Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Oldermanish]

Yeah how would increasing hematocrit possibly help an endurance athlete? It boggles the mind...

Have you even looked at the effects of exposure? Short term (5minutes) of low level brings on nausea, vomiting...When you see the movie scenes where a distraught individual connects his car tailpipe to a hose into the cab and runs the engine; how long does that concentration take to cause harm? 5-10 minutes, depending on concentration. By harm; I mean death.
To your point; how could it possibly increase hematocrit? Test results are inconclusive as the subject is dead.

 

[noob]

Instead of asking for Walsh how about Juliet Macur? She seems to be still around. And on New York Times. She could do it as a follow up on the Lance story...

 

[Ripper]

Have you even looked at the effects of exposure? Short term (5minutes) of low level brings on nausea, vomiting...When you see the movie scenes where a distraught individual connects his car tailpipe to a hose into the cab and runs the engine; how long does that concentration take to cause harm? 5-10 minutes, depending on concentration. By harm; I mean death.
To your point; how could it possibly increase hematocrit? Test results are inconclusive as the subject is dead.

I think @Monoxidator might have some studies for you

 

[Extinction]

Well, I sincerely disagree. Sport is not about admiring the genetics of some rare specimens. Rather it is about working with what you have and making the most of it. As an engineer I always like challenges and I dislike any "lucky starting conditions" - such as being born a king, having billionare parents or rare genetics.
Yes, what is not banned is not doping. Using your brain to gain an advantage is exactly what is the basis of Homo Sapiens. We didn't compete with lions with our muscles but with our intellect.
I have nothing whatsoever against using anything that works. I'm all for strict adherence to the rules, the common moral principles as not destroying other people. I'm also all for innovation and don't fear pharmacological, physical, genetical, psychological, .. other methods.
(please don't ask about motors - it is silly - using motors in cycling comp is like using computers in a human chess match - changes the whole point of it)
While most people accept using wind tunnels and fluid dynamics to engineer new helmets, bikes, skinsuits, positions etc, most people also frown at anything administered using a syringe. Not me. Medicine/pharmacy is 80% of our quality of life; our genetics has actually gotten worse since the dark ages.
Going into the future, we're going to rely on it more and more. People will start using neural implants, prostethics, aestethic surgery, genetic modification more and more.
So for sport to not turn into modern luddism, the thinking and acceptance will need to adapt as well.

I don't even know where to begin, so I shall limit myself to a few casual observations. According to the IOC Athletes' Rights and Responsibilities: 2. Be part of a transparent, fair and clean sporting environment, particularly one that fights against doping and competition manipulation...This is the basis of what constitutes "fair play". It is built into the guiding principles of the World Anti-Doping Agency and the Olympic Charter. So, yes, sport is "officially" (note the quotation marks) about relying upon genetics as the primary deteriminant of excellence, within the context of transparency during preparation and practice in the sporting environment. Hard work, using your mind, etc., to overcome natural handicaps is all fine and to be encouraged of course. But by your logic we may as well allow them to put anything in their bodies that is deemed pharmachologically beneficial to performance enhancement, so long as it's not banned and hence against the "rules" at the time. The obvious problem with this philosophy, which is riddled with cynicisim and moral causistry, is that it doesn't meet even the basic criteria of "fair play" or the fight against doping by any standards, not to mention the potential health risks involved. And it's one thing to take access to medical advancements for legitimate health reasons, entirely another for the purposes of doping. This is so basic that it shouldn't be necessary to restate; while doping, yes, exists even before taking a substance is prohibited, based on the rule of retroactive testing. Anything else is vapid sophistry. For the rest see Raest's most excellent post.

You are advocating a kind of pharmachological relativism, a "Far West" of the sport environment, in which ethical standards only need to meet a criteria of "if it will improve my performance and isn't prohibited (yet), then it is just and even virtuous to use it", in a carte blanche driven, frenzied quest to reach ever further performance horizens. Well I'd say this accurately describes the present state of affairs. Let anyone make what they want of it, but no philosophy of ethics (save Machiavelli's of course) has ever approved of it. If the antithesis of modern sport luddism in the medical sense means adhearing to this Machiavellian state, which it largely already has, then I'm definitively out thank you. Pogacar may even be the catalyst for my exit, out of sheer boredom and lack of enthusiasm.

