Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Pogacar was a TdF winner before turning 22 years old and had a podium in the Vuelta too. Are you really trying to compare Pogacar’s palmares and specially performances to all 3 I mentioned? Do you need to wait 3/4 years to understand I am right or do you really think Ayuso or Del Toro will win the Tour in the next 2 seasons?

Firstly, this doesn't change the point of the comment to which you replied. It is true that Pogi only really started winning meaningful races after signing with UAE as a junior.

Secondly, how do you measure talent? Ayuso was one of the best juniors in the world and showed every bit as much promise as Pogi if not even more. The same goes for Del Toro.

 

[Red Rick]

Firstly, this doesn't change the point of the comment to which you replied. It is true that Pogi only really started winning meaningful races after signing with UAE as a junior.

Secondly, how do you measure talent? Ayuso was one of the best juniors in the world and showed every bit as much promise as Pogi if not even more. The same goes for Del Toro.

Talent means something between "whenever I cannot explain performance." and "whatever I want it to be"

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If 2024 should tell the CN forum something, it's that I'm always right. It would then be wise to apply that to what I've been saying about the Combloux ITT for 15 months now. Pogacar dropped a turd in that one.

Sure Pogacar dropped a turd but OTOH Vingo was in 100% form during all stages of the Tour this year, right? JV did a miracle there and I'm far from certain they were at a "technological" disadvantage there.

 

[Netserk]

In 2023 I think it wasn't that implausible to assume there was a modicum of parity between Vingegaard and Pogacar. In 2024 there it actually is implausible to consider that there is a modicum of parity between Pogacar and anyone else in terms of doping.

And while 2023 was fast, it wasn't obscenely faster than 2022.

This year, particularly since PdB, has in fact been obscene. Comical. Farcical.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Firstly, this doesn't change the point of the comment to which you replied. It is true that Pogi only really started winning meaningful races after signing with UAE as a junior.

Secondly, how do you measure talent? Ayuso was one of the best juniors in the world and showed every bit as much promise as Pogi if not even more. The same goes for Del Toro.

He was 19 when he joined UAE. Were you expecting him to win what race when he was 18 years old?
Why hirschi didn't become better than Pogacar if he was better than him as a junior?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard had clearly weaker days in there. Isola 2000. Superdevoluy. He really tended to burn really hard for 10 minutes and then fade after an initial effort a few times, TT included.

That's exactly my point. Pog's dominance at the Tour was magnified by his rival's heavily disturbed preparation so we don't know if JV was at a "technological" disadvantage there. Vingo had a life-threatening crash but still JV did incredible job, a miracle. His PDB performance wasn't any more believable than Pog's, considering the circumstances.

 

[Salvarani]

Jonas comeback from his crash was out of this world.

Absolutely insane

Biggest doper there is

 

[pastronef]

Largest margin of victory at Giro dell'Emilia since 1976 when Roger De Vlaeminck won by one minute and 59 seconds. It's a joke at this point. A parody of the sport, an utter circus act.

the uphill finish in Emilia began in 1999. there's no use in comparing 2 different parcours.

 

[Salvarani]

the uphill finish in Emilia began in 1999. there's no use in comparing 2 different parcours.

Bad weather today. Makes the attrition worse.

Suits the strongest and most talented rider, who also likes the rain.

 

[pastronef]

Only started winning after joining UAE.

he won Tour de l'Avenir while at Ljubljana-Gusto

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

He was 19 when he joined UAE. Were you expecting him to win what race when he was 18 years old?
Why hirschi didn't become better than Pogacar if he was better than him as a junior?

Listen, you're the one saying that Pogacar is clearly a more talented rider than Del Toro and Ayuso. I'm asking you then, how you define that in relation to the claim that he only started winning once joining UAE. It was this claim that you seemingly took exception to. Now, I'm asking you how you can consider Pogacar a notably bigger talent than Del Toro and Ayuso in their respective junior years, i.e. before joining UAE?

All I see is that you constantly keep changing the subject and moving the goalposts. So to make things very simple: Before joining the UAE, what would make one consider Pogacar a bigger talent than Del Toro and Ayuso?

