Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Valv.Piti]

You're welcome.

Always been very interested in why guys like you follow the sport to begin with, and then proceed to call other members out for enjoying races whilst on your high horse pretending to be blessed with a superior moral compass and what not. Very confusing to me since, after all, we are talking about the sport of CYCLING.

God damn.

 

[BubbaChuck]

if pog gets caught,it is over for him.unlike almost everbody else in history.eddie records are clean,lmaooo.pog will follow same suit as lance,so talking about morality is hilarius in this sport.

 

[Extinction]

It does last a couple of weeks and beyond... Pogacar lives in Monaco and that's at sea level!! Spending a bunch of time training in Sierra Nevada probably helps..
Don't see why riders would live in Denia, Girona just more sea level stuff.

I know athletes that live and train in Boulder, Colorado Springs, Morzine, Tahoe and Flagstaff and see big differences in performance from switching from Scottsdale, San Diego, Lyon, Dallas..and the effects last when traveling,.

Because altitude training has been a recognized benefit in all endurance sports for decades the idea that is part of a complicated ruse to use PEDs is just not rooted in fact.
Science says altitude training works

The effects of altitudine training, once coming down, don't last as long as you think.

 

[burning]

Always been very interested in why guys like you follow the sport to begin with, and then proceed to call other members out for enjoying races whilst on your high horse pretending to be blessed with a superior moral compass and what not. Very confusing to me since, after all, we are talking about the sport of CYCLING.

God damn.

I sincerely do not understand the people who trash talk people enjoying super-charged riders. However, calling a lack of "ethics" or "moral compass" for people that has no skin in the game is definitely absurd

 

[dr.eve]

Always been very interested in why guys like you follow the sport to begin with, and then proceed to call other members out for enjoying races whilst on your high horse pretending to be blessed with a superior moral compass and what not. Very confusing to me since, after all, we are talking about the sport of CYCLING.

God damn.

You are the one commenting on this thread in the Clinic. You do not care about if someone is clean yes or no. It displays the impression to me that you are just here because you can't stand people discussing your hero in light of doping.

And again, I am not replying to you because of you enjoying racing, as I said I am replying to you because of your lack of caring whether a sports win is clean yes or no. Since you mentioned that we are talking about the sport of cycling. You do know that the UCI and other organisations and countless of their members state that doping has no place in cycling? So the 'sport' disagrees with you.

Have a good day. And I will stop replying to you, but feel free to comment all you want.

 

[dr.eve]

I sincerely do not understand the people who trash talk people enjoying super-charged riders. However, calling a lack of "ethics" or "moral compass" for people that has no skin in the game is definitely absurd

Nothing absurd in calling the stance of not caring whether someone is clean or not, a lack of moral compass. You also need zero skin in the game to know that.

Why are you people here in the Clinic if you do not care? You are wasting your time here.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Well, then your impression of me is very wrong. Im not here to defend anyone, and I have absolutely no clue as to how you could interpret it as such. Why in the world would I have a problem with people discussing Pogacar and his use of PEDs? On a freaking internet forum litereally dedicated to doping? Thats a very, very weird assumption, and probably halfway explains you calling me out for lack of ethics and a broken moral compass because my opinion on the matter differs from yours. Literally lol. My god.

Would it be better if everyone was squeeky clean? Definitely. But this is pro sports, and we are discussing pro cycling, so thats a pipedream. Its not gonna happen. Im a realist, and I enjoy cycling like millions of people around the globe and enjoy watching the exploits of Van der Poel, Pogacar, WVA etc. in the biggest races. Thats never gonna change, me enjoying the sport of cycling, and thank god for that. With your stance and I still fail to see how you could possibly enjoy watching these races to begin with, present or past.

 

[pastronef]

Nothing absurd in calling the stance of not caring whether someone is clean or not, a lack of moral compass. You also need zero skin in the game to know that.

Why are you people here in the Clinic if you do not care? You are wasting your time here.

it depends about what you mean with "care". it was the Les Arcs evening in 1996 and Indurain (my teenage idol) lost minutes and looked cooked. I'd have accepted any illegal magic potion to see him win that Tour. I cared about that.

and in the great fight between the Danes and the Slovenians going on since a few years I post here my signature
"I'm more baffled about drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable doping depending on sentiments to one or another athlete"

 

[burning]

Nothing absurd in calling the stance of not caring whether someone is clean or not, a lack of moral compass. You also need zero skin in the game to know that.

