Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

Except its not just this team. This is whataboutism but we simply cannot skirt around the fact despite this Visma beat Pogacar in the 2022 and 2023 Tour de France and were super confident they could beat him again at the 2024 Tour. Vingegaard's climbing performance at the Tour confirmed that level. An arms race has been going on since 2020.

And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.

 

[cnort]

That gelato is probably awesome

In some of the rougher housing estates around Dublin, the ice cream van would come round all year and was operated by a drug dealer. But I'm sure Ricco sticks strictly to cold stuff served in a cone.

 

[Stablo]

Sarcasm... jesus christ

But the question is still valid, isn't it? If you're so happy with Poggie, UAE&CO, what they're doing and achieving, then why are you here. It's an honest question, cause I dont really get it. Or is it too annoying, that the amount of people who dont believe in anything in this farce, is growing, so you just have to keep trying to convince, that his not on a better program/motor, but it's only about pure super talent.

 

[Peyroteo94]

But the question is still valid, isn't it? If you're so happy with Poggie, UAE&CO, what they're doing and achieving, then why are you here. It's an honest question, cause I dont really get it. Or is it too annoying, that the amount of people who dont believe in anything in this farce, is growing, so you just have to keep trying to convince, that his not on a better program/motor, but it's only about pure super talent.

[[content deleted]] First of all, this is not Pogacar’s depreciation thread or appreciation thread we are here to discuss "The clinic", I will not continue this conversation because I already made my argument very clear and no, I never said he is just more talented as the only reason to be better than others.
To conclude, you are no one to tell me where I can be or I can't.

 

[Stablo]

[[Deleted content]]. First of all, this is not Pogacar’s depreciation thread or appreciation thread we are here to discuss "The clinic", I will not continue this conversation because I already made my argument very clear and no, I never said he is just more talented as the only reason to be better than others.
To conclude, you are no one to tell me where I can be or I can't.

[[content deleted]]And yes I have made my opinion and argument very clear too, this indeed is the Pogacar thread here in the clinic. It just felt you are on a mission against me and others who dont share the view on Poggie. I didn't tell you where you can be or not, I was just curious🤷‍♂️🙏🏼now you gave an answer, sort of but anyway.

[[content deleted]]

 

[Divergence]

Newton being extraordinarily prolific is a measure of accomplishments. Aerobic power is closer to aptitude. The two qualities will be distributed very dissimilarly.

I agree with this. But this is not what I am saying. Mental aptitude is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for Newton's accomplishments. Similarly, aerobic aptitude is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for Pog's dominance. Therefore, one needs more than just aptitude for great accomplishments. My point is, whatever that more is, has been possessed by people such as Newton and therefore it is possible to be possessed by Pog as well (however different "the more" might be in these two cases). This is all am am saying.
Now, what is written above does not prove or disprove anything about Pog's "training methods".
I am still puzzled as to what exactly is going on. Back in the 90s (possibly in a longer time period as well) it was pretty clear to anybody bothered to look what is going on and which substances exactly. Today, it is not at all obvious at all. At least not to me.

 

[peterfin]

This thread has 160 posts per day. The Pogacar fan thread is also hot with 120 post per day but the clinic is accelerating. Cyclingnews should build an AI bot to give us a daily summary because this is going faster than a Pog attack. I had a DNF today.

 

[noob]

This thread has 160 posts per day. The Pogacar fan thread is also hot with 120 post per day but the clinic is accelerating. Cyclingnews should build an AI bot to give us a daily summary because this is going faster than a Pog attack. I had a DNF today.

I sometimes feel lately like this thread is like "bots and trolls united". I feel ya

 

[Cookster15]

And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.

That’s fine but it was “so bad” after stage 16 at last year’s TdF. I just prefer objectivity. I don’t recall you jumping up and down in the Vingegaard thread after the Combleux TT? But you are not alone. An arms race. Maybe if Visma backs off so will Gianetti.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

I am not saying Pog is not a terrific athlete with top drawer accelerations and power output. That is all his
I just dont buy how he never seems tired , no matter what race he rides
Its just not natural. And to say oh his team mates are not that far behind him in results means nought ..they too are top athletes' and yet they are a million miles behind him in walking away with everything and getting result after result after result in the same season.

. It was Armstrong's recovery that stood out and we all know what fuelled that
and Steven Roche the last man to win the triple crown in 1987 ...that year his recovery was phenomenal also with suspicious doctors on payroll .(..but he banjaxed his knee in a crit after the worlds and was never able to race like that again)

Another man with great recovery was Valverde. He could race from one end of the year to the next and win up to the age of 40. Unbelievable and it was. And we all know about Operación Puerto. And a leopard doesn't change his spots

 

[Oldermanish]

Armstrong had the financial means to have the best, so he paid to have the best. He did everything he could to win. Being more naturally gifted can also mean that he responds better or suffers less side effects from certain PEDs.

