Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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spalco said:
Ah, the glory of the Tour was actually built by guys who took whatever the *** they wanted because there were no rules against it, and the glory was furthered by guys who actively and openly fought against imposing any rules because they demanded the right to improve their performance with whatever they want.

But I suppose we are beyond wanting to watch methed out junkies drag themselves up the mountains in zig-zag...
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Right, sarcasm detected.

But with all due respect, you literally have been watched riders on a medical performance program (which is what I'll call it here) since... always.

At best the dope tests curtail the worse excesses, at worse they give power to the richer teams who can bypass the rules with more ease & also give the public an absolutely false impression of what they're seeing (& fuel rampant hypocrisy towards the rare guys who're caught). I mean for example we literally have people out there who think Froome was riding paniagua & Lance was a cheat. I'm sorry, but what the hell.

I don't pretend to have the answers here or a miracle solution, but I won't pretend Pogacar is some sort of symbol of "wrong" in the sport when I've been watching the exact same stuff (i.e. doping relative to the era) forever.
 
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Andon

Jul 14, 2017
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It was both hilarious and sad how much Pogacar was faking that he couldn't go much, much, faster than the other two. There was some point where Carapaz was dead tired from trying to pull ahead of Pogacar and Pog had like a clear smirk on his face like he wanted to burst to laughter when Carapaz couldn't do anything and Vingegaard dragged himself closer to them again. He had a quick "tick" that kind of looked like nose picking, then decided to take the stage win as everything was just so goddamn slow to him. I think he considered gifting the stage to Carapaz but he was just too slow to make it look proper.
 
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BlueRoads

BlueRoads

Jan 4, 2020
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Rackham said:
Right, sarcasm detected.

But with all due respect, you literally have been watched riders on a medical performance program (which is what I'll call it here) since... always.

At best the dope tests curtail the worse excesses, at worse they give power to the richer teams who can bypass the rules with more ease & also give the public an absolutely false impression of what they're seeing (& fuel rampant hypocrisy towards the rare guys who're caught). I mean for example we literally have people out there who think Froome was riding paniagua & Lance was a cheat. I'm sorry, but what the hell.

I don't pretend to have the answers here or a miracle solution, but I won't pretend Pogacar is some sort of symbol of "wrong" in the sport when I've been watching the exact same stuff (i.e. doping relative to the era) forever.
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What I always hope for is a level of doping that's muted, anti-doping work that helps to prevent the excesses really, yes.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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BlueRoads said:
What I always hope for is a level of doping that's muted, anti-doping work that helps to prevent the excesses really, yes.
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I was listening to Laurent Jalabert on French TV last week talking about how cycling for him wasn't a job per se, it was a passion. And he lived for & from his passion.

I think that right there is why the dope regulators have always had it all wrong, i.e. they treated cycling from the 1970's onwards as an industry with rules, obligations & laws like any other (with riders who're treated the same as a business in a shared market, i.e. subjected to regulations prohibiting certain behaviors giving them unfair advantages according to the lawmakers).

But cycling always seemed like a peloton filled with 180 crazy passionate guys racing as hard as they can, going as fast as they can & risking their lives going at 100km/h downhill from a col. I don't think they're normal, at all. And I don't think anyone makes it into the pro peloton being "normal" & just wanting a normal fair trade.

Cycling is a niche sport & based on history, only a few people really have the stomach to go through with it all the way & make it pro. I'm not excusing the doping (especially with the money since the 1980's it's clearly gone to places where some pretty shady people ala Michele Ferrari, Fuentes & co sought to make a profit from these guys), but I'm just looking into "why" the peloton dopes, doped & will continue to dope when all around them on the outside are so convinced they must ride clean.
 
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Danskebjerge

Jul 4, 2009
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Rackham said:
Cycling is a niche sport & based on history, only a few people really have the stomach to go through with it all the way & make it pro. I'm not excusing the doping (especially with the money since the 1980's it's clearly gone to places where some pretty shady people ala Michele Ferrari, Fuentes & co sought to make a profit from these guys), but I'm just looking into "why" the peloton dopes, doped & will continue to dope when all around them on the outside are so convinced they must ride clean.
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But under the current circumstances, with the testing going on, it's virtually impossible to dope safely without having a team supporting it. And not least: doctors who don't give a sh... about what they were educated for. So no, doping is not primarily an individual thing, it's organized.
 