 

[AmRacer]

Listen, you're the one saying that Pogacar is clearly a more talented rider than Del Toro and Ayuso. I'm asking you then, how you define that in relation to the claim that he only started winning once joining UAE. It was this claim that you seemingly took exception to. Now, I'm asking you how you can consider Pogacar a notably bigger talent than Del Toro and Ayuso in their respective junior years, i.e. before joining UAE?

All I see is that you constantly keep changing the subject and moving the goalposts. So to make things very simple: Before joining the UAE, what would make one consider Pogacar a bigger talent than Del Toro and Ayuso?

List their respective wins from age 14-18.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Listen, you're the one saying that Pogacar is clearly a more talented rider than Del Toro and Ayuso. I'm asking you then, how you define that in relation to the claim that he only started winning once joining UAE. It was this claim that you seemingly took exception to. Now, I'm asking you how you can consider Pogacar a notably bigger talent than Del Toro and Ayuso in their respective junior years, i.e. before joining UAE?

All I see is that you constantly keep changing the subject and moving the goalposts. So to make things very simple: Before joining the UAE, what would make one consider Pogacar a bigger talent than Del Toro and Ayuso?

Aren't Del Toro and Ayuso in UAE? Why they can't win like Pogacar?

 

[ashhutch1997]

Jonas comeback from his crash was out of this world.

Yes it was, he's just lucky that Pog was so outrageous, nobody questioned his miraculous comeback.

 

[Netserk]

Aren't Del Toro and Ayuso in UAE? Why they can't win like Pogacar?

Weren't Landis and Hamilton in US Postal? Why they can't win like Armstrong? --> Armstrong was more talented
Weren't Landa and Nieve in Sky? Why they can't win like Froome? --> Froome was more talented

 

[Rackham]

Cycling is the hardest sport in the world.

I don't think everyone quite realizes the psychological impact this guy is having on everyone else. When he goes... the rest no longer go as deep because there's no point.

It exacerbates the dominance and ruins the entertainment.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Weren't Landis and Hamilton in US Postal? Why they can't win like Armstrong? --> Armstrong was more talented
Weren't Landa and Nieve in Sky? Why they can't win like Froome? --> Froome was more talented

Please Netserk. Read all my posts. I said already he is in a better doping program, he is a better responder but also more talented. I think all these 3 things are correct. The gap between Pogacar (and the rest) is way bigger than in Froome/LA era, do you really think is only a question of a better doping program? Pogacar comes from a small country with zero cycling history so he probably wasn't "so professional" (in his youth) like riders who come from Spain, Belgium, Italy, etc.
The only reason to Pogacar being so much better that contradict what I said is motor doping.

 

[Froome]

Please Netserk. Read all my posts. I said already he is in a better doping program, he is a better responder but also more talented. I think all these 3 things are correct. The gap between Pogacar (and the rest) is way bigger than in Froome/LA era, do you really think is only a question of a better doping program? Pogacar comes from a small country with zero cycling history so he probably wasn't "so professional" (in his youth) like riders who come from Spain, Belgium, Italy, etc.
The only reason to Pogacar being so much better that contradict what I said is motor doping.

How do you know he is more talented? Evenepoel was a better junior than him.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Cycling is the hardest sport in the world.

I don't think everyone quite realizes the psychological impact this guy is having on everyone else. When he goes... the rest no longer go as deep because there's no point.

It exacerbates the dominance and ruins the entertainment.

The results were just posted, only 53 riders finished. Don't know if the rest all got sick or whatnot, maybe just sick because they stood no chance to catch up to Pog.

Pog should just race alone against a clone of himself, that could be entertaining in a sci-fi sort of way.

 

[Rackham]

The results were just posted, only 53 riders finished. Don't know if the rest all got sick or whatnot, maybe just sick because they stood no chance to catch up to Pog.

Pog should just race alone against a clone of himself, that could be entertaining in a sci-fi sort of way.

I've never seen Rog DNF like this (it's rare). No idea what happened to him but when I see Evenepoel also quit... I'm thinking these guys got super demoralized super fast.

