Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[red_flanders]

Well by definition you never actually know. You either know that they're not clean, or you don't know. So really the last time we knew that we didn't know was Froome, who I would say was as on another level as Pogacar overall, though the ITT of Pogacar might be more distinctive. And I know everyone will say we know he's doping, but you actually don't, you just suspect it. LeMond might be less suspect but you ultimate no more know he was clean (or dirty) than you do Froome.

Stop it with the Froome. He was busted, they just decided they wanted to clear him. I know that’s not your main point, but....

 

[Cookster15]

You talk about logic and TD not being a good reference point because of above reasons. Yet reason 2 has nothing to do with Tom Dumoulin or any other rider. It does nothing to make the case that a certain rider would not be a good reference point.

As to number 1. Even if we accept this, Tom Dumoulin can still be a good reference point for the flat section of the TT. And Pogacar was very strong on that section too.

2 - is natural progression at a young age from an already high starting point.
1 - I think I made my point. Yes agree Pogacar crazy strong even on the flat. But no way was Tom at his best.

As I mentioned I am not saying what TP did was believable, I am saying the reasons given lack substance. Need to try harder.

 

[topcat]

Brajkovic, Roglic, Pogacar. The highest level of doping. Ppl really focus on progression of riders to either shout doping or credible. As if the drugs would work overnight.

 

[Scarponi]

If he was flying this much why wasn't he super duper strong on the mountains a couple of days before? or was it done with TT in mind.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

If he was flying this much why wasn't he super duper strong on the mountains a couple of days before? or was it done with TT in mind.

I honestly thought his cumulative efforts were catching up with him those last few days, as having watched very stage of this tour I got the impression he'd gone as deep as anyone. And that he certainly wouldn't be 'at his best' in that TT either. Clearly I had the wrong idea though, being a mere armchair cyclist, as after that stupendous performance we're already hearing from his trustworthy team management about his freakish recovery powers and genetic advantages.

Looking forward to Ross Tucker's podcast this week, he said he's adding an extra part given the need to accommodate everything that's happened in the last few days.

 

[red_flanders]

If he was flying this much why wasn't he super duper strong on the mountains a couple of days before? or was it done with TT in mind.

Now there's a good question.

The reality is that doped or not, folks have good days and bad days. Roglič clearly did not have a top day in the ITT. Pogačar clearly had an all-time day in the ITT. I don't think for a minute he was holding back before the ITT, risking significant time losses in the mountains so as not to take the lead, be behind by a minute, and rely on a magical performance on Stage 20 to take the win. There are a few potential explanations out there, maybe worth examining.

1. He was clean the whole race and had a great day on Stage 20
2. He was clean the whole race except for some kind of gas bus on Stage 20
3. He was on a program the whole race and had a great day on Stage 20
4. He was on a program the whole race and added some kind of gas bus on Stage 20
5. Everyone else at the top end had a sub-par performance on Stage 20 and Pogačar looked unreal by comparison

Given the numbers we can rule out #5. I have a hard time believing it's #2, where Pogačar wan't doped and then did up some magic potion the night before the ITT. Doesn't really comport with what we know about doping programs historically. My personal view is #3 or #4 are both entirely possible. People have great days.

What do you all think? Am I missing options?

 

[Escarabajo]

I wish we had this forum when Pantani set the record in Alpe D'Huez. I would have loved to see the explanations: Progression, new equipment, new nutrition, Italians ahead of the game, very talented at young age, tail wind, recently paved, etc.

There is always an excuse. There is no perfect scenario. Even if Pogacar had taken 3 minutes on the second there would be still an excuse. It is incredible. What would be a good reason for doping 8 watts/minute????

IMHO, if there is a smoking gun without a positive, this is it. Performance, age, timing of the performance, shady (very shady) coaches. This is in line with crazy performances of the past like Armstrong, Pantani and Riis IMHO.

 

[TomLPC]

That 'Metabolic Parameters' thing.

Absolutely love it, it's Brailsford-esque

 

[DFA123]

IMHO, if there is a smoking gun without a positive, this is it. Performance, age, timing of the performance, shady (very shady) coaches. This is in line with crazy performances of the past like Armstrong, Pantani and Riis IMHO.

Age is the one thing in his favour in all this. And is something that clearly separates him from the likes Armstrong, Pantani and Riis. A super talent who is (relatively) clean will almost always show great performances and results from a very young age. Which obviously isn't to say that young riders can't also dope. But it's not as a big red flag as a sudden transformation mid-career like Riis et al..

 

[tuckandgo]

Age is the one thing in his favour in all this. And is something that clearly separates him from the likes Armstrong, Pantani and Riis. A super talent who is (relatively) clean will almost always show great performances and results from a very young age. Which obviously isn't to say that young riders can't also dope. But it's not as a big red flag as a sudden transformation mid-career like Riis et al..

Yes, this.

I know half (okay, maybe 90%) just want to throw him out with the trash. And the other half (well, 10%) want to make some metabolic excuses.

But there is the consideration that he is just young, improving and the best in the world.

