Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

It's like some sort of weird version of a Shania Twain song ... "OK, so you're talented. But that don't impress me much ..."

On the other hand, I believe Contadope, Pharmstrong, and Big Mig all also had studies demonstrating genetic superiority. And surprise, surprise, they also doped.

I want to see independent studies without vested interests.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I want to see independent studies without vested interests.

if UAE wanted they could actually test Teddy "in top form" and show off his incredible result (high 90s guaranteed IMO) proving to the world his talent. But VO2max isn't something naturally constant (indicating natural talent or whatever), it's strongly affected by blood doping. Obviously if someone scores super high value (even after doping) he's surely very talented but it's not some ultimate doping-independent talent measure.

 

[Stablo]

Well his VO2 max isn't among the best and, really, can we believe a study conducted in-house? It's like, but who polices the police?

It's like the marginal gains etc bs. Just something to make the big audience believe in stupid things, like "yeah the performances are a lot better than even the super doped riders had, but his clean. He just has this super metabolism, lactate clearance and aerobic capacity. It has never ever been seen before, he was already the best, last winter he finally started training properly and now you can see his true extra terrestial level"

Like yeah sure 😂wonder why these super human abilities didnt show anything before joining UAE. If that "study" would be true, our boy would have dominated from way earlier.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I wasn't being sarcastic.🙂 "I get an impression that most people even here tend to still give too much credit to the level of decency and intelligence of the current monopolized system and to the powers of today's science which is considered capable of producing some miraculous "genetic doping", for example."

I'm interested in clarification on this statement and particularly the italicsed. I think you mean that one team or a very select number have the economic resources to gain access to the best programs. And that most fans chalk up the stellar feets we get, in this case Pogacar's, to just the new level of sophistcation in current performance science and not through illicit means. If this is correct, and I'm really not sure if you intended this, then I'm still perplexed by the same people thinking licit means would include miraculous "genetic doping"? So basically, I guess, I have no idea what you're talking about.🤷

PS: Unless you mean that the science isn't so advanced ("genetic doping") to achieve Pog's result without pharmachological means.

I guess I said it a bit awkwardly. Let me try to correct it a bit. First, about the modern science. I meant that what today’s science is doing best is blowing smoke as opposed to achieving real progress. Like, for example, fundamental theoretical physics still has no idea what electric charge is while keeping itself busy with figuring out how the extra dimensions of space (of which there are, allegedly, at least six) curl up into “Planck scale size” to give rise, in particular, to the observed spectrum of elementary particles. (Needless to say, electric charges are reality that needs to be understood, and extra dimensions is a bunch of hooey.) So, given the subject matter discussed here, I simply meant to say that no miraculous “genetic doping” capable of changing Toddy’s biology to the extent of him being able to produce the results we are now witnessing (while literally breaking no sweat, to boot) is quite simply well beyond the modern science’s capability. Just like a sucessfull expedition to Mars (or even Moon) is beyond the said capability. So, given the choice – as means of a rational explanation – between a minor scientific miracle and blatant cheating (electromagnetic battery powered propulsion system hidden inside his bike, in our case), one should lean to the latter.

As to the italicized words in your reply, they would take me a little longer to properly elaborate on but let me just try to sketch it. As K. Marx showed in “Das Kapital” a century and a half ago, the only constant of capitalism is the ever increasing capital’s concentration and centralization. Following that inevitable tendency, capitalism entered its monopolistic phase in late XIX century that was succeeded by the state-monopolistic one and later, roughly in the last third of XX century, by the global monopolistic one which is now fairly ripe (and thus is beginning to rot). That lack of any independent investigative journalism mentioned recently in this thread many times is pretty much a direct consequence of that ultra monopolization. To put it simply, one could say that everything now sits in the same pocket and people with very different job descriptions get paid from the same source (and their real job duties often differ quite a bit from the “official” job description). That lack of real competition works against keeping the system “honest” (it tends to lose its “decency”). As to intelligence, the system, being so ripe, also loses its progressive tendencies and takes on an ultra-conservative status-quo maintaining character thereby becoming progress-averse and anti-intellectual.

In application to the issue discussed here, this means that what sounds quite stupid and ridiculously blatant (like turning pro cycling of WWE version) should be considered fully possible. For the system, it is just one of many entertainment industries that exist for profit and as means of control of masses (a form of the proverbial “brainwash”). So, making what was already somewhat of a circus into a full-blown circus is really no biggie, from the system’s point of view. That is unless the target audience just refuses to buy it at the moment which, by now, they realized it does not.

