Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Netserk]

As to that monoxide, it is well known to be a rather nasty poison. If you breathe enough of it, you W/kg production will promptly go to zero and stay there for good. It is now carefully touted by the apologists as a cheap version of attitude training of sorts. The simple-minded idea behind it is essentially the good old "what does not kill us makes us stronger". In my view, this is just yet another smoke screen for those who do not quite believe in the narrative of "normal training" and "good varied nutrition" that the poor Teddy was finally provided this year.

Do you also consider xenon a smokescreen, a simple-minded idea?

I don't think apologists tout a banned agent [S2.1.2: Hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF) activating agents] such as carbon-monoxide as the answer.

 

[vwpe]

This is the best thread ever, because we are talking about the biggest cheater of all time.

I can speak wherever i want on this thread about this sneaky guy, so this is the best thread ever, and clinic is awesome.

As long as were not beeing hypocrits right. Hes just the best of all time the hate is awkward.

 

[vwpe]

He just reached 2 million on instagram too last i checked lets find something to dislike about that too, were the 0.1% we will figure it out. He beats everyone else fav sure I get it but the guy is really good.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Yeah, but the vast majority of pro cyclists get paid to help their leaders win. If their leaders don't win anymore then the sponsors pull out or drastically lower wages. It's the market baby. If over a prolonged period one leader is a hog (through "piggy eating up the slop" or devouring new slop), then sooner or later the competition and the union gets infuriated, then hostile. We haven't quite gotten to this point yet, but, if he keeps this up, the tables will inevitably turn on him. It's like tax invasion. You can't be a pig or else, sooner or later, they come after you.

I agree to what you are saying and consider this scenario fairly likely at this point. I am just not quite sure that such "sponsor mutiny" is inevitable. First, sponsors can surely be incentivized by the overall system to endure the circus a bit longer. Second, just think about how many riders -- even team leaders -- actually do get big wins, and for how many teams -- and respective sponsors -- just placings, stages etc. are enough to stay interested. Take Pinot, for example, the rider I liked quite a lot, by the way. He was a centerpiece of his team for quite a long time and achieved some very good results. But how many of them were big wins? Lombardia, Tour podium and then some top 5's and 10's in grand tours. Three stages in TDF and a few more in Giro and Vuelta. The sponsors stayed relatively happy all that time and did not pull out. Now take the current circus scenario. The new Merckx (and even better, according to the old Eddy himself) is cannibalizing all the big wins (with something still left to Matt vdP, Remco and maybe a couple more lucky ones). The official narrative goes like: "What a time to be a cycling fan!", "We feel blessed to live now!" etc., i.e. just like now. So the relatively minor placings by "normal" riders take on a higher significance: "He took 5th in TDF in the great Pog era." etc. Sponsors might just be happy with that. We will see where the circus goes in the next couple of years.

 

[Extinction]

I agree to what you are saying and consider this scenario fairly likely at this point. I am just not quite sure that such "sponsor mutiny" is inevitable. First, sponsors can surely be incentivized by the overall system to endure the circus a bit longer. Second, just think about how many riders -- even team leaders -- actually do get big wins, and for how many teams -- and respective sponsors -- just placings, stages etc. are enough to stay interested. Take Pinot, for example, the rider I liked quite a lot, by the way. He was a centerpiece of his team for quite a long time and achieved some very good results. But how many of them were big wins? Lombardia, Tour podium and then some top 5's and 10's in grand tours. Three stages in TDF and a few more in Giro and Vuelta. The sponsors stayed relatively happy all that time and did not pull out. Now take the current circus scenario. The new Merckx (and even better, according to the old Eddy himself) is cannibalizing all the big wins (with something still left to Matt vdP, Remco and maybe a couple more lucky ones). The official narrative goes like: "What a time to be a cycling fan!", "We feel blessed to live now!" etc., i.e. just like now. So the relatively minor placings by "normal" riders take on a higher significance: "He took 5th in TDF in the great Pog era." etc. Sponsors might just be happy with that. We will see where the circus goes in the next couple of years.