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solo80k

Jul 3, 2018
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Mayomaniac said:
Pogacar doesn't seem to be that much better than everyone else on the really long (+45min) climbs. I know, the sample size is still really small, so maybe it's just a coincidence.
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It's about strategy... I'd say Pogacar did a meaningful mistake on Portet. He wasn't able to drop competition with multiple attacks and now they have his numbers more or less. If course he wasn't at his limit, but definitely outside the comfort zone. Now both Bernal and Roglic can prepare better. But knowing numbers doesn't mean you can physically do better.

I also think that such dominance won't last very long. In 2 years he will focus on TT gaps and neutralize mountain stages with a strong train as Froome did. Maybe I'm wrong but Pogi follows Dawg footsteps... with a little upgrade. He dominates early on first mountain stages and TT and then lower his performance later in the race. Of course he can win another stage but not in the crushing manner.
 
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Arked

Aug 6, 2015
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Savant12 said:
Riding effortless and then faking extreme tiredness after he's aced the stage seems to be his thing.
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How do you tell he is riding effortlessly? Because he is smiling slightly? What if this is his actual grimace of fatigue, which is very likely? Do people made an extensive profile of his facial expressions and cross referenced it with his known exertion/power output? Or is this all pulled straight out of... nowhere.
 
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BlueRoads

BlueRoads

Jan 4, 2020
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Arked said:
How do you tell he is riding effortlessly? Because he is smiling slightly? What if this is his actual grimace of fatigue, which is very likely? Do people made an extensive profile of his facial expressions and cross referenced it with his known exertion/power output? Or is this all pulled straight out of... nowhere.
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Facial expressions really hardly tell you anything - especially if you compare one rider to another. If anything you can compare a rider with himself on another day.
But the movements of the body and the bike are something else. If you have been watching a rider over a few races on easy and hard stages especially you will start to understand him a bit in that regard.

Yesterday, the way Pogacar sprinted to the line, he was clearly making a hard effort and had already done that during the stage, but he still had some power and his bike was steady, while Vingegaard and Carapaz humped their bike over the line.

I would hate to see Pogacar start grimacing just for the audience, and I don't think he will, he always looks rather effortless compared to others even if he makes an effort and that's not a bad thing. But it's not like you cannot see any visual hints of fatigue or strengths at all.
 
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Froome

Froome

Jan 29, 2021
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BlueRoads said:
Facial expressions really hardly tell you anything - especially if you compare one rider to another. If anything you can compare a rider with himself on another day.
But the movements of the body and the bike are something else. If you have been watching a rider over a few races on easy and hard stages especially you will start to understand him a bit in that regard.

Yesterday, the way Pogacar sprinted to the line, he was clearly making a hard effort and had already done that during the stage, but he still had some power and his bike was steady, while Vingegaard and Carapaz humped their bike over the line.

I would hate to see Pogacar start grimacing just for the audience, and I don't think he will, he always looks rather effortless compared to others even if he makes an effort and that's not a bad thing. But it's not like you cannot see any visual hints of fatigue or strengths at all.
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If facial expressions mattered, Quintana would never be tired.
 
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Krzysztof_O

Krzysztof_O

Jul 7, 2013
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As for Pogacar when he has a worse day he starts swinging on his bike a bit even when the tempo isn't the highest (when he feels good this can be observed only when he's riding really hard).

As for yesterday I believe he was trying really hard to get rid of his rivals but simply couldn't. Not sure if his form is a bit lower (than in first half of the tour) or maybe there were other factors (like head wind). Definitely I don't think he was saving himself, he wanted to win solo but wasn't much stronger than his rivals.
 
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topt

May 20, 2017
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Arked said:
How do you tell he is riding effortlessly? Because he is smiling slightly? What if this is his actual grimace of fatigue, which is very likely? Do people made an extensive profile of his facial expressions and cross referenced it with his known exertion/power output? Or is this all pulled straight out of... nowhere.
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some have decided what the truth is and are now looking for every dumb or non dumb "evidence" to make a stronger narrative
 
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fbjim

Jul 2, 2019
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saganftw said:
this was one of the most impressive perfomances in yellow jersey, most of time you see yellow to just defend, dont make efforts if you dont need to, but pog just rode because he could, no worries about recovery, no worries about cumulation of fatigue, he had 0 incentive to ride with both of them on his wheel and he would have won the stage anyway

you would need a monumental performance to gain just 30 seconds on pogacar, he is 3 levels above competition
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in a way i like it because it's very old school. that sort of "just so you know, no, i'm not on a bad day" attack is how you're supposed to ride in the yellow jersey, rather than hide endlessly in a line of superdomestiques ready to respond to attacks for you
 
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