Why are you people here in the Clinic if you do not care? You are wasting your time here.

I like to talk about the doping process and (crazy) numbers in general. I absolutely do not care whether someone is clean or not in any top-level sport, because almost all of the top athletes dope at some level.

And yes, calling the lack of moral compass for something like this is completely absurd, you should just step away from your high horse and chill a bit

 

[pastronef]

I know a few ppl on twitter that watch every race with the doping thought in their minds. always.
ffs when I see riders attacking up the Poggio I just shout and cheer them and the last thought in my mind is doping. and yet those ppl on twitter despite having the doping thought always with them, do the same thing, they draw a tiny line between the doping of the riders they like and the riders they dislike

 

[Stablo]

If you're a cycling fan, how cant you be fascinated by the sheer amount of talent, versaility and power?

Cause none of that is true. His a big talent for sure, but not this big. It all started happening when he joined forces with UAE and the biggest fraudster in cyclings history. Ricco was talented too and pog is Ricco 2.0, now theyre letting it happen cause cycling is cleanz these days and UAE is bringing a lot of money.

 

[Stablo]

I don't know how you can make this assertion. Perhaps it is true but I suspect that it more than likely isn't because nobody actually knows his base level when clean. Presuming that he was already on the rocket fuel whilst winning the Tour on PDBF in 2020, then it is likely that you have to go back to the juniors to discover his actual base level. And while he was undoubtedly an up and coming talent, there was absolutely no indication that he was going to be an all timer. It took the super rocket fuel to elevate him to that status and it's nowhere near a level playing field either when it comes to equal access to the proper gear. If you view it as entertainment then fine but don't pretend that it's supposed to be fair competition.

This is very well said and exactly the same I was trying to say there too. Have been away from here for some days and hadn't gotten to you reply yet. You could also ad that if the level of 20-23 wasn't enough, then the current world beater mode with no off days is clearly a result of better cheating than the other talents have, not natural. That's why I can't stand it and it doesn't make for some amazing racing.

 

[snipeheem]

This is very well said and exactly the same I was trying to say there too. Have been away from here for some days and hadn't gotten to you reply yet. You could also ad that if the level of 20-23 wasn't enough, then the current world beater mode with no off days is clearly a result of better cheating than the other talents have, not natural. That's why I can't stand it and it doesn't make for some amazing racing.

23 level he was almost not human anymore, but 24-25 come on its different planet.Crazy stuff

 

[Valv.Piti]

Cause none of that is true. His a big talent for sure, but not this big. It all started happening when he joined forces with UAE and the biggest fraudster in cyclings history. Ricco was talented too and pog is Ricco 2.0, now theyre letting it happen cause cycling is cleanz these days and UAE is bringing a lot of money.

Comparing Pogacar to Riccó in terms of talent (and everything else) is just peak clinic and why I find this subforum quite unserious and uneducated at times. They are just nothing alike.

 

[Extinction]

Doping has always existed in some form, but the problem I have today is the economic end of it all. It used to be that a rider of some talent could find success, perhaps doped, even likely doped, in a playing field that, if not completely level, at least wasn't excessively skewed towards team budgets like today. Of course the justification of this today goes under the euphemism of simply being "more professional" amongst the richest teams. By contrast, now if your team isn't well-financed by tens of millions of euros beyond most of the competition, you simply don't have access to the best performance science and hence best doping to stand a chance in the most prestigious races. Everything has thus been reduced to the hegemony of buying power and, in a numbers based era, the game simply loses it's appeal when the money factor takes control. Because the science of performance and therefore doping has become so sophisticated that only the largest budget teams net results. And this is true of all sport today, in which the widening gap between rich and poor teams, reflective of societal trends of the wealth gap in general, has created a kind of class system inimical to even the concept of a level playing field. If great natural talent alone should be determining, then it shouldn't really matter (at least not as much as it does today) whether you're on a 50 million a year budget team or say 30 million a year one in terms of having a chance to play one's cards. Yet of course it does. This has resulted in the proverbial cycling "at two speeds," in a way that simply wasn't the case when I become a rider in the 80s.

