Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

Roglic absolutely did not need to do that.

But he did. The topic is about peak form in most important races and he had peak form in this Vuelta (and likely in the Tour). I could argue Pog didn't need to crush rivals on Le Grand Bornand.

 

[noob]

If it's not the team but him alone he has to enjoy it a lot or he wouldn't be so happy all the time. I want to see a motive to understand what's going on.

Because whatever is the truth he needs to be secretly quite devious if that's the case. And those things oftentimes shows off in some way or another, subtly or not, if one is observant.

And now my brain really really wants to know.

 

[BlueRoads]

I don't know how there can even be discussions or why we should restrict ourselves to "asking questions" in this case.

When I'm saying it's worse than Lance I am not talking about the character - Pogacar so far seems like a nice guy, no reason to think he's a narcisstic ***.
I also have to give it to him that he's a smart and cool racer with great technical ability, he's not just pushing the watts, and he doesn't do any nasty moves within the races.
But in terms of dominance over cycling and what this means for the sport it's worse, because he's not just targeting the Tour with these super-performances. Since he has this highly paid long term contract at UAE the only way out of total boredom that I see is the others joining him in whatever he's doing (or if they are doing the same, doing it to the same amount), so one would actually have to hope for that and that is just incredibly sad.

If the Tour 2020 with Peyresourde and especially the ITT was not enough to make your jaw drop, I don't know what is, but his 2021... From UAE Tour to now Lombardia he's just there exactly on the day when it matters, when he really wants to win - in February, in March, in April, in June, in July, in October, while in between in the Slovenian championships ITT he's able to beat Skok and Mugerli, but not Polanc and Tratnik. You could turn that into an argument that he's not an alien all year around, but no, none of this looks in any way natural. Add the people he's working with and it looks so ugly.

I don't even want to get into comparisons with Roglic or anybody else. Although I don't agree that the whole peloton is doped today, surely guys like Roglic and Alaphilippe are as well, but the thing about Pogacar is not just a question of fairness, morality or fear for his health, but simply that this is absolutely, like Rackham said, the stuff that takes the joy out of the sport if you aren't a special Pogacar fan who only wants to see him crush his competition again and again. It feels like the ultimate cheat mode, whatever happens in the race, in the moment Pogacar just comes up "oh, by the way, here I am, winner!" It feels like a child telling a story and not bothering to finish it carefully, so it just shouts "and then an asteroid fell down and everything was crushed and end".

 

[Netserk]

I don't think it was a given that he won yesterday nor Liège, and I think Rogla could have been competitive in the Tour (as much as in 2020), so I think he is far from the dominance of Lance.

While he won Tirreno in a stunning display of strength, it was still a great and enjoyable race, and he lost the next time in Itzulia.

 

[BlueRoads]

I don't think it was a given that he won yesterday nor Liège, and I think Rogla could have been competitive in the Tour (as much as in 2020), so I think he is far from the dominance of Lance.

While he won Tirreno in a stunning display of strength, it was still a great and enjoyable race, and he lost the next time in Itzulia.

Do you think there was a stronger rider than him in Liège or yesterday?
And while I don't want to rule out that Roglic would have been competitive in the Tour the thing is really that if Pogacar then just comes up with a time trial in the final week like his 2020 time trial, the rest doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Netserk]

Why do you think Ala was weaker than him in Liège?

 

[BlueRoads]

Why do you think Ala was weaker than him in Liège?

Because he was behind him in the end.
I know it's not easy to tell how much the positioning/ wind played a role, but I don't think Ala would have beaten him in any case.

 

[noob]

I don't know how there can even be discussions or why we should restrict ourselves to "asking questions" in this case.

When I'm saying it's worse than Lance I am not talking about the character - Pogacar so far seems like a nice guy, no reason to think he's a narcisstic ***.
I also have to give it to him that he's a smart and cool racer with great technical ability, he's not just pushing the watts, and he doesn't do any nasty moves within the races.
But in terms of dominance over cycling and what this means for the sport it's worse, because he's not just targeting the Tour with these super-performances. Since he has this highly paid long term contract at UAE the only way out of total boredom that I see is the others joining him in whatever he's doing (or if they are doing the same, doing it to the same amount), so one would actually have to hope for that and that is just incredibly sad.