Unfortunately there are those who are simply better than us, who were simply born with superior genetics and, all other things being equal, should come out on top. We must accept this, but what you promote is rising to the challenge through any means available, just because it's available, which sanctions a "the ends justify the means" principle. It is dangerous and potentially immoral. But, hey, I'm following the rules, so my conscience is clean isn't that right? All the other stuff is performance science and tech related, which, as long as it doesn't constitute illicit practice, shall be consented (even if the market has distorted the effects and outcomes to such a degree, through unequal access and distribution, that it makes me wonder about the fate of sport). But I wouldn't want your take on things to be the applied mental habits behind the principles that govern us. Oh God, no. The world, including that of sport, is already in a perilous enough state.

PS: When you have been on a group training ride and someone out of the blue falls down and dies on the spot, because his heart could no longer pump blood that turned sludge, you might gain a different perpective (or raced clean against dopers who got busted, depriving you of the actual result you deserved on the day). Just a thought or perhaps a cautionary anectode to the disappointed idealist inside every cynic.

 

[glassmoon]

Teddy is popular and brings in a lot of money and fans... nothing will happen until he f-ks up with someone high up or get too greedy for the rest of the peloton to accept.
How are the next few WCH looking - I think he could potentially win 4 in the row?

 

[peterfin]

My predicion is that we will know more when this thread has more post than the Pogacar fans thread.

 

[Nick2413]

Have you even looked at the effects of exposure? Short term (5minutes) of low level brings on nausea, vomiting...When you see the movie scenes where a distraught individual connects his car tailpipe to a hose into the cab and runs the engine; how long does that concentration take to cause harm? 5-10 minutes, depending on concentration. By harm; I mean death.
To your point; how could it possibly increase hematocrit? Test results are inconclusive as the subject is dead.

The protocol I’ve seen is take it in small doses where they hold a couple breathfuls for 30 sec each and it takes several hours to leave the bloodstream so basically functions like a more effective version of altitude training.

 

[E_F_]

Instead of asking for Walsh how about Juliet Macur? She seems to be still around. And on New York Times. She could do it as a follow up on the Lance story...

Considering The New York Times' role in bringing UFO BS into the mainstream, I think we'd more likely get a story on Pogi's extra-terrestrial origins, than any doping bust, unfortunately.

 

[rghysens]

How are the next few WCH looking - I think he could potentially win 4 in the row?

Yes.
Kigali is basically a continuous Oude Kwaremont-Paterberg-Koppenberg loop with fewer cobbles, but a double climb of the Xorret de Cati 2/3 along the way. Montreal is the same course he won on twice, but 50km longer, and in 2027 we´ll have the course Hinault won on in 1980 and where only 15 riders finished.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think @Monoxidator might have some studies for you

Yes...I'm sure it might have some minor, short term effacy as it stresses the sh*t out of your cardio-pulmonary system. And how could anyone get hurt trying this out on a local level?
Just sleep in a pressurized room for altitude acclimation. It's legal, still.

As for a UAE staff willing to do anything to achieve a win: I totally agree that is a possibility. There's that willingness and the likely consequences dealing with UAE ownership should they fail. It's not like they adhere to a stringent code of ethical behavior on a national level when royalty "owns" the operation.

 

[Stablo]

I'm beginning to feel like it's more plausible than not... I don't really see how bio-doping is capable of producing these (jumps in) numbers.

Somehow im starting to feel this way too. Would explain the how effortlessly Poggie drives all the others off his wheel, while looking very fresh after absolute monster performances and basically never getting tired. To get an extra 60-100w for some periods of time would help a lot 😉.

KERS was in F1 almost 20 years ago, by now one would think you could add that kind of energy harvesting system to a much smaller device. UAE:s unlimited resources might be enough to get some really hightech "motor", that collects energy from breaking etc. and allows you to use extra watts regularly during the race. Would explain Teddys meteoric rise too. Imho on a level playing field Tadej wouldn't be even a top5 rider, nothing before UAE indicated to that direction. Now his not only top5, but the super dominant number one and has a season we have never seen in modern cycling.

