Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard wasn't 100% in the Tour, but he didn't fade.

Yes, he was full of doping, i don't know how many times i need to say this, because every time i post something about Pogacar here (not Vingegaard thread), it's always the same thing "but you thing Vingegaard is clean". No! I already said so many times he is doped, especially this year, where he also doped really hard to achieve a decent level.

I don't know what you were talking about Tour 2022 and 2023, but i didn't posted anything in this forum when those Tours happened. When later, i said something about them, was that they were all in doping, but the programmes were in a similar level. Pogacar also won a lot of one day races and races in 2022 and 2023, but there wasn't a supremacy in every race for the same guy.

I'm not arguing about anything regarding Pogacar being heavily doped and good that you actually still think that Vingo doped hard this year.

My point was your sudden turn against doping since the Tour (while earlier you didn't care much). It was so obvious why it happened (soon after your hero was dropped in the Pyrenees, which you didn't think could happen as he was in your opinion invincible on long climbs right?).

My another point is that we can't be sure UAE has an advantage over JV as the latter had very bad luck regarding both Vingo and Van Aert this year while the rest of their guys are not in Pogacar's league of course (but Jorgenson's progress and Vingo's miraclous recovery signal that their "technology" is doing well!).

 

[GuntherL1]

@GuntherL1

Interesting question. I guess most of the UAE riders don't have special privileges. I haven't seen these absurd, consistent performances in other UAE riders, although Hirschi's winning streak and Pablo Torres on the Colle delle Finestre were highly suspicious. Torres: similar scenario to Pogacar 2018. A good rider, but not exceptional, signs for UAE and suddenly performs at a different level. It's much safer to give individual riders special privileges instead of an entire team. Easier to keep secret.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Pogacar comes from a small country with zero cycling history so he probably wasn't "so professional" (in his youth) like riders who come from Spain, Belgium, Italy, etc.

This is just flat-out wrong on so many levels that I wouldn't even know where to begin ...

 

[GuntherL1]

Because Pogacar is their golden calf? I still don't understand which point you're so incessantly trying to prove here. Again, when the claim is that Pogi wasn't a special talent before joining UAE, how does saying that he's currently the best guy in the world disproof anything in this regard?

Also, if we must do this stupid exercise, then here are their results before turning 20 according to Pro Cycling Stats. If you can dig up more results, be my guest but until then let's put to bed this idea that Pogi has always been a junior talent far superior to the likes of Hirschi and Ayuso:

Name	Racedays (before 20th birthday)	Wins	Podiums
Marc Hirschi	127	14	32
Juan Ayuso	110	11	22
Tadej Pogacar	143	8	25
Isaac Del Toro	58	2	7

This even includes Pogi's results as a junior after signing with UAE. It also puts Ayuso at a bit of a disadvantage as this includes a lot of senior races, a lot of them even in the World Tour as he - as opposed to Pogi - was already at World Tour-level as a teenager.

Again, there is no case for making the claim that Pogi was some special sort of talent as a junior. We have seen literally dozens and dozens of junior talents at the same level as Pogi or significantly better. Just think about Remco for a second, for example.

Nice work. It confirms what I've been saying for a long time.

 

[Casual cyclist]

So while I believe the first boldend-italicised part to be correct, I have trouble with the second part, and therefore in the end with the entire reasoning.

Are you suggesting that it's outside our engeneering and scienfitic possibilities to land on the moon? Mars is a different issue, but the moon has been done before and with much lesser tech than today. Ofc you could argue that it didn't happen, but that would be fantastic for quite simple reasons: first, you gotta shoot the Saturn 5 into LEO, because people actually witnessed the start, once you've done this it's ofc harder to get out of LEO, but that's a scaling issue after you can get a gigantic rocket into LEO. Second: if the Americans didn't land on the moon, what on earth stopped the Soviets from making this public, this kind of *** can be observed and will have been observed.

Now that this is out of the water:
Basically you don't need a scientifically fully explainable effect if you "experiment" with substances. It's completely thinkable that a substance is used to augment an organism which isn't fully understood in itself or it's precise effects yet causes great (beneficial or not) changes in the organisms physiology. E.g. we don't understand how anesthesia turns off consciousness, yet it works with different substances. So you don't need a working theory, just a working effect. And who knows which modern or old medicine might have a huge influence on what e.g. cyclists can do on a bike, It just needs to exist, it doesn't have to be understood. Also you can quantify the effects even if you don't know what brings them about, and therefore calculate with them and use them to take a rational approach of how to deal with them, even without any deeper understanding of them.

Dang. I should have left that bloody moon alone. I knew some people could get touchy about that “we walked on the moon” topic. If you are one of those, please accept my apologies, disregard my moon mention, and stick to just Mars. If it is not just an emotional response, I could answer your specific moon related questions, but it would take us too far off topic.

