Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

I'm hating what he and his very dirty backround team are doing to cycling once again

Except its not just this team. This is whataboutism but we simply cannot skirt around the fact despite this Visma beat Pogacar in the 2022 and 2023 Tour de France and were super confident they could beat him again at the 2024 Tour. Vingegaard's climbing performance at the Tour confirmed that level. An arms race has been going on since 2020.

 

[Extinction]

Armstrong had the financial means to have the best, so he paid to have the best. He did everything he could to win. Being more naturally gifted can also mean that he responds better or suffers less side effects from certain PEDs.

My point is that, even within sports where doping is legal, outliers exist and dominate the sport. Of course the quality of the doping protocols make a difference, I just don't think UAE is that far away from Visma. For me, Poga is a clear outlier. This season has been absolutely ridiculous and drugs alone would not explain it.

Vingegaard's Tour performance was also outrageous, considering the accident and how he had to change his preparation, so I don't think UAE program is that far from what Visma is doing.

Bingo. He may be the most talented, but in the past the margine of gain, given the costant of doping, should still see him on the EDGE at times to beat (a moment of suffering) other highly programed athletes with similar gifts. Instead he constantly crushed them all. It's never been done. This is supersonic cycling.

 

[Cookster15]

given the costant of doping, should still see him on the EDGE at times to beat (a moment of suffering)

But that happened in the Tour, you missed stage 11? It was being discussed in PRR literally 2 hours ago?

 

[Extinction]

But that happened in the Tour, you missed stage 11? It was being discussed in PRR literally 2 hours ago?

I didn't miss stage 11, but it wasn't really an example. He lost a sprint after a normal show, and then he came back with a vengance.

 

[Blobs]

He has improved each season and progressed each year. Thats way more believable then crushing everyone at a young age... which I think there are stories about that he actually did in Slovenia as a young kid.

His w/kg in the Tour were roughly the same between 20-23, then they took a 〜10% leap this year.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Pogacar 2019-2023 cleanz?

Shades of Contador's legendary 2013 attempt?

 

[Extinction]

Cycling is another sport compared to 40 years ago, where the athletes were equally talented, but didn't have the combo of sport science and the investments in firepower. So now we work with the best talents, on the best programs and see who responds the best under "optional" conditions. But it's become so artificial as to create confusion. It's like the difference between military warfare today and ten years ago.

 

[Stablo]

TY. All this thread is useless, close it. For him, I am guessing but he knows what is going on. Can't deal with this hyprocrisy...

An honest question, why are you here then? This the only part of the forum, where you can discuss doping related topics, so suprise suprise it is about doping/cheating related things. Are you bored of the fanboyism in the normal Poggie and other race threads or what is the issue, let people speculate about cheating and what they think is going on, here where it's allowed.
And I wrote this for you, but there are couple of other posters who should take a look in the mirror and ask the same question from themselfs. Peace🙏🏼

 

[topcat]

Pog, think of the crazy dreamer who believes in you. The bigger the fool, the harder the fall.

 

[Peyroteo94]

An honest question, why are you here then? This the only part of the forum, where you can discuss doping related topics, so suprise suprise it is about doping/cheating related things. Are you bored of the fanboyism in the normal Poggie and other race threads or what is the issue, let people speculate about cheating and what they think is going on, here where it's allowed.
And I wrote this for you, but there are couple of other posters who should take a look in the mirror and ask the same question from themselfs. Peace🙏🏼

Sarcasm... jesus christ

 

[Stablo]

Except its not just this team. This is whataboutism but we simply cannot skirt around the fact despite this Visma beat Pogacar in the 2022 and 2023 Tour de France and were super confident they could beat him again at the 2024 Tour. Vingegaard's climbing performance at the Tour confirmed that level. An arms race has been going on since 2020.

And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.

 

[cnort]

That gelato is probably awesome

In some of the rougher housing estates around Dublin, the ice cream van would come round all year and was operated by a drug dealer. But I'm sure Ricco sticks strictly to cold stuff served in a cone.

 

[Stablo]

Sarcasm... jesus christ

But the question is still valid, isn't it? If you're so happy with Poggie, UAE&CO, what they're doing and achieving, then why are you here. It's an honest question, cause I dont really get it. Or is it too annoying, that the amount of people who dont believe in anything in this farce, is growing, so you just have to keep trying to convince, that his not on a better program/motor, but it's only about pure super talent.

 

[Peyroteo94]

But the question is still valid, isn't it? If you're so happy with Poggie, UAE&CO, what they're doing and achieving, then why are you here. It's an honest question, cause I dont really get it. Or is it too annoying, that the amount of people who dont believe in anything in this farce, is growing, so you just have to keep trying to convince, that his not on a better program/motor, but it's only about pure super talent.

[[content deleted]] First of all, this is not Pogacar’s depreciation thread or appreciation thread we are here to discuss "The clinic", I will not continue this conversation because I already made my argument very clear and no, I never said he is just more talented as the only reason to be better than others.
To conclude, you are no one to tell me where I can be or I can't.