Im totally 50/50 motor vs regular doping or both in Poggies and UAE:s case. Here is an interesting documentary on the motor topic: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...s-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/
For example Greg Lemond is sure there is and has been motors in pro cycling. The documentary is seven years old and the technology has surely taken leaps since then.

 

[Casual cyclist]

One thing we can say is that the numbers produced by Pogacar this season are mightily impressive even if you believe that he is doping. No other rider in history, doped or otherwise, has managed to produce those sorts of numbers before. Whatever magic cocktail they have found has managed to produce record speeds on long and medium mountain climbs.

Visually what strikes me this season is that when he attacks, some other riders can only hold his wheel for 15/20 seconds before they simply have to let go. Most don't even bother responding to his attacks. Yet he can sustain this speed for several kilometres thereafter. Yet at the end of the race he still looks as fresh as a daisy. After Sundays gruelling ride he took off his helmet and he was barely sweating! Whatever you think is behind these performances its incredible the number of super human rides he has produced this season.

Good observations right there. No sweat means no body heat which implies that either the power production of the body was low or the efficiency of said body was much closer to 100% than previously believed. Incidentally, in his first superhuman performance in that 2020 TDF TT that robbed Roglic of the yellow jersey, he actually did look labored and sweaty towards the end of the climb. He blitzed that one as we know, but that performance looked normal for a good biologically doped climber assuming he started the climb fresh. The clearly abnormal part of that TT was the flat one where he went faster than specialists while sitting in a "coal miner" position, in blatant disregard of that pesky air resistance.

What I am curious about is how many W/kg for how long he would have to de before most people here begin drawing a line between what's possible and what's not with the help of a good old biological doping. Would, say, 10W/kg for an hour be sufficient for that? I get an impression that most people even here tend to still give too much credit to the level of decency and intelligence of the current monopolized system and to the powers of today's science which is considered capable of producing some miraculous "genetic doping", for example. Were something like that real we wouldn't have, for instance, the high jump record of 2.45 standing for decades with nobody capable to even get close.

An hypothetical example from a different field. If it had been "officially" (i.e. in a TV program and on major online resources) announced (I am not talking about distant future here) that the first expedition to Mars successfully landed, complete with "footage" of the silo tower "Starship" standing on the background of yellow-orange sky and some yellowish hills, how many people here would have called BS right away as opposed to starting to muse about "them" having finally solved the technical problem associated with possibility of such a voyage.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Somehow im starting to feel this way too. Would explain the how effortlessly Poggie drives all the others off his wheel, while looking very fresh after absolute monster performances and basically never getting tired. To get an extra 60-100w for some periods of time would help a lot 😉.

KERS was in F1 almost 20 years ago, by now one would think you could add that kind of energy harvesting system to a much smaller device. UAE:s unlimited resources might be enough to get some really hightech "motor", that collects energy from breaking etc. and allows you to use extra watts regularly during the race. Would explain Teddys meteoric rise too. Imho on a level playing field Tadej wouldn't be even a top5 rider, nothing before UAE indicated to that direction. Now his not only top5, but the super dominant number one and has a season we have never seen in modern cycling.

Im totally 50/50 motor vs regular doping or both in Poggies and UAE:s case. Here is an interesting documentary on the motor topic: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...s-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/
For example Greg Lemond is sure there is and has been motors in pro cycling. The documentary is seven years old and the technology has surely taken leaps since then.

I don't even think anything as fancy as regenerative braking would be needed. I'm sure that the source of energy used is the good old li-ion cells. They have a high enough energy density for what's needed here. As you said, no more than an occasional 100W is really needed. If one wants this for, say, total of 30min, it is only 25 Wh worth of energy, or simply just two or three 18650 cells with a total mass of less than 100 to 150 grams. As I have already pointed out, it seems that the motor itself has evolved recently. In 2020 and 2021 it was likely just a good old brushless motor the use of which necessitated either a bike change or rainy cold weather. This year, it looks like some distributed EM propulsion system with better heat dissipation was installed making the use of it easier and less conspicuous. What helps hiding it better now is also the proliferation of battery powered stuff on the bikes -- from shifters to wireless transponders. In a nutshell, there is a lot of EM activity now associated even with normal bikes. Recall a recent story about some malicious tampering with signals sent and received by team cars, allegedly conducted by rival teams. On this background, how conspicuous an occasional activity of a poultry two 18650 cells is going to be?