I love Pinot, who kisses his donkies, but he is French and satisfied that market by almost being the first viable contender for the Tour since alas Hinault. The great hope as it were. Yet this won't satisfy global financial expectations. The new mega-sponsors with no history in the sport just want the big prizes, otherwise they turn to sailing or whatever. The quaint historical compensations of lesser victories/placings are no longer relevant today. It's a viscious competitive beast, with doping the only constant. The Romans said if you want peace make war. In response to this, according to Tacitus, the Scottish chief Calgagus said of the Romans: " ...they make a desert and call it peace (ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant)". Well if the present war being played out with Pogacar turns into a desert, there might not be anybody left to enjoy the peace, because the sport shall be dead. The teams feel this presure and know a rigged game cannot go beyond certain limits or else collapse.

PS: How many leaders can potentially claim all the monuments, primary stage races, all GTs and Worlds at once? These are the only races that matter to sponsors. If one rider today monopolizes them then why invest further? Wait till he retires or pull out in this fickle world of cycling? Only Merckx and Hinault were of this calibre in the past. Yet not even they dominated the competition as Pogacar did this year, and the level is much higher today. It doesn't make sense.

 

[chris_sssss]

He obviously has to be more talented or he wouldnt be winning in this way or fashion.

He has improved each season and progressed each year. Thats way more believable then crushing everyone at a young age... which I think there are stories about that he actually did in Slovenia as a young kid.

Basing your whole argument around that he wasnt a talent because of fewer wins in juniors against riders from far greater cycling nations and richer backgrounds is not a solid ground to stand on.

He still achieved a lot of great things riding for small clubs in his native country and then developed and grew from finally getting the chance to ride bigger races and against tougher competition. He adapted fast through each season from the juniors to the U23s and in his first pro season, onwards, which actually speaks to the talent that was already there.

I find it way more weird that someone can just change sport and start to crush everybody within a short amount of time. It is not strange to me those guys doesnt live up to the hype and fails when becoming pros. It actually more rare that someone continues to crush, instead of someone who develops and grows into it from working at something all their life.

I´m sorry but have you noticed the progress that Pogacar made this winter? He didn´t just tart cycling, he was already 25 years, 2 times TDF winner, multiple monument winner and dominant no 1 in the world...no way it is a natural progression to improve your level around 10% and beating every other rider by a margin...

 

[Oldermanish]

I suppose you could say there were some qualifying circumstances as to why his particular dominance was so unbelievable, that the stars aligned in his favor, that there was no competition at the Giro, that Remco and Jonas crashed badly in the run-up to the Giro, etc., etc. On the face of it, one could argue the point. However, upon further consideration, I really don't think what we got was just "business as usual." The reasons for this are several, beginning with the fact that he had a remarkable increase in power/efficiency that was evident from his first race to his most recent over a period that has spanned from March to October. In modern cycling this is simply unheard of, while, unlike in previous seasons, Pogacar showed no moment of défaillance at any point during that time. At the same time, despite being badly injured, both Vingegaard and Evenepoel put up their best performances at the Tour and still got crushed. Leaving aside last year's Tour, when Tadej had a rough ride getting to the start in good shape, he was so much better than at Tour 22 when he soundly lost to Vingegaard. Now, all things being equal talent wise, the fact that Pogacar so thoroughly beat Vingegaard this time, despite the latter putting out his best numbers, indicates that Giannetti-Maxtin increased the dosage without compunction. Worlds was an appalling demonstration of setting no limits with such mischief and duplicity. Coming from them, the schemers behind Ricco and Piepoli, now funded by petrol dollars, really is too much for some to take (including myself). And then he wins 6 stages in both Giro and Tour, not only this, but the fashion in which he has won throughout the season with long distance attacks. And now Worlds and then Emilia. Again, this is unheard of in the modern era or the past, for that matter. He rubs it in everyone's faces. If they don't dial it down, I swear there will be no reason to follow the races he's in from here on out.

The fact that almost all of the 2nd tier guys posted their best "numbers" suggests the technology, such as it is; is shared across the teams. Pogacar's version is certainly more potent. As for UAE's role in all of it IMO we all likely share the same opinion. Not good for the sport.

