Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I don't know. But arn'y you the OP? You can't refer to lack of results at 19 I am vaguely certain there is sports science that backs me up on this. Also simply mowing every person has different physiology and matures at different ages. If performance when young always correlated Andy Schelck would have won the Tour maybe 5 times.

Fair enough, but then we have to return to the facts: a slight above average U23 cyclist joined two of the greatest frauds in cycling history and became a near unbeatable monster all year around on all terrain.

 

[dr.eve]

As suspicious as he may be at least he does turn out all year - like Ingebrigtsen and Duplantis. I find it harder to stomach the track and field athletes who appear just to win major champs - but are nowhere else to be seen - and the great post-Badger cyclists racing seriously for only 2 months a year, or the tennis champs who vanish injured for months then come back better than ever.

I get what you mean however the turning out all year on top level without getting any significant fatigue is what makes it suspicious... I see people often bringing up this argument as to why Pogacar is great and all, but for me that is actually one of the two main reasons I find him suspicious. The other one obviously is Mr. Gianetti and co.

 

[fenns]

That makes it more suspicious though. You should experience way more fatigue from a grand tour, than 3 minutes of running or pole vaulting, and yet all season, he's as fresh a a pole vaulter.

It's the training where the work is done - not the actual event.

I am more suspicious of those who spend the year "training" then pop up to crush the big event (like Lance Armstrong). Wait until the World Athletics Champs in September - there will be the Ingebrigtsens and Duplantises - but then you'll have the Americans (and others) who've barely been seen all year then win gold only to disappear again. It's painfully obvious to me that too much in-competition testing messes with their "training"

But then you have Slovenia producing 2 cycling greats out of nowhere,

There are various factors that seem to either prove or mitigate foul play - but I see frequent competition as being something in an athlete's favour.

 

[Stablo]

Fair enough, but then we have to return to the facts: a slight above average U23 cyclist joined two of the greatest frauds in cycling history and became a near unbeatable monster all year around on all terrain.

This is the simple fact that's not even up for a debate. I could maybe accept his level before 23/24 winter, but even then the backround and level was making me very very skeptical. After that magical winter it has just become beyond hilarious. We also have to remember, that if Vinge&Visma would not haved upped their "game" too, pog would be now cruising on autopilot towards the 6th Tour title! In the modern highly professional and competitive peloton, think about that all. What a joke this has become.

 

[Saint Unix]

That makes it more suspicious though. You should experience way more fatigue from a grand tour, than 3 minutes of running or pole vaulting, and yet all season, he's as fresh a a pole vaulter.

It's not just the event that takes a physical toll though. Their training regimes are basically fine-tuned to get the athlete to an extreme physical peak that's totally unsustainable over time and requires a long period of recovery before peaking again. What makes Pogacar more suspicious is that cycling is a much more diverse sport than middle distance running or pole vaulting. Realistically, everyone in track and field has one or maybe two events they're targeting specifically throughout the year - either the worlds, the Olympics or some national or continental championship, so they're all both on and off peak at pretty much the same time.

In cycling, however, there are various extremely prestiguous events peppered pretty much from the end of February until the middle of October, and everyone's season looks completely different as they each target different races at different times. Yet Pogacar's last two seasons have looked like this:

2024
Early March to late May:
- Dominates two spring classics - Strade Bianche in early Match and La Doyenne in late April. Also throws in a podium finish at Primavera and a complete sweep of Catalunya in the middle of everything while he's at it.
- Takes a two week break from racing and then dominates the Giro for three straight weeks, picking up six stage wins, the GC and the KOM jersey.

July:
- Comes to the Tour and again dominates with another six stage wins and a resounding GC win.

Mid-September to mid-October:
- Wins Montreal, then races the Worlds two weeks later and just rides off on his own for 100km, winning easily, before winning Lombardia by three minutes another two weeks later.

Summary: A consistent peak of three months at the start of the season, then a one month break following another one month peak, and then a two month break before another one month peak. Absolutely insane, and unseen in cycling before.