 

[Extinction]

Good observations right there. No sweat means no body heat which implies that either the power production of the body was low or the efficiency of said body was much closer to 100% than previously believed. Incidentally, in his first superhuman performance in that 2020 TDF TT that robbed Roglic of the yellow jersey, he actually did look labored and sweaty towards the end of the climb. He blitzed that one as we know, but that performance looked normal for a good biologically doped climber assuming he started the climb fresh. The clearly abnormal part of that TT was the flat one where he went faster than specialists while sitting in a "coal miner" position, in blatant disregard of that pesky air resistance.

What I am curious about is how many W/kg for how long he would have to de before most people here begin drawing a line between what's possible and what's not with the help of a good old biological doping. Would, say, 10W/kg for an hour be sufficient for that? I get an impression that most people even here tend to still give too much credit to the level of decency and intelligence of the current monopolized system and to the powers of today's science which is considered capable of producing some miraculous "genetic doping", for example. Were something like that real we wouldn't have, for instance, the high jump record of 2.45 standing for decades with nobody capable to even get close.

An hypothetical example from a different field. If it had been "officially" (i.e. in a TV program and on major online resources) announced (I am not talking about distant future here) that the first expedition to Mars successfully landed, complete with "footage" of the silo tower "Starship" standing on the background of yellow-orange sky and some yellowish hills, how many people here would have called BS right away as opposed to starting to muse about "them" having finally solved the technical problem associated with possibility of such a voyage.

You are too intelligent for me, can you restate that in layman's terms? Thanks

 

[Raest]

I have been dismissive of the motor doping theory in the motor doping thread but I am starting to reconsider.

 

[Casual cyclist]

You are too intelligent for me, can you restate that in layman's terms? Thanks

I feel especially obtuse today, sorry. Unless you are being sarcastic (which is fine if you are), what part of my message would you like me to elaborate on?

 

[Nick2413]

For the sake of spitballing, what are the thoughts on Pogacar getting a new coach this year? Related to his performance improvements or not, both in a training and clinic sense? Or part of the smokescreen? Or to avoid throwing up red flags for the original coach when he suddenly started pushing 5-10% more power overnight?

 

[Casual cyclist]

For the sake of spitballing, what are the thoughts on Pogacar getting a new coach this year? Related to his performance improvements or not, both in a training and clinic sense? Or part of the smokescreen? Or to avoid throwing up red flags for the original coach when he suddenly started pushing 5-10% more power overnight?

Thanks for reminding of that one. I recall it as a good chuckle. The participant Mou, the alleged insider, actually made a point out of it. His narrative was that, finally, Toddy got himself a "normal" coach and was actually going to do something else besides that famous "zone 2" easy riding for training. So everyone would better expect some serious gains, implying that the relative scale thereof was going to be comparable to what a total novice just starting serious training could see. Shortly thereafter, lo and behold, the gains came along. Indeed what else did you expect? The chap just was getting serious about the sport.

 

[Extinction]

I feel especially obtuse today, sorry. Unless you are being sarcastic (which is fine if you are), what part of my message would you like me to elaborate on?

I wasn't being sarcastic.🙂 "I get an impression that most people even here tend to still give too much credit to the level of decency and intelligence of the current monopolized system and to the powers of today's science which is considered capable of producing some miraculous "genetic doping", for example."

I'm interested in clarification on this statement and particularly the italicsed. I think you mean that one team or a very select number have the economic resources to gain access to the best programs. And that most fans chalk up the stellar feats we get, in this case Pogacar's, to just the new level of sophistcation in current performance science and not through illicit means. If this is correct, and I'm really not sure if you intended this, then I'm still perplexed by the same people thinking licit means would include miraculous "genetic doping"? So basically, I guess, I have no idea what you're talking about.🤷

PS: Unless you mean that the science isn't so advanced ("genetic doping") to achieve Pog's result without pharmachological means.