My point is that, even within sports where doping is legal, outliers exist and dominate the sport. Of course the quality of the doping protocols make a difference, I just don't think UAE is that far away from Visma. For me, Poga is a clear outlier. This season has been absolutely ridiculous and drugs alone would not explain it.

Vingegaard's Tour performance was also outrageous, considering the accident and how he had to change his preparation, so I don't think UAE program is that far from what Visma is doing.

Yes and no on Vindegaard. What Jonas had at his disposal in the way of doctors, PTs and legal prescriptions on his way to recovery would most certainly contribute to a rapid, but maybe not sustainable peak for LeTour.
The aftermath of competing suddenly and intensely has it's consequences. Much different extremes, IMO.

 

[Oldermanish]

And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.

Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.

 

[Ripper]

Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.

I think pogacar's season was more than business as usual. Regardless of others misfortunes, he's been on form for everything, all year long.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think pogacar's season was more than business as usual. Regardless of others misfortunes, he's been on form for everything, all year long.

No question. That long of a... rhythm, er Peak or peaks?

 

[Stablo]

That’s fine but it was “so bad” after stage 16 at last year’s TdF. I just prefer objectivity. I don’t recall you jumping up and down in the Vingegaard thread after the Combleux TT? But you are not alone. An arms race. Maybe if Visma backs off so will Gianetti.

There is a simple reason why I wasn't here jumping up and down after Combloux TT😉. It took Strade, Catalonia, LBL, the most dominant Giro in a very long while(prop the worst in the modern cycling era), and the PDB to snap the elastic for me. Then I decided to also register, instead of just reading the forum and discussing cycling topics with real life friends.
Combloux was alien too, but still just one performance, in an event the rider has foccused all season, not doing it on every terrain, every race and all year long.

 

[Stablo]

Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.

Well I dont think this has been anywhere near business as usual, injuries or no injurues. PDBF was the first wtf is he on-moment for me from the monster. Then the next years Tour as a whole, took me back to Pharmastrong/Froomie memories. 2022&2023 was very suspicious too, but I was thinking, that well at least there's two of the aliens now. Then this year in whole has been the batsh*t craziest thing ever. If a rider had a very high alien like level even before and then you ad there something like 10% more in one winter and continue that from the start of the season to the end. Sure the training and nutrition was so bad before, that a change in that has made this all possible and we are witnessing a clean miracle season🤭

 

[Extinction]

Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.

I suppose you could say there were some qualifying circumstances as to why his particular dominance was so unbelievable, that the stars aligned in his favor, that there was no competition at the Giro, that Remco and Jonas crashed badly in the run-up to the Giro, etc., etc. On the face of it, one could argue the point. However, upon further consideration, I really don't think what we got was just "business as usual." The reasons for this are several, beginning with the fact that he had a remarkable increase in power/efficiency that was evident from his first race to his most recent over a period that has spanned from March to October. In modern cycling this is simply unheard of, while, unlike in previous seasons, Pogacar showed no moment of défaillance at any point during that time. At the same time, despite being badly injured, both Vingegaard and Evenepoel put up their best performances at the Tour and still got crushed. Leaving aside last year's Tour, when Tadej had a rough ride getting to the start in good shape, he was so much better than at Tour 22 when he soundly lost to Vingegaard. Now, all things being equal talent wise, the fact that Pogacar so thoroughly beat Vingegaard this time, despite the latter putting out his best numbers, indicates that Giannetti-Maxtin increased the dosage without compunction. Worlds was an appalling demonstration of setting no limits with such mischief and duplicity. Coming from them, the schemers behind Ricco and Piepoli, now funded by petrol dollars, really is too much for some to take (including myself). And then he wins 6 stages in both Giro and Tour, not only this, but the fashion in which he has won throughout the season with long distance attacks. And now Worlds and then Emilia. Again, this is unheard of in the modern era or the past, for that matter. He rubs it in everyone's faces. If they don't dial it down, I swear there will be no reason to follow the races he's in from here on out.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

What he did in the Giro on taking stages he didn't need to, nah leave some for the others.

The "leave some for the others" comment would drink water if this wasn't a professional sport. Do you see Barcelona/Real Madrid/Man City gift wins because they already wrapped up the championship? Does Djokovic gift slams because he already won like 20 of them? Does Verstappen lead for 60 laps and then just lets others pass him, because he already won 18 races? Of course not. But in cycling you somehow should because...because it might hurt someone feelings lol.