2025
Early March to late May:
- Repeats his wins and Primavera podium from last year, but instead of racing Catalunya he decided to spice it up by racing races he absolutely does not have the build for and ends up winning Ronde van Vlaanderen and finishing second in Paris-Roubaix. Gets second at Amstel and wins at Fleche Wallonne too, because why not?
July:
- Looks like he could win it on one leg based on his performance so far. Dominated Dauphine in the warmup too.

August:
- Probably going to clean up at la Vuelta, if rumours of his schedule are anything to go by.

September/October:
- More rainbow jerseys and monuments to win, so you know he'll be dominating there too, the greedy little bastard.

If it does indeed play out like that from here, it'll yet again be three massive peaks that cover most of the season, allowing him to consistently be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of what type of race it is.

Alternatively he's not even peaking, he's just so good he can show up undercooked to races and still consistently crush the best, most ultra-prepared riders in the world in a manner that's never really been seen before, with the added benefit of not needing to go through the cooldown period that comes after pushing himself super hard in training.

 

[fenns]

It's not just the event that takes a physical toll though. Their training regimes are basically fine-tuned to get the athlete to an extreme physical peak that's totally unsustainable over time and requires a long period of recovery before peaking again. What makes Pogacar more suspicious is that cycling is a much more diverse sport than middle distance running or pole vaulting. Realistically, everyone in track and field has one or maybe two events they're targeting specifically throughout the year - either the worlds, the Olympics or some national or continental championship, so they're all both on and off peak at pretty much the same time.

In cycling, however, there are various extremely prestiguous events peppered pretty much from the end of February until the middle of October, and everyone's season looks completely different as they each target different races at different times. Yet Pogacar's last two seasons have looked like this:

2024
Early March to late May:
- Dominates two spring classics - Strade Bianche in early Match and La Doyenne in late April. Also throws in a podium finish at Primavera and a complete sweep of Catalunya in the middle of everything while he's at it.
- Takes a two week break from racing and then dominates the Giro for three straight weeks, picking up six stage wins, the GC and the KOM jersey.

July:
- Comes to the Tour and again dominates with another six stage wins and a resounding GC win.

Mid-September to mid-October:
- Wins Montreal, then races the Worlds two weeks later and just rides off on his own for 100km, winning easily, before winning Lombardia by three minutes another two weeks later.

Summary: A consistent peak of three months at the start of the season, then a one month break following another one month peak, and then a two month break before another one month peak. Absolutely insane, and unseen in cycling before.

2025
Early March to late May:
- Repeats his wins and Primavera podium from last year, but instead of racing Catalunya he decided to spice it up by racing races he absolutely does not have the build for and ends up winning Ronde van Vlaanderen and finishing second in Paris-Roubaix. Gets second at Amstel and wins at Fleche Wallonne too, because why not?
July:
- Looks like he could win it on one leg based on his performance so far. Dominated Dauphine in the warmup too.

August:
- Probably going to clean up at la Vuelta, if rumours of his schedule are anything to go by.

September/October:
- More rainbow jerseys and monuments to win, so you know he'll be dominating there too, the greedy little bastard.

If it does indeed play out like that from here, it'll yet again be three massive peaks that cover most of the season, allowing him to consistently be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of what type of race it is.

Alternatively he's not even peaking, he's just so good he can show up undercooked to races and still consistently crush the best, most ultra-prepared riders in the world in a manner that's never really been seen before, with the added benefit of not needing to go through the cooldown period that comes after pushing himself super hard in training.

but then he'd have to be cheating in a way that noone has ever done before - which begs the question why haven't they?

I'll never be persuaded that frequent successful competition is a greater indicator of doping that popping up from nowhere to win the big events - goes against the history of ped use. Would I be less suspicious of Pog if he won the Tour in the manner he does but did little else the rest of the year? Not for a moment,

 

[Brullnux]

Fair enough, but then we have to return to the facts: a slight above average U23 cyclist joined two of the greatest frauds in cycling history and became a near unbeatable monster all year around on all terrain.

I wouldn't push this narrative too far, he won l'Avenir and had plenty of other stand-out performances for an 18/19yo in a pretty mediocre continental team. Compare that to Almeida, who he beat at l'Avenir, who had a much more professional set-up at Axeon. He was an excellent u23 rider, this wasn't a Froome-style transformation.