 

[AlpRaid]

Doping has always existed in some form, but the problem I have today is the economic end of it all. It used to be that a rider of some talent could find success, perhaps doped, even likely doped, in a playing field that, if not completely level, at least wasn't excessively skewed towards team budgets like today. Of course the justificstion of this today goes under the euphemism of simply being "more professional" amongst the richest teams. By contrast, now if your team isn't well-financed by tens of millions of euros beyond most of the competition, you simply don't have access to the best performance science and hence best doping to stand a chance in the most prestigious races. Everything has thus been reduced to the hegemony of buying power and, in a numbers based era, the game simply loses it's appeal when the money factor takes control. Because the science of performance and therefore doping has become so sophisticated that only the largest budget teams net results. And this is true of all sport today, in which the widening gap between rich and poor teams, reflective of societal trends of the wealth gap in general, has created a kind of class system inimical to even the concept of a level playing field. If great natural talent alone should be determining, then it shouldn't really matter (at least not as much as it does today) whether you're on a 50 million a year budget team or say 30 million a year one in terms of having a chance to play one's cards. Yet of course it does. This has resulted in the proverbial cycling "at two speeds," in a way it simply wasn't when I become a rider in the 80s.

Terrific post.

 

[Netserk]

Nothing absurd in calling the stance of not caring whether someone is clean or not, a lack of moral compass.

Lacking the particular compass that you have in mind would only necessarily be a lack of compass if no other compass exists.

 

[dr.eve]

Lacking the particular compass that you have in mind would only necessarily be a lack of compass if no other compass exists.

Fair enough.

I’m not saying everyone has to share my values. But if someone loves a sport and doesn’t care whether the athletes cheat, it makes me wonder what values they do care about. Isn’t fairness part of what makes sport meaningful?

If your compass points only toward entertainment and ignores fairness, it’s not guiding you through a moral landscape—it’s just chasing thrills. And that's fine but we are talking about competitions here, professional sport, which is not just about entertainment.

Sure different sets of compasses exist.

 

[HashRouge]

Fair enough.

I’m not saying everyone has to share my values. But if someone loves a sport and doesn’t care whether the athletes cheat, it makes me wonder what values they do care about. Isn’t fairness part of what makes sport meaningful?

If your compass points only toward entertainment and ignores fairness, it’s not guiding you through a moral landscape—it’s just chasing thrills. And that's fine but we are talking about competitions here, professional sport, which is not just about entertainment.

Sure different sets of compasses exist.

I care whether athletes cheat, but I'm less convinced that Pogacar is doing all the things that people in The Clinic say he is (you can say I'm an idiot/ naive, I won't be offended!). However, my main issue with Pogacar is riding for a team sponsored by UAE, given their human rights record and role in the conflict in Sudan. I don't blame him for signing with them as a young rider, or even for extending his original contract, but I was really saddened when he signed that huge extension last year. I like to think that if I was in Pog's position, I'd have taken my third TdF win and then been off to EF or somewhere with a less morally corrupt sponsor.

 

[dr.eve]

I care whether athletes cheat, but I'm less convinced that Pogacar is doing all the things that people in The Clinic say he is (you can say I'm an idiot/ naive, I won't be offended!). However, my main issue with Pogacar is riding for a team sponsored by UAE, given their human rights record and role in the conflict in Sudan. I don't blame him for signing with them as a young rider, or even for extending his original contract, but I was really saddened when he signed that huge extension last year. I like to think that if I was in Pog's position, I'd have taken my third TdF win and then been off to EF or somewhere with a less morally corrupt sponsor.

Don't get me wrong... I also don't agree with all the things said here. For example I totally do not believe in motor doping. My main issues are with things that you actually can give some foundation, e.g. the role of UAE as you highlighted. And for me that's also combined with figures like Gianetti. Yes I do not think Pogacar is clean, but thats just a feeling so I tend to stick to what can be materialized and that's the role his team plays, Gianetti, Matxin et cetera. For me enough reasons not to understand why he would be there if he cares about being clean. But then again you see this often where money plays a role.