 

[pastronef]

from the Weightweenies foorum

Not sure if you guys have read it but these two paper by Dr. San Millan (UAE coach, and Pog's personal coach until 2023) dive pretty deep into his metabolomics and the finding is pretty nuts. In short he has insane aerobic capacity, have very high lactate threshold (the highest in the test) among the test subjects (20+ UAE riders), have the ability to metabolise fat very very efficiently with little metabolites. A clean efficient engine with big fuel tank that can repeatedly attack essentially.

Interestingly one of the paper collect blood sample from 2019 amgen ToC through out the race and it shows that Pogacar has some of the best ability to maintain freshness for a long stage racing.

Obviously none of the paper cite the name nor the team but it's so easy to guess. They even layout the exact distance, gradient of the climb of the stage race they collect the sample from. That race is 2019 Amgen TOC. "Cyclist 1" is Tadej Pogacar.

The paper is more nuanced of course, so go check it out. San Millan certainly enjoy the benefit of having access to WT team and did not hesitate to use that access in his study.

Frontiers | Metabolomics of Endurance Capacity in World Tour Professional Cyclists

The study of elite athletes provides a unique opportunity to define the upper limits of human physiology and performance. Across a variety of sports, these i...

www.frontiersin.org

Metabolic Signatures of Performance in Elite World Tour Professional Male Cyclists - Sports Medicine

Background and Objective Metabolomics studies of recreational and elite athletes have been so far limited to venipuncture-dependent blood sample collection in the setting of controlled training and medical facilities. However, limited to no information is currently available to determine if...

link.springer.com

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Considering The New York Times' role in bringing UFO BS into the mainstream, I think we'd more likely get a story on Pogi's extra-terrestrial origins, than any doping bust, unfortunately.

What about "Ancient Aliens and the Tour de France"? The signs are obviously there. It's so old, like it smartphones didn't exist, so all we have are rather bad depictions, some cave paintings or, which is totally similar, black and white photographs. So first of: how do we know that the "official" history of cycling isn't leaving out it's extraterrestrial origins. On top of that: A bike is as suspiciously smart idea to have for stupid humans. As Ancient Alien Theorist believe all great inventions came actually from Aliens, therefore the bike is from extraterrestrial origin.
But now, to get to the point in question here, Pogacars absurd powers, we just have to see what is plainly in sight but usually missed by everyone: he hair! As we all know Tesla showed that there is free energy in the atmosphere, you just need a means to get it. And this is clearly where Pogacars hair comes in, always stickig out of the helmet, always tapping in to the earth EM field. The fact, that the presenter of Ancient Aliens has very electrified hair here serves not as proof, but as a strong sign that we are thinking in the right direction here. Aliens apparently, as we can now deduce, have mastered the Art of getting energy "from the air through the hair", It even sounds catchy, so the probability goes up further.
To think though that Pogacar is himself an Alien is probably not going far enough, the truth is even more magnificent (and therefore true) than this. Pogacar most likely is part of the Prometheus Initiative, meant to bring humanity the "fire of the gods" i.e. Ancient Aliens. As humanity isn't ready for any of this outside of the audience of the History Channel, the truth has to be spread in signs and riddles, just like with the old religious texts.
So it is us, the cycling observing community, who have been cleary chosen to bring this matter to the light, chosen by no one less than Pogacar himself, which is why he uses alien technology to do stuff so outrageous on a bike, that smart people like us can come to the correct conclusions. The "Motordoping" theory is just a smokescreen our mind erects to shield us from this deeper truth.
Superhuman things done on a bike (of extraterrestial origin remember), conquering mythical climbs once chosen by the Ancient Aliens themselves as proving grounds for us, is not only unbelievable, it is proof!