 

[Escarabajo]

Breaking through at young age is better or more credible than breaking through at later in your career. True. But, I meant that he is so young (you have to go back to 1904 to find another winner that young) and a first comer at the Tour. That in itself is weird. But that coupled with the performance and recovery and time record and shady coaches makes it very suspicious.

 

[Eclipse]

I honestly thought his cumulative efforts were catching up with him those last few days, as having watched very stage of this tour I got the impression he'd gone as deep as anyone. And that he certainly wouldn't be 'at his best' in that TT either. Clearly I had the wrong idea though, being a mere armchair cyclist, as after that stupendous performance we're already hearing from his trustworthy team management about his freakish recovery powers and genetic advantages.

He had a whole day of active recovery on the Friday which is all his elite physiology requires

 

[BlueRoads]

Maybe the fact that someone is young and obviously extremely talented does simply not mean he's not doping. I can see it is very suspicious in itself when a rider transforms to a world beater after many years. But that does not exclude young riders from doping.

 

[Rackham]

I honestly thought his cumulative efforts were catching up with him those last few days, as having watched very stage of this tour I got the impression he'd gone as deep as anyone. And that he certainly wouldn't be 'at his best' in that TT either.

Yes. Roglic had him beaten on Wednesday at the Col de la Loze (i.e. also using tactics with Sepp Kuss to create a gap but still able to ride away in the final steepest part of the climb). Pogacar wasn't the best "climber" (whatever that means anymore...) in this year's Tour (it was evenly matched at best), and nothing he'd shown in previous time trials gave me any indication regarding what was about to happen. I mean hell, Roglic didn't even collapse in the TT, despite the fact he was clearly panicking upon getting the time splits.

In 2020 after everything that has happened in this sport & world for decades upon decades, the onus is on the "mutant performers" to explain "how" it happened. As for "we the public"', we should never have to justify "why" we don't believe the stuff we're watching. Because when there's one guy crushing everyone else out of nowhere & considering "who "his team management are (i.e. the more-than-sinster Mauro Gianetti who is hilariously allowed to conduct business in the peloton when the only thing which marks him apart from Johan Bruyneel is the fact his rocket fuelled riders were a combination of serial losers & idiots in the Tour.. until Saturday), I think I'll remain very sceptical.

I do wonder how this will unfold in the future because either we've entered into a new era of nuclear fuelled LOL'ism rides, or after the Quintana stuff today "some people" might get scared & he'll never produce that sort of performance again. Wait & see.

 

[Koxx]

How so, that Pogacar will not ride the TT on upcoming World Champ., if his team and all the doctors are saying that he have super ability of fast recovery and extraordinary blood cells, and because that he is so young., etc.?

I mean, with all that super recovery, he would be ready in no time, to beat everybody on TT and could take also the World Champ. title in TT.


And... I think that it's not fair, to throw Pogacar and Roglic and all other Slovenia riders in same bucket.
The country of birth and nationality is all that they have in common, everything else is totally different world.
Especially the comparisons between Pogacar and Roglic.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Now there's a good question.

The reality is that doped or not, folks have good days and bad days. Roglič clearly did not have a top day in the ITT. Pogačar clearly had an all-time day in the ITT. I don't think for a minute he was holding back before the ITT, risking significant time losses in the mountains so as not to take the lead, be behind by a minute, and rely on a magical performance on Stage 20 to take the win. There are a few potential explanations out there, maybe worth examining.

1. He was clean the whole race and had a great day on Stage 20
2. He was clean the whole race except for some kind of gas bus on Stage 20
3. He was on a program the whole race and had a great day on Stage 20
4. He was on a program the whole race and added some kind of gas bus on Stage 20
5. Everyone else at the top end had a sub-par performance on Stage 20 and Pogačar looked unreal by comparison

Given the numbers we can rule out #5. I have a hard time believing it's #2, where Pogačar wan't doped and then did up some magic potion the night before the ITT. Doesn't really comport with what we know about doping programs historically. My personal view is #3 or #4 are both entirely possible. People have great days.

What do you all think? Am I missing options?

Not really completely distinct options, nor am I saying they're likely options, but in the spirit of comprehensiveness:

1. He used a bike with a motor on the flat to gain a little time while staying fresh for an all out assault on the climb.
2. He was clean the whole race and used some sort of gray area substance / TUE on stage 20.
3. He used some sort of gray area substance / TUE the whole race and had a great day on stage 20.
4. He used some sort of gray area substance / TUE the whole race and then went full on dark arts on stage 20.

 

[Samson777]

Breaking through at young age is better or more credible than breaking through at later in your career. True. But, I meant that he is so young (you have to go back to 1904 to find another winner that young) and a first comer at the Tour. That in itself is weird. But that coupled with the performance and recovery and time record and shady coaches makes it very suspicious.

Yes. So there is at least 3 angles to this, ownership, management and athlete.

Owners:
If you care about anti doping or at least wanna keep up a facade, why the f*** would you let Gianetti be in charge of your team. Clearly UAE does not care about this aspect. Which is fair enough one could argue, it's pro cycling after all, why bother.