The issue with Pogacar is the GOAT level he is riding at now. Of course the numbers and performances he's putting out now are ridiculous, but there is no junior or u23-level performances could explain them so I don't see the point in stressing that he was an almost average u23 rider (which he wasn't).

 

[Psycat]

but then he'd have to be cheating in a way that noone has ever done before - which begs the question why haven't they?

I'll never be persuaded that frequent successful competition is a greater indicator of doping that popping up from nowhere to win the big events - goes against the history of ped use. Would I be less suspicious of Pog if he won the Tour in the manner he does but did little else the rest of the year? Not for a moment,

Because gene doping is a relatively new scientific field, same for motor doping that's very hard to detect.

Let me put it this way if, for example, Armstrong deemed a motor necessary and feasible to hide would he have used it given opportunity?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Fair enough, but then we have to return to the facts: a slight above average U23 cyclist joined two of the greatest frauds in cycling history and became a near unbeatable monster all year around on all terrain.

He won Tour de France twice at the age of 22. Not bad for a slight above average U23.

BTW: I get what you mean, just this term average U23 looks comical in this context.

 

[AverageWatts]

Its just so fake nowadays. If only talents and clean souls could win the game.

Gianetti has clearly changed for the better.

 

[Rob5091]

A wonderful comment about the GOAT, from the BBC webpage comments,
"His grace, humility and respect defines him." Fanboy quote of the year so far, unless you know better!

 

[Raest]

From the same edition of shameless boasting…

He'd crashed the day before, it was 33 degrees (he doesn't like heat or at least he didn't use to) and still crashed everyone... I watched most of the Netflix series from last year, the year before, when Vingegaard won Combloux they were openly discussing (and rightly so) him doping, for Pogacar nothing. Just fawining over like lovestruck teenagers...

 

[DONCA]

Because gene doping is a relatively new scientific field, same for motor doping that's very hard to detect.

Let me put it this way if, for example, Armstrong deemed a motor necessary and feasible to hide would he have used it given opportunity?

The motor allegedly used by Lance Armstrong to cheat

The latest scandal to surround ex-cyclist Lance Armstrong is the accusation of having used technological doping during some of the sport's biggest events. The American was strippe

www.marca.com

Isn't it pretty clear that Armstrong used a motor?

Take a look at the video. Those strange movements with his finger under the saddle. As if he was pressing a button. Immediately afterwards he increases his cadence.

But doubters will surely say that he just stuck his finger in his bum for a moment.

 

[DONCA]

It's not just the event that takes a physical toll though. Their training regimes are basically fine-tuned to get the athlete to an extreme physical peak that's totally unsustainable over time and requires a long period of recovery before peaking again. What makes Pogacar more suspicious is that cycling is a much more diverse sport than middle distance running or pole vaulting. Realistically, everyone in track and field has one or maybe two events they're targeting specifically throughout the year - either the worlds, the Olympics or some national or continental championship, so they're all both on and off peak at pretty much the same time.

In cycling, however, there are various extremely prestiguous events peppered pretty much from the end of February until the middle of October, and everyone's season looks completely different as they each target different races at different times. Yet Pogacar's last two seasons have looked like this:

2024
Early March to late May:
- Dominates two spring classics - Strade Bianche in early Match and La Doyenne in late April. Also throws in a podium finish at Primavera and a complete sweep of Catalunya in the middle of everything while he's at it.
- Takes a two week break from racing and then dominates the Giro for three straight weeks, picking up six stage wins, the GC and the KOM jersey.

July:
- Comes to the Tour and again dominates with another six stage wins and a resounding GC win.

Mid-September to mid-October:
- Wins Montreal, then races the Worlds two weeks later and just rides off on his own for 100km, winning easily, before winning Lombardia by three minutes another two weeks later.

Summary: A consistent peak of three months at the start of the season, then a one month break following another one month peak, and then a two month break before another one month peak. Absolutely insane, and unseen in cycling before.

