I have been dismissive of the motor doping theory in the motor doping thread but I am starting to reconsider.
- Jul 21, 2024
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I feel especially obtuse today, sorry. Unless you are being sarcastic (which is fine if you are), what part of my message would you like me to elaborate on?
For the sake of spitballing, what are the thoughts on Pogacar getting a new coach this year? Related to his performance improvements or not, both in a training and clinic sense? Or part of the smokescreen? Or to avoid throwing up red flags for the original coach when he suddenly started pushing 5-10% more power overnight?
- Jul 21, 2024
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Thanks for reminding of that one. I recall it as a good chuckle. The participant Mou, the alleged insider, actually made a point out of it. His narrative was that, finally, Toddy got himself a "normal" coach and was actually going to do something else besides that famous "zone 2" easy riding for training. So everyone would better expect some serious gains, implying that the relative scale thereof was going to be comparable to what a total novice just starting serious training could see. Shortly thereafter, lo and behold, the gains came along. Indeed what else did you expect? The chap just was getting serious about the sport.
- Jan 8, 2020
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I wasn't being sarcastic.🙂 "I get an impression that most people even here tend to still give too much credit to the level of decency and intelligence of the current monopolized system and to the powers of today's science which is considered capable of producing some miraculous "genetic doping", for example."
I'm interested in clarification on this statement and particularly the italicsed. I think you mean that one team or a very select number have the economic resources to gain access to the best programs. And that most fans chalk up the stellar feats we get, in this case Pogacar's, to just the new level of sophistcation in current performance science and not through illicit means. If this is correct, and I'm really not sure if you intended this, then I'm still perplexed by the same people thinking licit means would include miraculous "genetic doping"? So basically, I guess, I have no idea what you're talking about.🤷
PS: Unless you mean that the science isn't so advanced ("genetic doping") to achieve Pog's result without pharmachological means.
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from the Weightweenies foorum
Not sure if you guys have read it but these two paper by Dr. San Millan (UAE coach, and Pog's personal coach until 2023) dive pretty deep into his metabolomics and the finding is pretty nuts. In short he has insane aerobic capacity, have very high lactate threshold (the highest in the test) among the test subjects (20+ UAE riders), have the ability to metabolise fat very very efficiently with little metabolites. A clean efficient engine with big fuel tank that can repeatedly attack essentially.
Interestingly one of the paper collect blood sample from 2019 amgen ToC through out the race and it shows that Pogacar has some of the best ability to maintain freshness for a long stage racing.
Obviously none of the paper cite the name nor the team but it's so easy to guess. They even layout the exact distance, gradient of the climb of the stage race they collect the sample from. That race is 2019 Amgen TOC. "Cyclist 1" is Tadej Pogacar.
The paper is more nuanced of course, so go check it out. San Millan certainly enjoy the benefit of having access to WT team and did not hesitate to use that access in his study.
www.frontiersin.org
link.springer.com
Not sure if you guys have read it but these two paper by Dr. San Millan (UAE coach, and Pog's personal coach until 2023) dive pretty deep into his metabolomics and the finding is pretty nuts. In short he has insane aerobic capacity, have very high lactate threshold (the highest in the test) among the test subjects (20+ UAE riders), have the ability to metabolise fat very very efficiently with little metabolites. A clean efficient engine with big fuel tank that can repeatedly attack essentially.
Interestingly one of the paper collect blood sample from 2019 amgen ToC through out the race and it shows that Pogacar has some of the best ability to maintain freshness for a long stage racing.
Obviously none of the paper cite the name nor the team but it's so easy to guess. They even layout the exact distance, gradient of the climb of the stage race they collect the sample from. That race is 2019 Amgen TOC. "Cyclist 1" is Tadej Pogacar.
The paper is more nuanced of course, so go check it out. San Millan certainly enjoy the benefit of having access to WT team and did not hesitate to use that access in his study.
Frontiers | Metabolomics of Endurance Capacity in World Tour Professional Cyclists
The study of elite athletes provides a unique opportunity to define the upper limits of human physiology and performance. Across a variety of sports, these i...
www.frontiersin.org
Metabolic Signatures of Performance in Elite World Tour Professional Male Cyclists - Sports Medicine
Background and Objective Metabolomics studies of recreational and elite athletes have been so far limited to venipuncture-dependent blood sample collection in the setting of controlled training and medical facilities. However, limited to no information is currently available to determine if...
link.springer.com
- Mar 19, 2009
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What about "Ancient Aliens and the Tour de France"? The signs are obviously there. It's so old, like it smartphones didn't exist, so all we have are rather bad depictions, some cave paintings or, which is totally similar, black and white photographs. So first of: how do we know that the "official" history of cycling isn't leaving out it's extraterrestrial origins. On top of that: A bike is as suspiciously smart idea to have for stupid humans. As Ancient Alien Theorist believe all great inventions came actually from Aliens, therefore the bike is from extraterrestrial origin.