Management:
Gianetti & Maxim never had a clean GT leader on their former teams, now with more backing and higher expectations, why in the world would they switch to a bread and water approach? Is this why they hired Dr. Scmidt and Íñigo San Millán?

Pogacar:
If he really wanted to take it as far as possible while riding paniagua, why would he chose to join UAE? Hardly the obvious choice, even in a sport filled with sketchy teams ( from a puritan doping perspective).

 

[pastronef]

btw; Among the general population in Slovenia, there is more questions then answers and a lot of mixed emotions with celebration of bitter victory.
People are somehow worried, that this victory would not be over time overturned to a major scandal.
As there are many discussions across the board on the odd super-recovery and ride of TP on TT.

general population so worried about that? I mean, also among the non cycling fans that just follow cycling as other sports too?
mmm, maybe you are more worried that them?

 

[Escarabajo]

Yes. So there is at least 3 angles to this, ownership, management and athlete.

Owners:
If you care about anti doping or at least wanna keep up a facade, why the f*** would you let Gianetti be in charge of your team. Clearly UAE does not care about this aspect. Which is fair enough one could argue, it's pro cycling after all, why bother.

Management:
Gianetti & Maxim never had a clean GT leader on their former teams, now with more backing and higher expectations, why in the world would they switch to a bread and water approach? Is this why they hired Dr. Scmidt and Íñigo San Millán?

Pogacar:
If he really wanted to take it as far as possible while riding paniagua, why would he chose to join UAE? Hardly the obvious choice, even in a sport filled with sketchy teams ( from a puritan doping perspective).

This is the part that is bothering me. And I feel like stupid fan discussing about it. If a casual person asked me, and they do because they know I watch cycling. what do I think about the winner then I have to tell them about these 2 idiots. My wife was the first one to ask me and then she tells me why in the ****k are the coaching a team??? UCI sometimes is just inept. I thought Patrick Lefevere was bad but these 2 take the cake.

 

[iceblink]

It's obvious a few riders were dodgy this tour, not just Pogacar (Porte and WvA also suspicious) - not sure about Roglic, but not a good look that shortly after a bust up over motor doping your form falls off a cliff...

Ineos clearly saw what was going on and pulled their stars early, no point wasting their efforts on this tour. Since Ineos got burnt with unethical TUE revelations they've had to play it clean and would have no chance against the illegal dopers. I actually think Ineos may have explored the limits of what's possible "legally" so thoroughly over the years that they can easily see how the current pandemic situation has enabled workarounds for the true dopers, and could easily spot who the suspects were. Thus the slightly snidey comment from Bernal that he was doing his best numbers but the others were just "too strong"

Mind you, makes the Richie Porte signing a bit controversial...

 

[macbindle]

You do know Porte rode for Sky, dont you

 

[iceblink]

You do know Porte rode for Sky, dont you

Of course, and he was one of the most admired domestiques in the peloton. Since leaving he had all those accidents which is enough to drive any man to....

 

[ppanther92]

And... I think that it's not fair, to throw Pogacar and Roglic and all other Slovenia riders in same bucket.
The country of birth and nationality is all that they have in common, everything else is totally different world.
Especially the comparisons between Pogacar and Roglic.

Well, I do not think that this is extremely unreasonable, tbh. Coming from a small country myself (Austria), I know that most of the pros here know each other well and often train together. Denifl and Preidler were never on the same team but both were involved in Operation Aderlass. As where other athletes from Austria (female cyclist, cross country skiers). You know, people talk with each other, sometimes even about shady contacts like doping doctors.

And speaking of Operation Aderlass - there was major Slovenian involvement too. Bozic and Koren got popped, as well as Durasek who apparently is at least linked to the Slovenian scene by racing for two Slovenian teams in the past. Then there is also a certain Milan Erzen involved.

Not saying that there are any hard links to Pogacar and Roglic but in the end a connection wouldn't be too far fetched either. A team mate of Pogacar, the man who "discovered" Roglic and two riders of the domestic scene.

 

[zlev11]

not sure about Roglic, but not a good look that shortly after a bust up over motor doping your form falls off a cliff...

Roglic was the strongest rider in the race the very next day

 

[Parker]

I wish we had this forum when Pantani set the record in Alpe D'Huez. I would have loved to see the explanations: Progression, new equipment, new nutrition, Italians ahead of the game, very talented at young age, tail wind, recently paved, etc.

There is always an excuse. There is no perfect scenario. Even if Pogacar had taken 3 minutes on the second there would be still an excuse. It is incredible. What would be a good reason for doping 8 watts/minute????

IMHO, if there is a smoking gun without a positive, this is it. Performance, age, timing of the performance, shady (very shady) coaches. This is in line with crazy performances of the past like Armstrong, Pantani and Riis IMHO.

Similarly if this forum watch a race with twelve years old kids, many would speculate what the winner was taking.

If the sport was entirely drug free and the drugs didn't even exist, someone would still win and often by big margins. The biggest lie a lot of people on this forum tell themselves is they want a clean sport. Yet fight against the idea with every half baked idea they can muster.