 

[AverageWatts]

Good observations right there. No sweat means no body heat which implies that either the power production of the body was low or the efficiency of said body was much closer to 100% than previously believed. Incidentally, in his first superhuman performance in that 2020 TDF TT that robbed Roglic of the yellow jersey, he actually did look labored and sweaty towards the end of the climb. He blitzed that one as we know, but that performance looked normal for a good biologically doped climber assuming he started the climb fresh. The clearly abnormal part of that TT was the flat one where he went faster than specialists while sitting in a "coal miner" position, in blatant disregard of that pesky air resistance.

What I am curious about is how many W/kg for how long he would have to de before most people here begin drawing a line between what's possible and what's not with the help of a good old biological doping. Would, say, 10W/kg for an hour be sufficient for that? I get an impression that most people even here tend to still give too much credit to the level of decency and intelligence of the current monopolized system and to the powers of today's science which is considered capable of producing some miraculous "genetic doping", for example. Were something like that real we wouldn't have, for instance, the high jump record of 2.45 standing for decades with nobody capable to even get close.

An hypothetical example from a different field. If it had been "officially" (i.e. in a TV program and on major online resources) announced (I am not talking about distant future here) that the first expedition to Mars successfully landed, complete with "footage" of the silo tower "Starship" standing on the background of yellow-orange sky and some yellowish hills, how many people here would have called BS right away as opposed to starting to muse about "them" having finally solved the technical problem associated with possibility of such a voyage.

For many years (really before the mutants came into being), I was sure the experts were clear about the human limit when it comes to cycling. That chart Andrew Coggan made was supposed to show the limits, right?
https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

People will believe anything. I think the mutants' teams get a thrill out of fooling the average fan—just like Armstrong did. He didn’t only dope, he also rubbed it in with sayings like:
“The last thing I’ll say for the people that don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics, I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry you can’t dream big, and I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles...”

But why didn’t Pogacar ride with a bike computer in the last race? 🤔
A statement?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

But why didn’t Pogacar ride with a bike computer in the last race? 🤔
A statement?

He said he rather rides by heart rate rather than watts, so maybe he really likes riding without any of that stuff and just has a very good feel for his performance. Not sure if I'd read more into it than that.

 

[Extinction]

from the Weightweenies foorum

Not sure if you guys have read it but these two paper by Dr. San Millan (UAE coach, and Pog's personal coach until 2023) dive pretty deep into his metabolomics and the finding is pretty nuts. In short he has insane aerobic capacity, have very high lactate threshold (the highest in the test) among the test subjects (20+ UAE riders), have the ability to metabolise fat very very efficiently with little metabolites. A clean efficient engine with big fuel tank that can repeatedly attack essentially.

Interestingly one of the paper collect blood sample from 2019 amgen ToC through out the race and it shows that Pogacar has some of the best ability to maintain freshness for a long stage racing.

Obviously none of the paper cite the name nor the team but it's so easy to guess. They even layout the exact distance, gradient of the climb of the stage race they collect the sample from. That race is 2019 Amgen TOC. "Cyclist 1" is Tadej Pogacar.

The paper is more nuanced of course, so go check it out. San Millan certainly enjoy the benefit of having access to WT team and did not hesitate to use that access in his study.

Frontiers | Metabolomics of Endurance Capacity in World Tour Professional Cyclists

The study of elite athletes provides a unique opportunity to define the upper limits of human physiology and performance. Across a variety of sports, these i...

www.frontiersin.org

Metabolic Signatures of Performance in Elite World Tour Professional Male Cyclists - Sports Medicine

Background and Objective Metabolomics studies of recreational and elite athletes have been so far limited to venipuncture-dependent blood sample collection in the setting of controlled training and medical facilities. However, limited to no information is currently available to determine if...

link.springer.com

Well his VO2 max isn't among the best and, really, can we believe a study conducted in-house? It's like, but who polices the police?

 

[Ripper]

Well his VO2 max isn't among the best and, really, can we believe a study conducted in-house? It's like, but who polices the police?

It's like some sort of weird version of a Shania Twain song ... "OK, so you're talented. But that don't impress me much ..."

On the other hand, I believe Contadope, Pharmstrong, and Big Mig all also had studies demonstrating genetic superiority. And surprise, surprise, they also doped.