 

[Raest]

To some extent UAEs dominance this year was helped by the Visma's dismal luck. Van Aert crashed uncharacteristically too many times, Vingegaard nearly got himself killed and Kuss was badly affected by covid whereas many other key riders had serious crashes.

 

[Extinction]

To some extent UAEs dominance this year was helped by the Visma's dismal luck. Van Aert crashed uncharacteristically too many times, Vingegaard nearly got himself killed and Kuss was badly affected by covid whereas many other key riders had serious crashes.

But we ask ourselves, why does a nation like UAE invest so fragrantly in the sport at all? Is cycling popular in that country? Are there any real financial incentives for those invested to fund cycling, other then expanding capital portfolios? Who watches cycling in UAE? We know the answer, but we might get censored for pointing this out.

 

[Extinction]

Some here continue to mock and scream with rage how Pogacar is cheating. They want to be relevant and looking someone to support their hate but somehow I have been thinking "how miserable are their life to just write constantly crappy posts? Is this way to decrease their frustration?"

No frustration, but only pointing out the absurd dominance makes Merckx look like a chump.

View: https://youtu.be/sziZ6PejrfM?si=lJDL6sZICtWyYVEM

 

[Ripper]

He just reached 2 million on instagram too last i checked lets find something to dislike about that too, were the 0.1% we will figure it out. He beats everyone else fav sure I get it but the guy is really good.

Serious question - what are you rambling about? I don't think most posters have been terribly concerned about instagram and rider popularity. You seem to be trying to draw a connection between just having a different rider as a preference and thus some form of envy or something. A number of posters have indicated they have quite liked pogacar, but just find the over the top outrageousness of his performance has impacted their ability to believe it anymore. Or are you just trolling?

 

[Casual cyclist]

Do you also consider xenon a smokescreen, a simple-minded idea?

I don't think apologists tout a banned agent [S2.1.2: Hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF) activating agents] such as carbon-monoxide as the answer.

I said "carefully touted". It's not the outright apologists. Those just keep singing the same BS tune: "Pog is clean , just talented, new coach, intervals, varied carb intake" etc. There is also their second line of defense for those not gullible enough to believe the above mentioned BS. That line is in full display on this forum. It goes roughly like "Yeah, he dopes, but no more than others". And, for additional effect, for those who are still in doubt, there is that mysterious "CO rebreather" sounding somewhat sinister, but still much better than say, a motor.

I have not heard xenon mentioned yet, honestly. I can surmise that, being chemically inert, it could be used as an oxygen replacement agent with no harmful side effects. It would amount to a simulated attitude training. But that can only go so far, not as far as full-blown EPO, for example. Monoxide is poisonous, on the other hand, and using it for aerobic capacity improvement sounds similar to that comical "project Orion" plans of long ago where a rocket for interplanetary travel was supposed to be propelled forward... by a series of smallish nuclear explosions.

P.S. Speaking of apologists, they are not always straightforward. They have their moves, some of which we have witnessed here in the last couple of days. One of the popular ones and somewhat effective is simple sidetracking of the discussion. Like directing it towards Newton, Euler and the likes. For the sake of variety, bodybuilding could be brought into focus as well. I have another good one for them: classical music. Indeed, how many Mozarts and Beethovens were there? Why not liken Eddy to the former and Pog to the latter?

 

[Casual cyclist]

He just reached 2 million on instagram too last i checked lets find something to dislike about that too, were the 0.1% we will figure it out. He beats everyone else fav sure I get it but the guy is really good.

This. Is exactly what I was saying: the new crop of fans of the instagram/tiktok generation with the fitting intelligence/critical thinking capacity. I am curious why it is still that little. They probably need to "up" the "ante" some more next year. How about GT treble with 10 stages in each and 4 monuments on top. That should bring instagram numbers to proper serious levels.

 

[Extinction]

The fact that almost all of the 2nd tier guys posted their best "numbers" suggests the technology, such as it is; is shared across the teams. Pogacar's version is certainly more potent. As for UAE's role in all of it IMO we all likely share the same opinion. Not good for the sport.

