win major champs - but are nowhere else to be seen - and the great post-Badger cyclists racing seriously for only 2 months a year, or the tennis champs who vanish injured for months then come back better than ever.
That makes it more suspicious though. You should experience way more fatigue from a grand tour, than 3 minutes of running or pole vaulting, and yet all season, he's as fresh a a pole vaulter.
 
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I don't know. But arn'y you the OP? You can't refer to lack of results at 19 I am vaguely certain there is sports science that backs me up on this. Also simply mowing every person has different physiology and matures at different ages. If performance when young always correlated Andy Schelck would have won the Tour maybe 5 times.
Fair enough, but then we have to return to the facts: a slight above average U23 cyclist joined two of the greatest frauds in cycling history and became a near unbeatable monster all year around on all terrain.
 
Oct 13, 2024
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As suspicious as he may be at least he does turn out all year - like Ingebrigtsen and Duplantis. I find it harder to stomach the track and field athletes who appear just to win major champs - but are nowhere else to be seen - and the great post-Badger cyclists racing seriously for only 2 months a year, or the tennis champs who vanish injured for months then come back better than ever.
I get what you mean however the turning out all year on top level without getting any significant fatigue is what makes it suspicious... I see people often bringing up this argument as to why Pogacar is great and all, but for me that is actually one of the two main reasons I find him suspicious. The other one obviously is Mr. Gianetti and co.
 
May 16, 2015
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That makes it more suspicious though. You should experience way more fatigue from a grand tour, than 3 minutes of running or pole vaulting, and yet all season, he's as fresh a a pole vaulter.

It's the training where the work is done - not the actual event.

I am more suspicious of those who spend the year "training" then pop up to crush the big event (like Lance Armstrong). Wait until the World Athletics Champs in September - there will be the Ingebrigtsens and Duplantises - but then you'll have the Americans (and others) who've barely been seen all year then win gold only to disappear again. It's painfully obvious to me that too much in-competition testing messes with their "training"

But then you have Slovenia producing 2 cycling greats out of nowhere,

There are various factors that seem to either prove or mitigate foul play - but I see frequent competition as being something in an athlete's favour.
 

Stablo

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Jul 15, 2024
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Fair enough, but then we have to return to the facts: a slight above average U23 cyclist joined two of the greatest frauds in cycling history and became a near unbeatable monster all year around on all terrain.
This is the simple fact that's not even up for a debate. I could maybe accept his level before 23/24 winter, but even then the backround and level was making me very very skeptical. After that magical winter it has just become beyond hilarious. We also have to remember, that if Vinge&Visma would not haved upped their "game" too, pog would be now cruising on autopilot towards the 6th Tour title! In the modern highly professional and competitive peloton, think about that all. What a joke this has become.
 
Feb 14, 2014
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That makes it more suspicious though. You should experience way more fatigue from a grand tour, than 3 minutes of running or pole vaulting, and yet all season, he's as fresh a a pole vaulter.
It's not just the event that takes a physical toll though. Their training regimes are basically fine-tuned to get the athlete to an extreme physical peak that's totally unsustainable over time and requires a long period of recovery before peaking again. What makes Pogacar more suspicious is that cycling is a much more diverse sport than middle distance running or pole vaulting. Realistically, everyone in track and field has one or maybe two events they're targeting specifically throughout the year - either the worlds, the Olympics or some national or continental championship, so they're all both on and off peak at pretty much the same time.

In cycling, however, there are various extremely prestiguous events peppered pretty much from the end of February until the middle of October, and everyone's season looks completely different as they each target different races at different times. Yet Pogacar's last two seasons have looked like this:

2024
Early March to late May:
- Dominates two spring classics - Strade Bianche in early Match and La Doyenne in late April. Also throws in a podium finish at Primavera and a complete sweep of Catalunya in the middle of everything while he's at it.
- Takes a two week break from racing and then dominates the Giro for three straight weeks, picking up six stage wins, the GC and the KOM jersey.

July:
- Comes to the Tour and again dominates with another six stage wins and a resounding GC win.