2025
Early March to late May:
- Repeats his wins and Primavera podium from last year, but instead of racing Catalunya he decided to spice it up by racing races he absolutely does not have the build for and ends up winning Ronde van Vlaanderen and finishing second in Paris-Roubaix. Gets second at Amstel and wins at Fleche Wallonne too, because why not?
July:
- Looks like he could win it on one leg based on his performance so far. Dominated Dauphine in the warmup too.

August:
- Probably going to clean up at la Vuelta, if rumours of his schedule are anything to go by.

September/October:
- More rainbow jerseys and monuments to win, so you know he'll be dominating there too, the greedy little bastard.

If it does indeed play out like that from here, it'll yet again be three massive peaks that cover most of the season, allowing him to consistently be head and shoulders above everyone else, regardless of what type of race it is.

Alternatively he's not even peaking, he's just so good he can show up undercooked to races and still consistently crush the best, most ultra-prepared riders in the world in a manner that's never really been seen before, with the added benefit of not needing to go through the cooldown period that comes after pushing himself super hard in training.

Pogacar doesn´t have to peak. He could also ride 6 grand tours without getting tired.
That he doesn't get tired is abnormal and that he can win races that are not meant for his type of rider, like some of the flatter classics.

How is it possible for a light rider like him to win on flat courses against riders who have a much higher FTP than him? That defies all logic.

How is it possible for a Pogacar to leave his competition seated in a few seconds while everyone else is sprinting and dying out of the saddle?

The only logical explanation I can find for this is that he has something that ensures that he virtually never has to ride in the red zone, which is why he is virtually never tired. He uses something that ensures that he can keep up even against riders with a significantly higher FTP. A little extra that gives him some more watts to close the gap to the big heavy guns.

Talent is not enough for that.

 

[Zen Master]

The issue with Pogacar is the GOAT level he is riding at now. Of course the numbers and performances he's putting out now are ridiculous, but there is no junior or u23-level performances could explain them so I don't see the point in stressing that he was an almost average u23 rider (which he wasn't).

Let's not forget that his main rivals are:
Jonas, who reportedly had the second highest ever measured VO2 Max of 97 at the age of seventeen, so he's almost certainly somewhere in the 100+ VO2 Max range right now.
MVdP, a generational talent, from a dynasty of cyclists, when it comes to Classics, who probably learned to ride a bike before he could walk. Remco, a true cycling prodigy who was predicted to be the next Merckx.

But somehow he's able to leave them all in the dust on any terrain all year round

 

[Zen Master]

He'd crashed the day before, it was 33 degrees (he doesn't like heat or at least he didn't use to) and still crashed everyone... I watched most of the Netflix series from last year, the year before, when Vingegaard won Combloux they were openly discussing (and rightly so) him doping, for Pogacar nothing. Just fawining over like lovestruck teenagers...

He had crashed the day before, but somehow managed to not only completely obliterate all his opponents, but to be practically on par with the most notorious doped performance of all time, which is undoubtedly what Mr. 60% did in 1996 on a much easier route where Hautacam was the only climb.

 

[dr.eve]

It's the training where the work is done - not the actual event.

I am more suspicious of those who spend the year "training" then pop up to crush the big event (like Lance Armstrong). Wait until the World Athletics Champs in September - there will be the Ingebrigtsens and Duplantises - but then you'll have the Americans (and others) who've barely been seen all year then win gold only to disappear again. It's painfully obvious to me that too much in-competition testing messes with their "training"

But then you have Slovenia producing 2 cycling greats out of nowhere,

There are various factors that seem to either prove or mitigate foul play - but I see frequent competition as being something in an athlete's favour.

I believe doping is of most use for better recovery. That's also why I think people saying 'doping in football is useless so its not happening' are looking at it the wrong way. Its so super beneficial if you recover better since you can keep going longer, you can train more and so on, on top of of course benefits in the race/match itself.

 

[cnort]

Is it my imagination or did Tadej look a little tired and ragged approaching the finish line yesterday? He wasn't exactly pulling Voeckler faces but his mouth was definitely open. Maybe he had a blocked nose.