As to “them” being able to accidentally stumble upon some new powerful chemical or biological doping without any understanding of its workings, there definitely exists such an abstract possibility. However, there are a couple of observations, in my opinion, which make it not very likely in this particular instance. First, if something this powerful were just discovered, we would see records falling left and right in, for example, athletics, where any kind of EM help is impossible. If the same scale improvement as Teddy demonstrated just this year were in store, we would see people clearing 9.50s in 100m dash and 2.50m in high jump, figuratively speaking. Second, when any kind of help is applied to just the body and only then to pedals, the person in question still struggles and suffers, just does not blow as quickly as his competitors. Toddy, on the other hand, appears perfectly fresh and almost sweat-free after seemingly superhuman efforts.

 

[E_F_]

How soon did he attack this time?

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Nice work. It confirms what I've been saying for a long time.

For added context, given my off-hand remark about Remco, I should probably say that Remco had 31 wins and 42 podiums in 91 racedays before turning 20 as per PCS. See, that could rightly be claimed as being a special level of talent, an almost unheard-of dominance.

 

[Salvarani]

Pog was always very talented. Came from a small cycling country and racing for small clubs. Him being able to make many great results as a junior was always very telling of how great he would be.

What a rider.

 

[Froome]

My point was your sudden turn against doping since the Tour (while earlier you didn't care much). It was so obvious why it happened (soon after your hero was dropped in the Pyrenees, which you didn't think could happen as he was in your opinion invincible on long climbs right?).

My another point is that we can't be sure UAE has an advantage over JV as the latter had very bad luck regarding both Vingo and Van Aert this year while the rest of their guys are not in Pogacar's league of course (but Jorgenson's progress and Vingo's miraclous recovery signal that their "technology" is doing well!).

I always said and is not the first time, i will say it again, as long as the teams have a programm of similar quality, and as longs things stays in the 6.2/6.3 w/kg in 35/40 min, like not so outrageous perfomances, like in the 90s, i have not a big problem with that.

Things changed this year, and if Vingegaard does 7 w/kg during 40 min on la plagne i will say the same thing about the state of cycling and how he is full of doping(i will not be so mad, only because one reason. I like more his personality), but the case of Pogacar you know is way more outrageous, because he is doing what he is doing in every fuc*** race. You know very well that Pogacar won races in 2021, 2022 and 2023, but it wasn't this supremacy, and i wasn't that mad when he won those races, for the reasons i explained.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This is just flat-out wrong on so many levels that I wouldn't even know where to begin ...

No, it isn't. Cyclists from big nations (nations that have tradition in cycling) are "professional" way earlier.

 

[Salvarani]

Mou told everyone the changes with training and the preparation. It has worked out exactly like he said.

Not strange for a rider who has taken steps each season for the past decade.

 

[Netserk]

How soon did he attack this time?

First time up San Luca (out of 5).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Because Pogacar is their golden calf? I still don't understand which point you're so incessantly trying to prove here. Again, when the claim is that Pogi wasn't a special talent before joining UAE, how does saying that he's currently the best guy in the world disproof anything in this regard?

Also, if we must do this stupid exercise, then here are their results before turning 20 according to Pro Cycling Stats. If you can dig up more results, be my guest but until then let's put to bed this idea that Pogi has always been a junior talent far superior to the likes of Hirschi and Ayuso:

Name	Racedays (before 20th birthday)	Wins	Podiums
Marc Hirschi	127	14	32
Juan Ayuso	110	11	22
Tadej Pogacar	143	8	25
Isaac Del Toro	58	2	7

This even includes Pogi's results as a junior after signing with UAE. It also puts Ayuso at a bit of a disadvantage as this includes a lot of senior races, a lot of them even in the World Tour as he - as opposed to Pogi - was already at World Tour-level as a teenager.

Again, there is no case for making the claim that Pogi was some special sort of talent as a junior. We have seen literally dozens and dozens of junior talents at the same level as Pogi or significantly better. Just think about Remco for a second, for example.

Fábio Paim was a bigger talent than Cristiano Ronaldo as a junior. Ronaldo, you know who he is, Paim, you don't have a clue. For you, the best junior=best rider in the world in the future. I will not continue this conversation, it's pointless

 

[Froome]

My another point is that we can't be sure UAE has an advantage over JV as the latter had very bad luck regarding both Vingo and Van Aert this year while the rest of their guys are not in Pogacar's league of course (but Jorgenson's progress and Vingo's miraclous recovery signal that their "technology" is doing well!).

Trust me, if Visma don't improve his doping programm to the same level of the UAE programm, Vingegaard will not going to win the Tour in 2025, nevertheless i am confident they will do it, in this dirt game, because at the end of the day Visma is rabobank and those guys Plugge, Niermann hate to lose, and will do everything they can without limits.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I always said and is not the first time, i will say it again, as long as the teams have a programm of similar quality, and as longs things stays in the 6.2/6.3 w/kg in 35/40 min, like not so outrageous perfomances, like in the 90s, i have not a big problem with that.