 

[Extinction]

I guess I said it a bit awkwardly. Let me try to correct it a bit. First, about the modern science. I meant that what today’s science is doing best is blowing smoke as opposed to achieving real progress. Like, for example, fundamental theoretical physics still has no idea what electric charge is while keeping itself busy with figuring out how the extra dimensions of space (of which there are, allegedly, at least six) curl up into “Planck scale size” to give rise, in particular, to the observed spectrum of elementary particles. (Needless to say, electric charges are reality that needs to be understood, and extra dimensions is a bunch of hooey.) So, given the subject matter discussed here, I simply meant to say that no miraculous “genetic doping” capable of changing Toddy’s biology to the extent of him being able to produce the results we are now witnessing (while literally breaking no sweat, to boot) is quite simply well beyond the modern science’s capability. Just like a sucessfull expedition to Mars (or even Moon) is beyond the said capability. So, given the choice – as means of a rational explanation – between a minor scientific miracle and blatant cheating (electromagnetic battery powered propulsion system hidden inside his bike, in our case), one should lean to the latter.

As to the italicized words in your reply, they would take me a little longer to properly elaborate on but let me just try to sketch it. As K. Marx showed in “Das Kapital” a century and a half ago, the only constant of capitalism is the ever increasing capital’s concentration and centralization. Following that inevitable tendency, capitalism entered its monopolistic phase in late XIX century that was succeeded by the state-monopolistic one and later, roughly in the last third of XX century, by the global monopolistic one which is now fairly ripe (and thus is beginning to rot). That lack of any independent investigative journalism mentioned recently in this thread many times is pretty much a direct consequence of that ultra monopolization. To put it simply, one could say that everything now sits in the same pocket and people with very different job descriptions get paid from the same source (and their real job duties often differ quite a bit from the “official” job description). That lack of real competition works against keeping the system “honest” (it tends to lose its “decency”). As to intelligence, the system, being so ripe, also loses its progressive tendencies and takes on an ultra-conservative status-quo maintaining character thereby becoming progress-averse and anti-intellectual.

In application to the issue discussed here, this means that what sounds quite stupid and ridiculously blatant (like turning pro cycling of WWE version) should be considered fully possible. For the system, it is just one of many entertainment industries that exist for profit and as means of control of masses (a form of the proverbial “brainwash”). So, making what was already somewhat of a circus into a full-blown circus is really no biggie, from the system’s point of view. That is unless the target audience just refuses to buy it at the moment which, by now, they realized it does not.

The science itself is bound to the same market demands and capital that explains why Pog and his entourage aren't being pressed by journalistic integrity. That which goes against the interests of capital, is simply ignored. And yet the elephant stands among us.

 

[peterfin]

I guess I said it a bit awkwardly. Let me try to correct it a bit. First, about the modern science. I meant that what today’s science is doing best is blowing smoke as opposed to achieving real progress. Like, for example, fundamental theoretical physics still has no idea what electric charge is while keeping itself busy with figuring out how the extra dimensions of space (of which there are, allegedly, at least six) curl up into “Planck scale size” to give rise, in particular, to the observed spectrum of elementary particles. (Needless to say, electric charges are reality that needs to be understood, and extra dimensions is a bunch of hooey.) So, given the subject matter discussed here, I simply meant to say that no miraculous “genetic doping” capable of changing Toddy’s biology to the extent of him being able to produce the results we are now witnessing (while literally breaking no sweat, to boot) is quite simply well beyond the modern science’s capability. Just like a sucessfull expedition to Mars (or even Moon) is beyond the said capability. So, given the choice – as means of a rational explanation – between a minor scientific miracle and blatant cheating (electromagnetic battery powered propulsion system hidden inside his bike, in our case), one should lean to the latter.

As to the italicized words in your reply, they would take me a little longer to properly elaborate on but let me just try to sketch it. As K. Marx showed in “Das Kapital” a century and a half ago, the only constant of capitalism is the ever increasing capital’s concentration and centralization. Following that inevitable tendency, capitalism entered its monopolistic phase in late XIX century that was succeeded by the state-monopolistic one and later, roughly in the last third of XX century, by the global monopolistic one which is now fairly ripe (and thus is beginning to rot). That lack of any independent investigative journalism mentioned recently in this thread many times is pretty much a direct consequence of that ultra monopolization. To put it simply, one could say that everything now sits in the same pocket and people with very different job descriptions get paid from the same source (and their real job duties often differ quite a bit from the “official” job description). That lack of real competition works against keeping the system “honest” (it tends to lose its “decency”). As to intelligence, the system, being so ripe, also loses its progressive tendencies and takes on an ultra-conservative status-quo maintaining character thereby becoming progress-averse and anti-intellectual.