 

[Rob5091]

Doping has always existed in some form, but the problem I have today is the economic end of it all. It used to be that a rider of some talent could find success, perhaps doped, even likely doped, in a playing field that, if not completely level, at least wasn't excessively skewed towards team budgets like today. Of course the justification of this today goes under the euphemism of simply being "more professional" amongst the richest teams. By contrast, now if your team isn't well-financed by tens of millions of euros beyond most of the competition, you simply don't have access to the best performance science and hence best doping to stand a chance in the most prestigious races. Everything has thus been reduced to the hegemony of buying power and, in a numbers based era, the game simply loses it's appeal when the money factor takes control. Because the science of performance and therefore doping has become so sophisticated that only the largest budget teams net results. And this is true of all sport today, in which the widening gap between rich and poor teams, reflective of societal trends of the wealth gap in general, has created a kind of class system inimical to even the concept of a level playing field. If great natural talent alone should be determining, then it shouldn't really matter (at least not as much as it does today) whether you're on a 50 million a year budget team or say 30 million a year one in terms of having a chance to play one's cards. Yet of course it does. This has resulted in the proverbial cycling "at two speeds," in a way that simply wasn't the case when I become a rider in the 80s.

The Inner ring blog just posted about all the money now in the sport comparing it to soccer.

 

[Extinction]

The Inner ring blog just posted about all the money now in the sport comparing it to soccer.

Sure, but relatively speaking, cycling is "poor". Can you Imagine a cyclist getting 60 million a year or whatever? They built a stadium in Brazil that wasn't even used for the reason for which it was built. That's capital for you and then they worry about recycling plastic on the consumer end..

 

[Extinction]

Don't get me wrong... I also don't agree with all the things said here. For example I totally do not believe in motor doping. My main issues are with things that you actually can give some foundation, e.g. the role of UAE as you highlighted. And for me that's also combined with figures like Gianetti. Yes I do not think Pogacar is clean, but thats just a feeling so I tend to stick to what can be materialized and that's the role his team plays, Gianetti, Matxin et cetera. For me enough reasons not to understand why he would be there if he cares about being clean. But then again you see this often where money plays a role.

Giving Gianetti petrol dollars and, sure, you get a GOAT.

 

[Unchained]

Sure, but relatively speaking, cycling is "poor". Can you Imagine a cyclist getting 60 million a year or whatever? They built a stadium in Brazil that wasn't even used for the reason for which it was built. That's capital for you and then they worry about recycling plastic on the consumer end..

Recently @ during TDF, Armstrong The Move podcast had discussion about prize money and rider compensation. TDF has almost no prize list.. About @500,000 and @50,000 start money per team. And many estimates reported that teams bring @40+ people to the Tour. And most of the higher end estimates are @55-60 million overall budget..

What are the budgets of the WorldTour cycling teams in 2024? -

Cycling teams often keep their actual budget figures under wraps, making it challenging to ascertain precise financial details. While Richard Plugge from Jumbo-Visma recently hinted that they might rank around 5th or 6th in terms of budgets this season, such statements are usually shrouded in...

procyclinguk.com

The World’s 10 Highest-Paid Athletes 2023

The Middle Eastern money flowing into golf and soccer has sports stars making more than ever—an estimated $1.1 billion in one year for these ten, beating the all-time record set in 2018.

www.forbes.com

Pog not a blip..

 

[Extinction]

Recently @ during TDF, Armstrong The Move podcast had discussion about prize money and rider compensation. TDF has almost no prize list.. About @500,000 and @50,000 start money per team. And many estimates reported that teams bring @40+ people to the Tour. And most of the higher end estimates are @55-60 million overall budget..

What are the budgets of the WorldTour cycling teams in 2024? -

Cycling teams often keep their actual budget figures under wraps, making it challenging to ascertain precise financial details. While Richard Plugge from Jumbo-Visma recently hinted that they might rank around 5th or 6th in terms of budgets this season, such statements are usually shrouded in...

procyclinguk.com

The World’s 10 Highest-Paid Athletes 2023

The Middle Eastern money flowing into golf and soccer has sports stars making more than ever—an estimated $1.1 billion in one year for these ten, beating the all-time record set in 2018.

www.forbes.com

Pog not a blip..

Nay, Pog is the best of all time for Armstrong. So, I ask myself, if Armstrong got the 10% boost with EPO, what's going on now in the 10% over that clean? Pogi beat Pantani by 3:45 under Gianetti. Are we serious?

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/G20mAD7TCj4?si=pjMLirkPZjTuEQ4_