Yeah, as I've been arguing, because I think it really happened, Giannetti-Matxin simply upped the dosage and so Teddy went balistic. Ricco was an un popular figure, because he was brutally straightforward, said what's on his mind unhipocritically. With Tadej it's different. They think they can do whatever they want with impunity. I just hope the floor falls out beneath them.

 

[peterfin]

Yeah, as I've been arguing, because I think it really happened, Giannetti-Matxin simply upped the dosage and so Teddy went balistic.

It would be great to see a study with relative performance increases between teams to evaluate who is benefiting most of both the world and pro teams to start untangling the web. Kern Pharma shows that a team-managed program is possible even with minor budget but possibly only for a few riders and for a specific period. UAE seems to have an all-year and all-team program focussed on Pogacar but with others such as Hirschi maximizing their chances also. Visma is running behind, maybe because they are more cautious. The focus is mainly on Vingegaard who asks no questions and just executes. In general, riders and teams in regions with less media and regulations seem to make the biggest leaps this year (UAE, Kern Pharma, Portugal ...), which indicates that it is widespread now and those which can take the highest risk make most progress.

 

[MartinGT]

The "leave some for the others" comment would drink water if this wasn't a professional sport. Do you see Barcelona/Real Madrid/Man City gift wins because they already wrapped up the championship? Does Djokovic gift slams because he already won like 20 of them? Does Verstappen lead for 60 laps and then just lets others pass him, because he already won 18 races? Of course not. But in cycling you somehow should because...because it might hurt someone feelings lol.

I get what you're saying. But it well accepted that football gets a clear pass at doping. As does a lot of other sports. Footballers get ridiculous money. Cyclists a decent domestique will get 6 figures, but others? Its about keeping the balance in the peloton.

 

[MartinGT]

At what distance does Pog go today? The weather is horrendous, so he will be rubbing his hands.

 

[Divergence]

I said "carefully touted". It's not the outright apologists. Those just keep singing the same BS tune: "Pog is clean , just talented, new coach, intervals, varied carb intake" etc. There is also their second line of defense for those not gullible enough to believe the above mentioned BS. That line is in full display on this forum. It goes roughly like "Yeah, he dopes, but no more than others". And, for additional effect, for those who are still in doubt, there is that mysterious "CO rebreather" sounding somewhat sinister, but still much better than say, a motor.

I have not heard xenon mentioned yet, honestly. I can surmise that, being chemically inert, it could be used as an oxygen replacement agent with no harmful side effects. It would amount to a simulated attitude training. But that can only go so far, not as far as full-blown EPO, for example. Monoxide is poisonous, on the other hand, and using it for aerobic capacity improvement sounds similar to that comical "project Orion" plans of long ago where a rocket for interplanetary travel was supposed to be propelled forward... by a series of smallish nuclear explosions.

P.S. Speaking of apologists, they are not always straightforward. They have their moves, some of which we have witnessed here in the last couple of days. One of the popular ones and somewhat effective is simple sidetracking of the discussion. Like directing it towards Newton, Euler and the likes. For the sake of variety, bodybuilding could be brought into focus as well. I have another good one for them: classical music. Indeed, how many Mozarts and Beethovens were there? Why not liken Eddy to the former and Pog to the latter?

To be clear. I do not like Pog much (more than Vingo but less than pretty much everybody else) and I find it extremely unwatchable when he attacks with more than 50k to go. Additionally, if I had to bet, I would say he is probably using prohibited "training" methods. But I am unable to tell you what those are. There is no smoking gun. And I have to be intellectually honest and acknowledge that. Then the question becomes how would one explain such dominance if everything is above the board. That is where exceptional people come into the discussion. There have been such exceptional people and I am leaving the possibility open for Pog to be such an exceptional person.

 

[peterfin]

At what distance does Pog go today? The weather is horrendous, so he will be rubbing his hands.

Salita dei Ronchi climb at 87.8 km. Remco accelerates and Pogi goes nuclear. Remco stops immediately to take a hot shower in the bus and Pogi wins with +10 minutes advance peddling through submerged roads with swimming goggles borrowed from his Chinese friend Pan Zhanle. It will be crazy. His Instagram following will double in a day.