 

[TrekCyclist]

I still find it difficult to guess whats really going on during the last 2-3 years.
Not sure whether carbon monoxide rebreathing can explain it. If so, probably everyone would be on it by now, including track and field, football, ice skating etc. ?
But from the numbers the top riders are producing (and I mean, like the top 15 of this year's TdF), they must have the Oxygen conversion capacity of the peak-EPO years.

 

[Froome]

Sure Pogacar dropped a turd but OTOH Vingo was in 100% form during all stages of the Tour this year, right? JV did a miracle there and I'm far from certain they were at a "technological" disadvantage there.

Vingegaard wasn't 100% in the Tour, but he didn't fade.

Yes, he was full of doping, i don't know how many times i need to say this, because every time i post something about Pogacar here (not Vingegaard thread), it's always the same thing "but you think Vingegaard is clean". No! I already said so many times he is doped, especially this year, where he also doped really hard to achieve a decent level.

I don't know what you were talking about Tour 2022 and 2023, but i didn't posted anything in this forum when those Tours happened. When later, i said something about them, was that they were all in doping, but the programmes were in a similar level. Pogacar also won a lot of one day races and races in 2022 and 2023, but there wasn't a supremacy in every race for the same guy.

 

[Froome]

I still find it difficult to guess whats really going on during the last 2-3 years.
Not sure whether carbon monoxide rebreathing can explain it. If so, probably everyone would be on it by now, including track and field, football, ice skating etc. ?
But from the numbers the top riders are producing (and I mean, like the top 15 of this year's TdF), they must have the Oxygen conversion capacity of the peak-EPO years.

What is really going won since Plateau de beille, because i can't still understand the gap between Pas de peyrol and Plateau de beille.

They were doing like 6.8 w/kg in the stage of peyrol during 12 minutes. Why they didn’t like 7.5 w/kg in those short climbs, since someone was able to do 6.8 w/kg during 40 minutes?

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Aren't Del Toro and Ayuso in UAE? Why they can't win like Pogacar?

Because Pogacar is their golden calf? I still don't understand which point you're so incessantly trying to prove here. Again, when the claim is that Pogi wasn't a special talent before joining UAE, how does saying that he's currently the best guy in the world disproof anything in this regard?

Also, if we must do this stupid exercise, then here are their results before turning 20 according to Pro Cycling Stats. If you can dig up more results, be my guest but until then let's put to bed this idea that Pogi has always been a junior talent far superior to the likes of Hirschi and Ayuso:

Name	Racedays (before 20th birthday)	Wins	Podiums
Marc Hirschi	127	14	32
Juan Ayuso	110	11	22
Tadej Pogacar	143	8	25
Isaac Del Toro	58	2	7

This even includes Pogi's results as a junior after signing with UAE. It also puts Ayuso at a bit of a disadvantage as this includes a lot of senior races, a lot of them even in the World Tour as he - as opposed to Pogi - was already at World Tour-level as a teenager.

Again, there is no case for making the claim that Pogi was some special sort of talent as a junior. We have seen literally dozens and dozens of junior talents at the same level as Pogi or significantly better. Just think about Remco for a second, for example.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard wasn't 100% in the Tour, but he didn't fade.

Yes, he was full of doping, i don't know how many times i need to say this, because every time i post something about Pogacar here (not Vingegaard thread), it's always the same thing "but you thing Vingegaard is clean". No! I already said so many times he is doped, especially this year, where he also doped really hard to achieve a decent level.

I don't know what you were talking about Tour 2022 and 2023, but i didn't posted anything in this forum when those Tours happened. When later, i said something about them, was that they were all in doping, but the programmes were in a similar level. Pogacar also won a lot of one day races and races in 2022 and 2023, but there wasn't a supremacy in every race for the same guy.

I'm not arguing about anything regarding Pogacar being heavily doped and good that you actually still think that Vingo doped hard this year.

My point was your sudden turn against doping since the Tour (while earlier you didn't care much). It was so obvious why it happened (soon after your hero was dropped in the Pyrenees, which you didn't think could happen as he was in your opinion invincible on long climbs right?).

My another point is that we can't be sure UAE has an advantage over JV as the latter had very bad luck regarding both Vingo and Van Aert this year while the rest of their guys are not in Pogacar's league of course (but Jorgenson's progress and Vingo's miraclous recovery signal that their "technology" is doing well!).