Things changed this year, and if Vingegaard does 7 w/kg during 40 min on la plagne i will say the same thing about the state of cycling and how he is full of doping(i will not be so mad, only because one reason. I like more his personality), but the case of Pogacar you know is way more outrageous, because he is doing what he is doing in every fuc*** race. You know very well that Pogacar won races in 2022 and 2023, but it wasn't this supremacy, and i wasn't that mad when he won those races, for the reasons i explained.

Again, I'm not arguing that Pogi is overkilling it, as you said all kind of races. Sure, he's versatile but he could've abstained from another long-ranger today. This was unnecessary. At the same time you are forgetting that Vingo did an even bigger pull (than 7 w/kg) on PDB actually and I won't even mention how crazy were Jorgenson's watts in the first part. I also don't recall you criticizing Vingo for outrageous "TT of the century" last year. UAE and JV are both playing this game, the latter are on the backfoot this year but mostly due to crashes of their top stars, methinks.

 

[Salvarani]

Fábio Paim was a bigger talent than Cristiano Ronaldo as a junior. Ronaldo, you know who he is, Paim, you don't have a clue. For you, the best junior=best rider in the world in the future. I will not continue this conversation, it's pointless

More juniors fail than succeeds as a pro.

Throughout most sports.

 

[E_F_]

First time up San Luca (out of 5).

Somehow worse than I thought.

 

[Salvarani]

First time up San Luca (out of 5).

He countered on Remco attack who opened up the finale.

 

[Netserk]

Again, I'm not arguing that Pogi is overkilling it, as you said all kind of races. Sure, he's versatile but he could've abstained from another long-ranger today. This was unnecessary. At the same time you are forgetting that Vingo did an even bigger pull (than 7 w/kg) on PDB actually and I won't even mention how crazy were Jorgenson's watts in the first part. I also don't recall you criticizing Vingo for outrageous "TT of the century" last year. UAE and JV are both playing this game, the latter are on the backfoot this year but mostly due to crashes of their top stars, methinks.

Combloux was not comparable to Plateau de Beille.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

No, it isn't. Cyclists from big nations (nations that have tradition in cycling) are "professional" way earlier.

It is ridiculously wrong to claim that Slovenia has zero cycling history, however. Slovenia also absolutely has traditions in cycling. Do yourself - and me - a great favor and read this before you make further uneducated comments on this matter.

It's also wrong to claim that the Slovenians don't know what they're doing as far as talent development goes. And that's across the board, they are extremely good at developing talents in virtually every sport. Slovenia is probably one of the most active countries in the world to begin with - hiking, running, skiing, and cycling are wildly popular, for example - and they have well-educated coaches in their primary schools where sports are an important part of their schedules.

Just because he wasn't shoved into some Alberto Contador-run program at 15 it doesn't mean that he wasn't receiving well-qualified training schedules and nutrition plans at a young age. Slovenia isn't some third-world country and especially not as far as sporting culture goes.

 

[snipeheem]

Yes, he is more talented than the other UAE riders.

For sure he is more talented that boy from your avi

 

[Salvarani]

Combloux was not comparable to Plateau de Beille.

Agreed

Combloux was way more insane and the biggest outlier of performance against the rest of the field one could find

 

[Froome]

Again, I'm not arguing that Pogi is overkilling it, as you said all kind of races. Sure, he's versatile but he could've abstained from another long-ranger today. At the same time you are forgetting that Vingo did an even bigger pull (than 7 w/kg) on PDB actually and I won't even mention how crazy were Jorgenson's watts in the first part. I also don't recall you criticizing Vingo for outrageous "TT of the century" last year. UAE and JV are both playing this game, the latter are on the backfoot this year but mostly due to crashes of their top stars.

I already said to you, i wasn't here in July 2023 during the Tour. I have this account 2020 or 2021, but i wasn't here at the time.

This is not the thread of Vingegaard, are you expect me to say something about him here? You can question me there about that perfomance in the ITT, and i will going to say he was full of doping again, but i repeat, i think uae and visma had a similar programm in 2023. The numbers produced in that ITT were similar to other 10/15 min effort in that year.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Combloux was not comparable to Plateau de Beille.

Vingo's PDB performance was incredible as well. Even more so if you take into account:
1) his preparations
2) the fact that he dragged Pogacar on his wheel for many kilometers and
3) the fact that he didn't pace his effort optimally (he wanted to drop Pog too much doing like 7.2-7.3 w/kg).

 

[snipeheem]

The worst part of Pog and etc i am 1000% sure he will never be caught