 

[Notarobot]

That is certainly the case. It is cheap sci-fi. There is even a disclaimer provided: that complicated looking text about "CRISPR" is said to be AI generated, i.e. produced by an entity with no brain at all. Of course, there exists an abstract possibility of producing positive genetic changes and making a person stronger, faster longer lived... Just like there exist an abstract possibility of organizing a successful manned mission to Mars, for instance. Moreover, both of these will be done some day. But not today and not tomorrow. The modern science and technology is not even close yet.

As to that monoxide, it is well known to be a rather nasty poison. If you breathe enough of it, you W/kg production will promptly go to zero and stay there for good. It is now carefully touted by the apologists as a cheap version of attitude training of sorts. The simple-minded idea behind it is essentially the good old "what does not kill us makes us stronger". In my view, this is just yet another smoke screen for those who do not quite believe in the narrative of "normal training" and "good varied nutrition" that the poor Teddy was finally provided this year. They should also check bearings in his wheels. I bet they will be found to be super tight and, if properly adjusted, will give him another 10%. Maybe next year.

In my experience, these days, if there is a phenomenon allowing different explanations so that one is obviously technically feasible but may seem to be unlikely "societally" (too blatant, too outrageous etc.) and the other would be more societally acceptable but does not appear to be quite as technically feasible (or the technical feasibility thereof seems relatively murky and doubtful ), one should always lean to the former. One could call this approach the "presumption of lack of miracles" of sorts. I always found it to be more reliable than others.

I don't want to argue. But it's not sci fi. UAE spends millions and millions of dollars on CRISPR. They don't know what the word ethical means. And let's be honoust, y'all guessing what kind of dope they use. There's no dope that makes you go this much faster. It's genetic manipulation. It's non detectable. It will take some time (as in +15 years) but you will think of notarobot when all this comes out. Just know where you heard it first!

 

[Netserk]

There's no dope that makes you go this much faster.

It did 30 years ago, roughly.

 

[Raest]

Well there is the more mundane explanation that Pog is indeed a specimen that naturally would be at the extreme of what is considered physiologically possible (keyword here: naturally) then taken to new levels of performance by using well known and proven methods of enhancement.
If for example an FTP of 6.3-6.4 W/kg is hypothesized to be the ceiling of natural performance and Pog is an outlier who could do 6.5, good old EPO and the reported 10% gain it provides would take him to 7+ W/kg which is what has been estimated as being his FTP based on the Plateu de Beiles performance (and others).
Same could be argued for Vingo. They don't have to be donkeys, turned into thoroubreds via some cutting edge and dangerous method.

 

[Extinction]

Well there is the more mundane explanation that Pog is indeed a specimen that naturally would be at the extreme of what is considered physiologically possible (keyword here: naturally) then taken to new levels of performance by using well known and proven methods of enhancement.
If for example an FTP of 6.3-6.4 W/kg is hypothesized to be the ceiling of natural performance and Pog is an outlier who could do 6.5, good old EPO and the reported 10% gain it provides would take him to 7+ W/kg which is what has been estimated as being his FTP based on the Plateu de Beiles performance (and others).
Same could be argued for Vingo. They don't have to be donkeys, turned into thoroubreds via some cutting edge and dangerous method.

Sure, Pog is definitely no donkey, but you have to realize that the mentality of those managing him is full arms race, now funded by petrol dollars. Somehow they have managed to stay in the sport, but today with the economic means to reign over it. From fallen Saunier-Duval to Lord of the Rings, it's mind boggling.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Yeah, as I've been arguing, because I think it really happened, Giannetti-Matxin simply upped the dosage and so Teddy went balistic. Ricco was an un popular figure, because he was brutally straightforward, said what's on his mind unhipocritically. With Tadej it's different. They think they can do whatever they want with impunity. I just hope the floor falls out beneath them.

When it doubt, double the does.

 

[solo80k]

It did 30 years ago, roughly.

On PdB they smoked Pantani's record by a huge margin. Even our old friend Landini was almost as fast as Italian Pirate.