But now, to get to the point in question here, Pogacars absurd powers, we just have to see what is plainly in sight but usually missed by everyone: he hair! As we all know Tesla showed that there is free energy in the atmosphere, you just need a means to get it. And this is clearly where Pogacars hair comes in, always stickig out of the helmet, always tapping in to the earth EM field. The fact, that the presenter of Ancient Aliens has very electrified hair here serves not as proof, but as a strong sign that we are thinking in the right direction here. Aliens apparently, as we can now deduce, have mastered the Art of getting energy "from the air through the hair", It even sounds catchy, so the probability goes up further.
To think though that Pogacar is himself an Alien is probably not going far enough, the truth is even more magnificent (and therefore true) than this. Pogacar most likely is part of the Prometheus Initiative, meant to bring humanity the "fire of the gods" i.e. Ancient Aliens. As humanity isn't ready for any of this outside of the audience of the History Channel, the truth has to be spread in signs and riddles, just like with the old religious texts.
So it is us, the cycling observing community, who have been cleary chosen to bring this matter to the light, chosen by no one less than Pogacar himself, which is why he uses alien technology to do stuff so outrageous on a bike, that smart people like us can come to the correct conclusions. The "Motordoping" theory is just a smokescreen our mind erects to shield us from this deeper truth.
Superhuman things done on a bike (of extraterrestial origin remember), conquering mythical climbs once chosen by the Ancient Aliens themselves as proving grounds for us, is not only unbelievable, it is proof!
- Sep 30, 2024
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For many years (really before the mutants came into being), I was sure the experts were clear about the human limit when it comes to cycling. That chart Andrew Coggan made was supposed to show the limits, right?
https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare
People will believe anything. I think the mutants' teams get a thrill out of fooling the average fan—just like Armstrong did. He didn’t only dope, he also rubbed it in with sayings like:
“The last thing I’ll say for the people that don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics, I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big, and I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles...”
But why didn’t Pogacar ride with a bike computer in the last race? 🤔
A statement?
- Mar 19, 2009
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He said he rather rides by heart rate rather than watts, so maybe he really likes riding without any of that stuff and just has a very good feel for his performance. Not sure if I'd read more into it than that.
- Jan 8, 2020
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Well his VO2 max isn't among the best and, really, can we believe a study conducted in-house? It's like, but who polices the police?from the Weightweenies foorum
Not sure if you guys have read it but these two paper by Dr. San Millan (UAE coach, and Pog's personal coach until 2023) dive pretty deep into his metabolomics and the finding is pretty nuts. In short he has insane aerobic capacity, have very high lactate threshold (the highest in the test) among the test subjects (20+ UAE riders), have the ability to metabolise fat very very efficiently with little metabolites. A clean efficient engine with big fuel tank that can repeatedly attack essentially.
Interestingly one of the paper collect blood sample from 2019 amgen ToC through out the race and it shows that Pogacar has some of the best ability to maintain freshness for a long stage racing.
Obviously none of the paper cite the name nor the team but it's so easy to guess. They even layout the exact distance, gradient of the climb of the stage race they collect the sample from. That race is 2019 Amgen TOC. "Cyclist 1" is Tadej Pogacar.
The paper is more nuanced of course, so go check it out. San Millan certainly enjoy the benefit of having access to WT team and did not hesitate to use that access in his study.
Frontiers | Metabolomics of Endurance Capacity in World Tour Professional Cyclists
The study of elite athletes provides a unique opportunity to define the upper limits of human physiology and performance. Across a variety of sports, these i...
Metabolic Signatures of Performance in Elite World Tour Professional Male Cyclists - Sports Medicine
Background and Objective Metabolomics studies of recreational and elite athletes have been so far limited to venipuncture-dependent blood sample collection in the setting of controlled training and medical facilities. However, limited to no information is currently available to determine if...
- Sep 14, 2009
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It's like some sort of weird version of a Shania Twain song ... "OK, so you're talented. But that don't impress me much ..."
On the other hand, I believe Contadope, Pharmstrong, and Big Mig all also had studies demonstrating genetic superiority. And surprise, surprise, they also doped.
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I want to see independent studies without vested interests.
- Jul 7, 2013
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if UAE wanted they could actually test Teddy "in top form" and show off his incredible result (high 90s guaranteed IMO) proving to the world his talent. But VO2max isn't something naturally constant (indicating natural talent or whatever), it's strongly affected by blood doping. Obviously if someone scores super high value (even after doping) he's surely very talented but it's not some ultimate doping-independent talent measure.
It's like the marginal gains etc bs. Just something to make the big audience believe in stupid things, like "yeah the performances are a lot better than even the super doped riders had, but his clean. He just has this super metabolism, lactate clearance and aerobic capacity. It has never ever been seen before, he was already the best, last winter he finally started training properly and now you can see his true extra terrestial level"
Like yeah sure 😂wonder why these super human abilities didnt show anything before joining UAE. If that "study" would be true, our boy would have dominated from way earlier.