 

[topt]

Not so sure about that, in the UK for example the popularity of the sport has been declining for a few years now. Especially in the ametur racing, numbers are worryingly low especially in the youth races, compared to 10 years ago. I know the cost of living has a lot to do with it of course.
Judging by social media comments, people are already getting fed up with his dominance and predictability.

he he; i am sure it has nothing to do with sky sucking; were social media in UK also fed up with sky dominance.... its rhetorical question

 

[ashhutch1997]

he he; i am sure it has nothing to do with sky sucking; were social media in UK also fed up with sky dominance.... its rhetorical question

You cant compare Sky's dominance to Pogacar, Sky was only really the TDF, Pogacar is every dam race to a level we've not seen.
The media in the UK would often ask questions regarding their performances and legitimacy of them.

 

[hrotha]

The "leave some for the others" comment would drink water if this wasn't a professional sport. Do you see Barcelona/Real Madrid/Man City gift wins because they already wrapped up the championship? Does Djokovic gift slams because he already won like 20 of them? Does Verstappen lead for 60 laps and then just lets others pass him, because he already won 18 races? Of course not. But in cycling you somehow should because...because it might hurt someone feelings lol.

It's not about that, it's about making allies in the peloton. If you don't do it, it means you don't want/need allies, which of course can rub people the wrong way. It's only logical.

Those other sports you mention are not relevant comparisons because the dynamics are completely different, you can just win on your own whereas in cycling you're always competing against people who might combine their forces. When Verstappen has to worry about Norris and Leclerc taking turns in the chase group, going faster than they would be if they went solo, that's when the cycling comparison will make sense.

 

[topt]

You cant compare Sky's dominance to Pogacar, Sky was only really the TDF, Pogacar is every dam race to a level we've not seen.
The media in the UK would often ask questions regarding their performances and legitimacy of them.

I was talking about your claim about cycling popularity in UK

 

[Notarobot]

CRISPR.
If you were wondering what is going on right now.

 

[Notarobot]

- Genetic Enhancement: CRISPR could be used to edit genes associated with traits like strength, endurance, and cognitive abilities. For example, scientists have explored modifying genes related to muscle growth and metabolism.

- Ethical Concerns: Using CRISPR for performance enhancement raises significant ethical issues, particularly regarding fairness in sports, the potential for coercion, and the risks of unintended consequences. Regulatory bodies like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) are likely to have strict rules against genetic modifications for competitive advantages.

- The ability to trace CRISPR modifications in athletes through testing is complex and still being studied. Here are some key points regarding the traceability of CRISPR and its implications for sports:

1. Types of Genetic Modifications: CRISPR can be used to make various types of changes to an athlete's DNA, such as knocking out a gene, inserting a new gene, or altering the expression of existing genes. The specific changes made will affect how easily they can be detected.
2. Detection Challenges:
   • Mosaicism: If CRISPR is applied after an athlete's cells have developed, the edited cells may exist alongside unedited cells (mosaicism). This can make detection more challenging, as not all cells will show the genetic modification.
   • Transient Changes: Some CRISPR modifications may be temporary or reversible, which could complicate detection if the athlete stops using the technology.
   • Testing Technology: Current genetic testing methods primarily focus on detecting doping agents or substances rather than direct genetic modifications. Advanced techniques, like whole-genome sequencing, might be needed to identify specific CRISPR edits.
3. Potential Markers: If CRISPR were used to introduce foreign genes or make specific edits, scientists could theoretically develop tests to detect these markers. However, this would require ongoing research and the development of robust testing protocols.
4. Ethical and Regulatory Response: As awareness of CRISPR and its potential use in sports grows, regulatory bodies like WADA would likely invest in research to create testing methods. They may also define specific guidelines on what constitutes unfair advantage through genetic enhancement.
5. Consequences of Detection: If genetic modifications were detected, athletes could face significant penalties, including bans from competition. This could create a strong deterrent against the use of CRISPR for performance enhancement.

In summary, while CRISPR modifications might not be easily detectable with current testing methods, advancements in genetic testing and increased scrutiny in sports could change this landscape. Ethical considerations and regulatory measures will play a crucial role in addressing the challenges posed by genetic enhancements in athletics.

Text above is chatGPT.

 

[topt]

I think pogacar's season was more than business as usual. Regardless of others misfortunes, he's been on form for everything, all year long.

and this is a clear sign of doping based on cycling history, right....