The Clinic-link here is that he seems prone to hubris, which I generally see as a trait of someone who knows he has the 'right preparation'. A clean rider must keep an eye on the balance sheet, because at the end of the day it all has to add up. A doper can over-spend, knowing they'll get a bail-out. What I wouldn't give to see them racing with 1980s equipment (bikes and dope) - I think that would soften Tadej's cough.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Is it my imagination or did Tadej look a little tired and ragged approaching the finish line yesterday? He wasn't exactly pulling Voeckler faces but his mouth was definitely open. Maybe he had a blocked nose.

The Clinic-link here is that he seems prone to hubris, which I generally see as a trait of someone who knows he has the 'right preparation'. A clean rider must keep an eye on the balance sheet, because at the end of the day it all has to add up. A doper can over-spend, knowing they'll get a bail-out. What I wouldn't give to see them racing with 1980s equipment (bikes and dope) - I think that would soften Tadej's cough.

He was rocking a lot on the bike, haven't seen him like that on a long climb since he "changed crank length"

 

[Revelation]

Leaving the rest aside and just looking at Pogacar's face, arms and legs in 2019-20, in terms of world class cyclists, he was fat and in bad shape visually speaking. Despite this, he could do performances like Vuelta stage 20, Peyresourde and PdBF and win the Tour, at age 20-21. Now surely, considering what the prime years are in cycling, and how the cycling world looked like after that Tour, the only conclusion would be that it's game over for the rest in the GTs Pogacar does for the next 10 years at least.

Obviously, that didn't happen, due to another absurd climber (2022-24 Vingo) suddenly emerging, but IMO also because Pogacar's development in 2021-23 was less than expected. Even in 2023, when he did show clear improvement (Flanders etc.) and had his best climbing level (before the crack) despite bad preparation, he still physique-wise looked very different compared to 2024 onwards.

That's why the question for me isn't about 2024-25, that seems like natural progression from what he showed in 2019-20 as a very young rider with bad physique, with disappointing development in the years between. The question for me is rather how was he able to produce those performances and win the Tour as a 21-year old "fatso"?

 

[hrotha]

Let's not forget that his main rivals are:
Jonas, who reportedly had the second highest ever measured VO2 Max of 97 at the age of seventeen, so he's almost certainly somewhere in the 100+ VO2 Max range right now.
MVdP, a generational talent, from a dynasty of cyclists, when it comes to Classics, who probably learned to ride a bike before he could walk. Remco, a true cycling prodigy who was predicted to be the next Merckx.

But somehow he's able to leave them all in the dust on any terrain all year round

Honestly, for me it's not even about his rivals. The most glaring comparison is between 2024-2025 Pogačar and pre-2024 Pogačar. He wasn't a latecomer, or a kid, or recovering from a serious injury, or anything that might suggest there was still ample room for improvement. This was a world-class, already mature rider who had performed at an insanely high but mostly stable level for years but who would go on to suddenly improve a further 5-10% (which sounds small but is actually massive). The very idea is preposterous

 

[Ripper]

I think had any magical secret existed, it would've been exposed and put in use by other teams a long ago. The core of the edge he has comes down to sheer natural ability. Even if is there are some tricky things involved, UCI will never touch him.

Exactly like Chris Froome!

...

oh wait

 

[buddy buddy buddy]

Lipowitz last 3 seasons are actually a very logical progression for a young rider.

he did full under 23 programs for years with like 12th overall in valle d'aosta as the best result

came out of nowhere real fast last year

 

[Notarobot]

hahahhahahahahahahahah

https://twitter.com/x/status/1945900812460233014

View: https://x.com/itvcycling/status/1945900812460233014

Sure Tadej, sure. Clown.

 

[ashhutch1997]

His fans will say he does have bad days, and then give examples where he finished 2nd, in the same time as the winner.

This is so true, people point out the Le Leron stage from last year, where he came a close second. I'm sorry, but if you are having a bad day you don't solo attack 40k out.
He's been on top form for two years straight straight, I don't care how talented you are, thats BS.
I honestly don't think there's ever been such a blatant example of doping than this.