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- Jul 21, 2024
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I guess I said it a bit awkwardly. Let me try to correct it a bit. First, about the modern science. I meant that what today’s science is doing best is blowing smoke as opposed to achieving real progress. Like, for example, fundamental theoretical physics still has no idea what electric charge is while keeping itself busy with figuring out how the extra dimensions of space (of which there are, allegedly, at least six) curl up into “Planck scale size” to give rise, in particular, to the observed spectrum of elementary particles. (Needless to say, electric charges are reality that needs to be understood, and extra dimensions is a bunch of hooey.) So, given the subject matter discussed here, I simply meant to say that no miraculous “genetic doping” capable of changing Toddy’s biology to the extent of him being able to produce the results we are now witnessing (while literally breaking no sweat, to boot) is quite simply well beyond the modern science’s capability. Just like a sucessfull expedition to Mars (or even Moon) is beyond the said capability. So, given the choice – as means of a rational explanation – between a minor scientific miracle and blatant cheating (electromagnetic battery powered propulsion system hidden inside his bike, in our case), one should lean to the latter.
As to the italicized words in your reply, they would take me a little longer to properly elaborate on but let me just try to sketch it. As K. Marx showed in “Das Kapital” a century and a half ago, the only constant of capitalism is the ever increasing capital’s concentration and centralization. Following that inevitable tendency, capitalism entered its monopolistic phase in late XIX century that was succeeded by the state-monopolistic one and later, roughly in the last third of XX century, by the global monopolistic one which is now fairly ripe (and thus is beginning to rot). That lack of any independent investigative journalism mentioned recently in this thread many times is pretty much a direct consequence of that ultra monopolization. To put it simply, one could say that everything now sits in the same pocket and people with very different job descriptions get paid from the same source (and their real job duties often differ quite a bit from the “official” job description). That lack of real competition works against keeping the system “honest” (it tends to lose its “decency”). As to intelligence, the system, being so ripe, also loses its progressive tendencies and takes on an ultra-conservative status-quo maintaining character thereby becoming progress-averse and anti-intellectual.
In application to the issue discussed here, this means that what sounds quite stupid and ridiculously blatant (like turning pro cycling of WWE version) should be considered fully possible. For the system, it is just one of many entertainment industries that exist for profit and as means of control of masses (a form of the proverbial “brainwash”). So, making what was already somewhat of a circus into a full-blown circus is really no biggie, from the system’s point of view. That is unless the target audience just refuses to buy it at the moment which, by now, they realized it does not.
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The science itself is bound to the same market demands and capital that explains why Pog and his entourage aren't being pressed by journalistic integrity. That which goes against the interests of capital, is simply ignored. And yet the elephant stands among us.
While capital concentrates it's not that it results in one communist-like entity that controls everything on the planet. The problem of capital concentration is that it creates entities, like UAE for example, that are too big and too influencial to control by a sports body, especially a minor one like the UCI. For the same reason many countries cannot handle the likes of Apple or Google within the rules of their system without making exemptions and adaptions (official and unofficial) as their lobby and impact of their products is just too big. Normally this shouldn't be a big deal as the big players don't care about cycling unless there is real interest for whatever reason. Countries with endless pools of money that use cycling for promotional purposes is toxic for our sport. Astana, Bahrein and now UAE ... they all have their issues.
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But, of course, capital is the state and thus when UAE is too big to fail then the UCI, which should govern the sport, gets governed by capital.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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I'd be interested to know more about genetic doping and if this might explain what we are seeing? Why wouldn't genetic doping also run the risk of triggering an adverse finding in the athlete biological passport? You would have to work around the markers tracked in the passport and still get a performance boost - mitochondria?
Do you believe motors are in use in the WT peloton in any meaningful way currently?
- Mar 19, 2009
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So while I believe the first boldend-italicised part to be correct, I have trouble with the second part, and therefore in the end with the entire reasoning.
Are you suggesting that it's outside our engeneering and scienfitic possibilities to land on the moon? Mars is a different issue, but the moon has been done before and with much lesser tech than today. Ofc you could argue that it didn't happen, but that would be fantastic for quite simple reasons: first, you gotta shoot the Saturn 5 into LEO, because people actually witnessed the start, once you've done this it's ofc harder to get out of LEO, but that's a scaling issue after you can get a gigantic rocket into LEO. Second: if the Americans didn't land on the moon, what on earth stopped the Soviets from making this public, this kind of *** can be observed and will have been observed.
Now that this is out of the water:
Basically you don't need a scientifically fully explainable effect if you "experiment" with substances. It's completely thinkable that a substance is used to augment an organism which isn't fully understood in itself or it's precise effects yet causes great (beneficial or not) changes in the organisms physiology. E.g. we don't understand how anesthesia turns off consciousness, yet it works with different substances. So you don't need a working theory, just a working effect. And who knows which modern or old medicine might have a huge influence on what e.g. cyclists can do on a bike, It just needs to exist, it doesn't have to be understood. Also you can quantify the effects even if you don't know what brings them about, and therefore calculate with them and use them to take a rational approach of how to deal with them, even without any deeper understanding of them.
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Nothing says high tec more then eating sodium bicarbonate with a wooden spoon ...
- Jul 7, 2013
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Nothing says high tec more then eating sodium bicarbonate with a wooden spoon ...
What kind of spoon did you expect from Woods? Teddy uses a metal one, which is his secret super power.
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