In application to the issue discussed here, this means that what sounds quite stupid and ridiculously blatant (like turning pro cycling of WWE version) should be considered fully possible. For the system, it is just one of many entertainment industries that exist for profit and as means of control of masses (a form of the proverbial “brainwash”). So, making what was already somewhat of a circus into a full-blown circus is really no biggie, from the system’s point of view. That is unless the target audience just refuses to buy it at the moment which, by now, they realized it does not.

While capital concentrates it's not that it results in one communist-like entity that controls everything on the planet. The problem of capital concentration is that it creates entities, like UAE for example, that are too big and too influencial to control by a sports body, especially a minor one like the UCI. For the same reason many countries cannot handle the likes of Apple or Google within the rules of their system without making exemptions and adaptions (official and unofficial) as their lobby and impact of their products is just too big. Normally this shouldn't be a big deal as the big players don't care about cycling unless there is real interest for whatever reason. Countries with endless pools of money that use cycling for promotional purposes is toxic for our sport. Astana, Bahrein and now UAE ... they all have their issues.

 

[Extinction]

While capital concentrates it's not that it results in one communist-like entity that controls everything on the planet. The problem of capital concentration is that it creates entities, like UAE for example, that are too big and too influencial to control by a sports body, especially a minor one like the UCI. For the same reason many countries cannot handle the likes of Apple or Google within the rules of their system without making exemptions and adaptions (official and unofficial) as their lobby and impact of their products is just too big. Normally this shouldn't be a big deal as the big players don't care about cycling unless there is real interest for whatever reason. Countries with endless pools of money that use cycling for promotional purposes is toxic for our sport. Astana, Bahrein and now UAE ... they all have their issues.

But, of course, capital is the state and thus when UAE is too big to fail then the UCI, which should govern the sport, gets governed by capital.

 

[Bolder]

It's like some sort of weird version of a Shania Twain song ... "OK, so you're talented. But that don't impress me much ..."

On the other hand, I believe Contadope, Pharmstrong, and Big Mig all also had studies demonstrating genetic superiority. And surprise, surprise, they also doped.

as did merckx.

The combination leads to legendary results.

 

[Cookster15]

I'd be interested to know more about genetic doping and if this might explain what we are seeing? Why wouldn't genetic doping also run the risk of triggering an adverse finding in the athlete biological passport? You would have to work around the markers tracked in the passport and still get a performance boost - mitochondria?

 

[Red Rick]

I'd be interested to know more about genetic doping and if this might explain what we are seeing? Why wouldn't genetic doping also run the risk of triggering an adverse finding in the athlete biological passport? You would have to work around the markers tracked in the passport and still get a performance boost - mitochondria?

If gene doping was this far along we'd hear much more buzz about miracle cures for heaps of crap. While it's super easy to sequence whatever RNA or DNA strand you need, the drug delivery is still gigantic problem.

In my view, doping is never really gonna be the super cutting edge medical science, but more likely high dose mundane crap. Or motors.

 

[Nick2413]

If gene doping was this far along we'd hear much more buzz about miracle cures for heaps of crap. While it's super easy to sequence whatever RNA or DNA strand you need, the drug delivery is still gigantic problem.

In my view, doping is never really gonna be the super cutting edge medical science, but more likely high dose mundane crap. Or motors.

Do you believe motors are in use in the WT peloton in any meaningful way currently?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I guess I said it a bit awkwardly. Let me try to correct it a bit. First, about the modern science. I meant that what today’s science is doing best is blowing smoke as opposed to achieving real progress. Like, for example, fundamental theoretical physics still has no idea what electric charge is while keeping itself busy with figuring out how the extra dimensions of space (of which there are, allegedly, at least six) curl up into “Planck scale size” to give rise, in particular, to the observed spectrum of elementary particles. (Needless to say, electric charges are reality that needs to be understood, and extra dimensions is a bunch of hooey.) So, given the subject matter discussed here, I simply meant to say that no miraculous “genetic doping” capable of changing Toddy’s biology to the extent of him being able to produce the results we are now witnessing (while literally breaking no sweat, to boot) is quite simply well beyond the modern science’s capability. Just like a sucessfull expedition to Mars (or even Moon) is beyond the said capability. So, given the choice – as means of a rational explanation – between a minor scientific miracle and blatant cheating (electromagnetic battery powered propulsion system hidden inside his bike, in our case), one should lean to the latter.