Mid-September to mid-October:
- Wins Montreal, then races the Worlds two weeks later and just rides off on his own for 100km, winning easily, before winning Lombardia by three minutes another two weeks later.

Summary: A consistent peak of three months at the start of the season, then a one month break following another one month peak, and then a two month break before another one month peak. Absolutely insane, and unseen in cycling before.

2025
Early March to late May:
- Repeats his wins and Primavera podium from last year, but instead of racing Catalunya he decided to spice it up by racing races he absolutely does not have the build for and ends up winning Ronde van Vlaanderen and finishing second in Paris-Roubaix. Gets second at Amstel and wins at Fleche Wallonne too, because why not?
July:
- Looks like he could win it on one leg based on his performance so far. Dominated Dauphine in the warmup too.

August:
- Probably going to clean up at la Vuelta, if rumours of his schedule are anything to go by.

September/October:
- More rainbow jerseys and monuments to win, so you know he'll be dominating there too, the greedy little bastard.

If it does indeed play out like that from here, it'll yet again be three massive peaks that cover most of the season, allowing him to consistently be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of what type of race it is.

Alternatively he's not even peaking, he's just so good he can show up undercooked to races and still consistently crush the best, most ultra-prepared riders in the world in a manner that's never really been seen before, with the added benefit of not needing to go through the cooldown period that comes after pushing himself super hard in training.
 
May 16, 2015
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It's not just the event that takes a physical toll though. Their training regimes are basically fine-tuned to get the athlete to an extreme physical peak that's totally unsustainable over time and requires a long period of recovery before peaking again. What makes Pogacar more suspicious is that cycling is a much more diverse sport than middle distance running or pole vaulting. Realistically, everyone in track and field has one or maybe two events they're targeting specifically throughout the year - either the worlds, the Olympics or some national or continental championship, so they're all both on and off peak at pretty much the same time.

In cycling, however, there are various extremely prestiguous events peppered pretty much from the end of February until the middle of October, and everyone's season looks completely different as they each target different races at different times. Yet Pogacar's last two seasons have looked like this:

2024
Early March to late May:
- Dominates two spring classics - Strade Bianche in early Match and La Doyenne in late April. Also throws in a podium finish at Primavera and a complete sweep of Catalunya in the middle of everything while he's at it.
- Takes a two week break from racing and then dominates the Giro for three straight weeks, picking up six stage wins, the GC and the KOM jersey.

July:
- Comes to the Tour and again dominates with another six stage wins and a resounding GC win.

Mid-September to mid-October:
- Wins Montreal, then races the Worlds two weeks later and just rides off on his own for 100km, winning easily, before winning Lombardia by three minutes another two weeks later.

Summary: A consistent peak of three months at the start of the season, then a one month break following another one month peak, and then a two month break before another one month peak. Absolutely insane, and unseen in cycling before.

2025
Early March to late May:
- Repeats his wins and Primavera podium from last year, but instead of racing Catalunya he decided to spice it up by racing races he absolutely does not have the build for and ends up winning Ronde van Vlaanderen and finishing second in Paris-Roubaix. Gets second at Amstel and wins at Fleche Wallonne too, because why not?
July:
- Looks like he could win it on one leg based on his performance so far. Dominated Dauphine in the warmup too.

August:
- Probably going to clean up at la Vuelta, if rumours of his schedule are anything to go by.

September/October:
- More rainbow jerseys and monuments to win, so you know he'll be dominating there too, the greedy little bastard.

If it does indeed play out like that from here, it'll yet again be three massive peaks that cover most of the season, allowing him to consistently be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of what type of race it is.

Alternatively he's not even peaking, he's just so good he can show up undercooked to races and still consistently crush the best, most ultra-prepared riders in the world in a manner that's never really been seen before, with the added benefit of not needing to go through the cooldown period that comes after pushing himself super hard in training.

but then he'd have to be cheating in a way that noone has ever done before - which begs the question why haven't they?

I'll never be persuaded that frequent successful competition is a greater indicator of doping that popping up from nowhere to win the big events - goes against the history of ped use. Would I be less suspicious of Pog if he won the Tour in the manner he does but did little else the rest of the year? Not for a moment,