 

[Stablo]

[[Deleted content]]. First of all, this is not Pogacar’s depreciation thread or appreciation thread we are here to discuss "The clinic", I will not continue this conversation because I already made my argument very clear and no, I never said he is just more talented as the only reason to be better than others.
To conclude, you are no one to tell me where I can be or I can't.

[[content deleted]]And yes I have made my opinion and argument very clear too, this indeed is the Pogacar thread here in the clinic. It just felt you are on a mission against me and others who dont share the view on Poggie. I didn't tell you where you can be or not, I was just curious🤷‍♂️🙏🏼now you gave an answer, sort of but anyway.

[[content deleted]]

 

[Divergence]

Newton being extraordinarily prolific is a measure of accomplishments. Aerobic power is closer to aptitude. The two qualities will be distributed very dissimilarly.

I agree with this. But this is not what I am saying. Mental aptitude is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for Newton's accomplishments. Similarly, aerobic aptitude is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for Pog's dominance. Therefore, one needs more than just aptitude for great accomplishments. My point is, whatever that more is, has been possessed by people such as Newton and therefore it is possible to be possessed by Pog as well (however different "the more" might be in these two cases). This is all am am saying.
Now, what is written above does not prove or disprove anything about Pog's "training methods".
I am still puzzled as to what exactly is going on. Back in the 90s (possibly in a longer time period as well) it was pretty clear to anybody bothered to look what is going on and which substances exactly. Today, it is not at all obvious at all. At least not to me.

 

[peterfin]

This thread has 160 posts per day. The Pogacar fan thread is also hot with 120 post per day but the clinic is accelerating. Cyclingnews should build an AI bot to give us a daily summary because this is going faster than a Pog attack. I had a DNF today.

 

[noob]

This thread has 160 posts per day. The Pogacar fan thread is also hot with 120 post per day but the clinic is accelerating. Cyclingnews should build an AI bot to give us a daily summary because this is going faster than a Pog attack. I had a DNF today.

I sometimes feel lately like this thread is like "bots and trolls united". I feel ya

 

[Cookster15]

And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.

That’s fine but it was “so bad” after stage 16 at last year’s TdF. I just prefer objectivity. I don’t recall you jumping up and down in the Vingegaard thread after the Combleux TT? But you are not alone. An arms race. Maybe if Visma backs off so will Gianetti.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

I am not saying Pog is not a terrific athlete with top drawer accelerations and power output. That is all his
I just dont buy how he never seems tired , no matter what race he rides
Its just not natural. And to say oh his team mates are not that far behind him in results means nought ..they too are top athletes' and yet they are a million miles behind him in walking away with everything and getting result after result after result in the same season.

. It was Armstrong's recovery that stood out and we all know what fuelled that
and Steven Roche the last man to win the triple crown in 1987 ...that year his recovery was phenomenal also with suspicious doctors on payroll .(..but he banjaxed his knee in a crit after the worlds and was never able to race like that again)

Another man with great recovery was Valverde. He could race from one end of the year to the next and win up to the age of 40. Unbelievable and it was. And we all know about Operación Puerto. And a leopard doesn't change his spots

 

[Oldermanish]

Armstrong had the financial means to have the best, so he paid to have the best. He did everything he could to win. Being more naturally gifted can also mean that he responds better or suffers less side effects from certain PEDs.

My point is that, even within sports where doping is legal, outliers exist and dominate the sport. Of course the quality of the doping protocols make a difference, I just don't think UAE is that far away from Visma. For me, Poga is a clear outlier. This season has been absolutely ridiculous and drugs alone would not explain it.

Vingegaard's Tour performance was also outrageous, considering the accident and how he had to change his preparation, so I don't think UAE program is that far from what Visma is doing.

Yes and no on Vindegaard. What Jonas had at his disposal in the way of doctors, PTs and legal prescriptions on his way to recovery would most certainly contribute to a rapid, but maybe not sustainable peak for LeTour.
The aftermath of competing suddenly and intensely has it's consequences. Much different extremes, IMO.

 

[Oldermanish]

And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.

Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.

 

[Ripper]

Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.

I think pogacar's season was more than business as usual. Regardless of others misfortunes, he's been on form for everything, all year long.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think pogacar's season was more than business as usual. Regardless of others misfortunes, he's been on form for everything, all year long.

No question. That long of a... rhythm, er Peak or peaks?

 

[Stablo]

That’s fine but it was “so bad” after stage 16 at last year’s TdF. I just prefer objectivity. I don’t recall you jumping up and down in the Vingegaard thread after the Combleux TT? But you are not alone. An arms race. Maybe if Visma backs off so will Gianetti.

There is a simple reason why I wasn't here jumping up and down after Combloux TT😉. It took Strade, Catalonia, LBL, the most dominant Giro in a very long while(prop the worst in the modern cycling era), and the PDB to snap the elastic for me. Then I decided to also register, instead of just reading the forum and discussing cycling topics with real life friends.
Combloux was alien too, but still just one performance, in an event the rider has foccused all season, not doing it on every terrain, every race and all year long.