If the Tour 2020 with Peyresourde and especially the ITT was not enough to make your jaw drop, I don't know what is, but his 2021... From UAE Tour to now Lombardia he's just there exactly on the day when it matters, when he really wants to win - in February, in March, in April, in June, in July, in October, while in between in the Slovenian championships ITT he's able to beat Skok and Mugerli, but not Polanc and Tratnik. You could turn that into an argument that he's not an alien all year around, but no, none of this looks in any way natural. Add the people he's working with and it looks so ugly.

I don't even want to get into comparisons with Roglic or anybody else. Although I don't agree that the whole peloton is doped today, surely guys like Roglic and Alaphilippe are as well, but the thing about Pogacar is not just a question of fairness, morality or fear for his health, but simply that this is absolutely, like Rackham said, the stuff that takes the joy out of the sport if you aren't a special Pogacar fan who only wants to see him crush his competition again and again. It feels like the ultimate cheat mode, whatever happens in the race, in the moment Pogacar just comes up "oh, by the way, here I am, winner!" It feels like a child telling a story and not bothering to finish it carefully, so it just shouts "and then an asteroid fell down and everything was crushed and end".

Thanks. Now I do understand what you mean. It's a horrible prospect for the whole peleton, I agree. And I don't doubt it apart from that nothing ever turns out the way we expect it to. <3 There's no heart smiley so I constantly comes off as weird alternating between heart eyes and sad face while I just mean empathy.

I think your description of a child is on point. It gives me the chills though. Because I recognize it

 

[BlueRoads]

Thanks. Now I do understand what you mean. It's a horrible prospect for the whole peleton, I agree. And I don't doubt it apart from that nothing ever turns out the way we expect it to. <3 There's no heart smiley so I constantly comes off as weird alternating between heart eyes and sad face while I just mean empathy.

I think your description of a child is on point. It gives me the chills though. Because I recognize it

Well, I mean it's allright, I have a new hobby now. I'm now writing rap songs.

 

[Breh]

Because he was behind him in the end.
I know it's not easy to tell how much the positioning/ wind played a role, but I don't think Ala would have beaten him in any case.

Meh, even Gaudu, Valverde and Woods were in that front group.
That sprint could have gone either way between Valverde, Alaphilippe and Pogacar, hardly an inexplicable display of power imo.

 

[Netserk]

Woods was the strongest on the final hills and made the selection, Ala the second strongest and rode away from Pogi (until Gaudu pulled Pogi and Valverde up to the front duo). I think it's perplexing to think that the result of the flat sprint determined the order of who the strongest riders were.

 

[topcat]

I don't think it was a given that he won yesterday nor Liège, and I think Rogla could have been competitive in the Tour (as much as in 2020), so I think he is far from the dominance of Lance.

While he won Tirreno in a stunning display of strength, it was still a great and enjoyable race, and he lost the next time in Itzulia.

I think Pog has stepped up from 2020. I agree he's beatable in the monuments (even though he won the two he targeted). In the tour it looks like he can do what he needs to do. It's a bit like Froome or Lance, even if Pog is much more likeable than them.

 

[hrotha]

Some people should chill a tiny bit. "Worse than Lance"? He's been dominant for exactly one season, he's won two Tours and two monuments. Armstrong won the Tour seven years in a row.

 

[Netserk]

Some people should chill a tiny bit. "Worse than Lance"? He's been dominant for exactly one season, he's won two Tours and two monuments. Armstrong won the Tour seven years in a row.

After the 2001 Tour, I take it most viewed Lance as invincible?

 

[topcat]

When the tour becomes a one horse race, it's a big deal to cycling fans.

 

[Riek s]

We saw with Froome that there is absolutely no interest in catching high profile dopers in cycling. Don't see this changing as this would blow the sport. So unfortunately i believe they are safe to continue whatever they are doing to make the EPO times look normal.

 

[Extinction]

I don't think it was a given that he won yesterday nor Liège, and I think Rogla could have been competitive in the Tour (as much as in 2020), so I think he is far from the dominance of Lance.

While he won Tirreno in a stunning display of strength, it was still a great and enjoyable race, and he lost the next time in Itzulia.

Lance was dominant in one race and one race alone, what Pogacar is doing is simply on a higher plain.

 

[Extinction]

To put into perspective what Pogacar has done: the only other rider to have won Liege-Tour-Lomabardia in the same year was Merckx in 71-72, but he was 26-27 years-old.

 

[Rackham]

To put into perspective what Pogacar has done: the only other rider to have won Liege-Tour-Lomabardia in the same year was Merckx in 71-72, but he was 26-27 years-old.