So while I believe the first boldend-italicised part to be correct, I have trouble with the second part, and therefore in the end with the entire reasoning.

Are you suggesting that it's outside our engeneering and scienfitic possibilities to land on the moon? Mars is a different issue, but the moon has been done before and with much lesser tech than today. Ofc you could argue that it didn't happen, but that would be fantastic for quite simple reasons: first, you gotta shoot the Saturn 5 into LEO, because people actually witnessed the start, once you've done this it's ofc harder to get out of LEO, but that's a scaling issue after you can get a gigantic rocket into LEO. Second: if the Americans didn't land on the moon, what on earth stopped the Soviets from making this public, this kind of *** can be observed and will have been observed.

Now that this is out of the water:
Basically you don't need a scientifically fully explainable effect if you "experiment" with substances. It's completely thinkable that a substance is used to augment an organism which isn't fully understood in itself or it's precise effects yet causes great (beneficial or not) changes in the organisms physiology. E.g. we don't understand how anesthesia turns off consciousness, yet it works with different substances. So you don't need a working theory, just a working effect. And who knows which modern or old medicine might have a huge influence on what e.g. cyclists can do on a bike, It just needs to exist, it doesn't have to be understood. Also you can quantify the effects even if you don't know what brings them about, and therefore calculate with them and use them to take a rational approach of how to deal with them, even without any deeper understanding of them.

 

[Rob5091]

Nothing says high tec more then eating sodium bicarbonate with a wooden spoon ...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Nothing says high tec more then eating sodium bicarbonate with a wooden spoon ...

What kind of spoon did you expect from Woods? Teddy uses a metal one, which is his secret super power.

 

[Rob5091]

What kind of spoon did you expect from Woods? Teddy uses a metal one, which is his secret super power.

Damn! Metal cutlery .... talk about dance with the devil ...

 

[pastronef]

What kind of spoon did you expect from Woods? Teddy uses a metal one, which is his secret super power.

suPper, that's where it's at

 

[ashhutch1997]

I'm sorry guys, but this guy is seriously taking the piss now!

 

[ontheroad]

The rest of those chumps in the peloton will need to get up off their lazy asses over the winter or the racing will become unwatchable next year!!

 

[Froome]

He can do whatever he wants any day of the week. The new doping he is taking is something really good, and he knows the rivals can't equalize that.

That's why he doesn't care. He attacks soon, because he knows he will be unmatched and can sustain the pace.

I am really curious to see where this is going in the next years.

 

[Shakes]

Watching it made me think of Tom Dumoulins comment during the 2020 Tour following the Planche des belles filles Time Trial. That what Pogi showed there he could win most races with just one leg. He is still using two though. It's ridiculous and boring but the commentators are still talking about the greatest cyclist ever. Instead of the farce we are witnessing.

Tom Dumoulin already saw the ridiculousness and quit. That guy was brilliant and we are the fools that kept watching and now it's beyond ridiculous. I'm out.

Longing for the Froome years. At least those years were plausible. Tactics boring but what you'd expect in reality.

 

[GuntherL1]

The biggest threat for him is hubris, for him as well as other UAE riders on the same program.
He's riding like he's untouchable. He could also wait until the final climb, but he needs to show off. That can start to work against you.
Currently, nobody asks questions, but that can change quickly.
Some of his competitors will start to hate him as well.

 

[Froome]

The biggest threat for him is hubris, for him as well as other UAE riders on the same program.
He's riding like he's untouchable. He could also wait until the final climb, but he needs to show off. That can start to work against you.
Currently, nobody asks questions, but that can change quickly.
Some of his competitors will start to hate him as well.

TikTok Armstrong. He is arrogant and a sneak. He knows nobody can touch him with the new programm of UAE.

I hope he ends like Ricardo Ricco.

 

[ashhutch1997]

I worry this will kill the sport, how long will he be able to do this before the journalists actually start doing their job and start asking questions like they did with US Postal and Sky.

 

[GuntherL1]

TikTok Armstrong. He is arrogant and a sneak. He knows nobody can touch him with the new programm of UAE.

I hope he ends like Ricardo Ricco.

I wouldn't buy ice cream from this guy.

 

[saunaking]

Guys, mother nature gave him these attributes!
What is he supposed to do??

Eurosport commentary haha