Yep, all under the management of Mauro Gianetti, i.e. Mr boss of Juan José Cobo, Ricco & Saunier Duval.

Ca fait tache, as the French say (aka it looks ugly). It's not like other teams aren't either run by ex dopers or employ ex dopers as well, but Gianetti is an extreme case.

 

[Extinction]

Yep, all under the management of Mauro Gianetti, i.e. Mr boss of Juan José Cobo, Ricco & Saunier Duval.

Ca fait tache, as the French say (aka it looks ugly). It's not like other teams aren't either run by ex dopers or employ ex dopers as well, but Gianetti is an extreme case.

It's just so obvious. Gianetti and the Arab money, not a good combo, so shady.

 

[Cookster15]

Cycling is a joke that people like Gianetti and Riis are allowed to run professional teams.

 

[Rackham]

It's just so obvious. Gianetti and the Arab money, not a good combo, so shady.

Give Pog another year of ultra dominance & we'll have another Armstrong situation but with state backing this time, not just a bunch of cowboys role playing at being mad scientists & Vito Corleone.

It's worse than Froome, i.e. with Froome's dominance in the Tour & other GT's very much a product of a unique problem in that era (Sky, which started when Bradley Wiggins of all people won the Tour & the Brits dominated the 2012 Olympics to an unnatural degree) but even then, as a viewer I got the impression it was the opposition which was just not up to the right standard (Contador was past his best years, partially due to the 2010 situation whilst riders like Bardet & Uran were never really going to rival him).

Pogacar though is destroying riders who themselves could be called heirs to the best ever in the sport (Rog in GT's, WvA, Alaph in the classics, MvdP etc. & even Bernal at SkyIneos) have incredible numbers & look like the 2020's equivalent of the stars of the 1990's who got butchered by Lance in the Tour, i.e. watching Pog ride away yesterday with relative ease or watching him on the Grand Bornand stage in the Tour is like watching Lance blow Pantani off his wheel on Hautacam. Or his TT last year at the Planche was like the 1999 TT when Lance obliterated Olano.

As you said, so obvious (too obvious in fact & I think this could go wrong for everyone, even with his backing).

 

[Extinction]

Give Pog another year of ultra dominance & we'll have another Armstrong situation but with state backing this time, not just a bunch of cowboys role playing at being mad scientists & Vito Corleone.

It's worse than Froome, i.e. with Froome's dominance in the Tour & other GT's very much a product of a unique problem in that era (Sky, which started when Bradley Wiggins of all people won the Tour & the Brits dominated the 2012 Olympics to an unnatural degree) but even then, as a viewer I got the impression it was the opposition which was just not up to the right standard (Contador was past his best years, partially due to the 2010 situation whilst riders like Bardet & Uran were never really going to rival him).

Pogacar though is destroying riders who themselves could be called heirs to the best ever in the sport (Rog in GT's, WvA, Alaph in the classics, MvdP etc. & even Bernal at SkyIneos) have incredible numbers & look like the 2020's equivalent of the stars of the 1990's who got butchered by Lance in the Tour, i.e. watching Pog ride away yesterday with relative ease or watching him on the Grand Bornand stage in the Tour is like watching Lance blow Pantani off his wheel on Hautacam. Or his TT last year at the Planche was like the 1999 TT when Lance obliterated Olano.

As you said, so obvious (too obvious in fact & I think this could go wrong for everyone, even with his backing).

The Lance blowing away Pantani on Hautacam is misleading . Too much coke and depression to be the figure il Panta was prior to his disgrace. Lance would have succumbed to a top Pantani on any mountain. As for the rest, Pogacar is doing things that only Merckx and then Hinault were capable of, with the added bonus (onus?) of doing them a by a mere 23 years-old. Not even Merckx or Hinault was that good. Unbelievable. And he is surprisingly "normal" as people go and doesn't seem to have exceptional physical prowess. He is the Clark Kent of sports evidently.

 

[noob]

As you said, so obvious (too obvious in fact & I think this could go wrong for everyone, even with his backing).

It will crack sooner or later. It always does at some point. A big conspiracy simply cannot last. Someone talks sooner or later, some journalist or podcast or whatever starts to dig. It's just inevitable. It's probably not going to be pretty though.

People like myself are going to be curious.

 

[Breh]

When the tour becomes a one horse race, it's a big deal to cycling fans.

Is it tho?
I'm not convinced Pogi wins that easy when Roglic is in the picture.