Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

I also don't buy the some new substance meme. Any new substance is in theory detectable. Even if the substance itself has left the bloodstream or urine usually there are markers which can detected. Remember Contador got nailed for having a minute proportion of clenbuturol in his blood. Blood manipulation via autologous infusion is always harder to nail which is why the passport was developed to check against a rider's biological baseline.

In theory yes, but in practical testing, it is more complicated. The only reason the Clear, a friggin steroid, became testable was because a syringe was mailed in with the substance and Caitlin developed a test. So, not all new things are actually identifiable and therefore testable.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I don't think motor doping is being used by Pogacar . Its a bit like suggesting that Elvis is still alive and the moon landings were staged as the flag was fluttering. For one thing UCI would have no reason to be in collusion with UAE nor would they want to. I am not that cynical. And I cant see Pog doing it anyway as it is too risky

When we talk about doping I dont believe we are talking about doing something that is from the current banned list of PEDs or anything that is a mechanical advantage

However I do believe that Pog has this year been riding with an advantage, that is new , that the others have not yet caught up with and though probably not illegal (yet) is morally questionable. I think he and UAE can wholeheartedly say and think that they are clean as their advantage cannot be pointed to as such/illegal by anyone from the UCI

What can it be ? I dont know but you would have to be as blind as a bat not to see his improvement since last year and his miraculous ability to never get tired are not normal. Top riders are on their hands and knees after races and he is still jumping up and down and is never ever tired. On rest days he doesn't even have to rest.

This whole zone 2 and more sugar explanations is so ridiculous. A human body gets tired esp after racing 2 GTs. He does not seem to recognise that alot of how he behaves makes it all more questionable though the comms on ES would have you believe its all down to his physiology

In the 2023 Tour when he bonked and said he was 'dead' was like some turning point for him . I think he knew then he was going to do anything to not be there again in that position. Pogacar has a massive ego that he camouflages very well but he hates being beaten.

I also think his decision to not go to the Olympics now looks very shady when in his form he could have been walking away with Olympic gold and its hard to believe he did not want a chance at that achievement
Not an achievement of Merkx ? Would have elevated Pog's year and palmares into the stratosphere.


Unless the others get on the programme or UAE/Pog are sanctioned for whatever they are up to we are going to see alot of Pog domination.Oh well it just means I wont be watching much cycling in 2025. I love the sport for the unpredictability and tactics , none of which are on display in the world of domination. Its just so unexciting

Interesting. I should know this but is there more rigorous testing and/or testing by a different organization at the Olympics?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In theory yes, but in practical testing, it is more complicated. The only reason the Clear, a friggin steroid, became testable was because a syringe was mailed in with the substance and Caitlin developed a test. So, not all new things are actually identifiable and therefore testable.

We can discuss new undetectable substances, fine. But I'm more interested in the effect the substance have (whatever it is). Can it up VO2max to unseen values without altering blood parameters to extremes? (and violating biological passport as a result). This looks like SciFi to me, or the system is simply not working anymore (for whatever reason).

I also don't know any other way of upping VO2max significantly without blood manipulation (I suppose hypothetical gene doping could alter muscles structure and improve this part of the engine but I don't think it already became reality). There have been some theories regarding overclocking the engine efficiency at the same VO2max but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to speculate how it could be done artificially (beyond what a high-quality training can do) plus Teddy never looks like he's operating near VO2max anyway!

 

[MortiroloForever]

yet you have no problem watching Jonas win, interesting

If you think I am claiming this because I am Vingegaard fan you are absolutely wrong.

 

[Shakes]

Regarding Pogacar's new training, interesting tidbit of a rider that is leaving and has the same trainer as Pogacar:

Sjoerd Bax verlaat Pogacar en UAE met dubbel gevoel: 'Soms het idee dat ik sterker was dan m’n ploeggenoten'

Sjoerd Bax heeft zich twee seizoenen uitstekend verm

www.indeleiderstrui.nl

Ik heb dezelfde coach als Pogacar, maar als ik die vergelijk met m’n coach bij Alpecin-Deceuninck, dan ben ik daar niet beter van geworden. Het is ook geen hogere wiskunde natuurlijk.

Translation: I have the same trainer as Pogacar, but if I compare it to my trainer at Alpecin I haven't gotten any better. It's not complex math of course.

In short: He doesn't see a difference to his training at Alpecin-Deceuninck and it has not gotten him better compared to then. Obvious that there is no secret training sauce at UAE (as sport science is evolution, not revolution) which explains the huge step forwards.

 

[shadowrider]

Its my opinion that everyone has every right to question anything in cycling when one considers cycling history. And especially when someone commits himself to the likes of Matxin and Giannetti.

I do not know if Pogacar is doping, like all of us don't. But I am not convinced he's clean 100%. And for me the main reason is his team, Matxin and Giannetti, this will never change for me as long as he rides for those two. I do not understand why these two are even allowed to be there. And secondly I do not understand why a person like Giannetti gets a podium in media without any critical question, at least he gets that type of positive attention in the Dutch media.

That you don't like people here expressing their doubts, in whatever way, albeit some people do it in words no thought of so well. But is that really a problem? I am happy there is this community here where this is possible.

I have been reading this forum for years but never ever making an account or replying. Only now I have done so since I do think whatever is happening in cycling right now is worrysome, if, and its a very big if, pogacar is a doper, it will be bad for the sport to say the least. And every race since the giro I am more and more thinking this may be a possibility.

Apart from Matxin and Giannetti there is one thing I can not understand completely. The way Pogacar has been able to have peak performances in march, april, may, july, september and october. Sure bigger rest/training periods where there in June and August. But I have never ever seen pro cyclists succeed in having so many peak moments in a year, his little one off during the tour this year most likely was due to his confidence and not eating enough. Anyway, I always thought this to be physically impossible. Sure I considered it possible for someone to win all through the year... but with the amazing dominance like we have seen? With the freshness and composure displayed? I can not explain it. And please don't come with the childish GOAT terms... I want to see competition, I absolutely do not care about any type of GOAT.

But in the end, if he's clean and just that good it's not Pogacars fault and I can understand it's annoying that several cycling followers doubt him if he is clean. But hey, that also comes with being the absolute best in the display he puts out there...

Totally agree. A good, nuanced analysis.
But what makes the difference for me is not (only) the number of victories, the big lead he keeps taking, the increasingly longer solos he takes, but the astonishing freshness and lucidity that he exhibits during his long and extremely thorough attacks. As well as his extreme freshness after the finish. As some rightly point out, he sometimes looks fresher at the finish than at the start. That, combined with his four peak periods, convinces me that he (and also his teammates) do not compete in a natural manner, i.e. without unauthorized means.

 

[solo80k]

Regarding Pogacar's new training, interesting tidbit of a rider that is leaving and has the same trainer as Pogacar:

Sjoerd Bax verlaat Pogacar en UAE met dubbel gevoel: 'Soms het idee dat ik sterker was dan m’n ploeggenoten'

Sjoerd Bax heeft zich twee seizoenen uitstekend verm

www.indeleiderstrui.nl

Translation: I have the same trainer as Pogacar, but if I compare it to my trainer at Alpecin I haven't gotten any better. It's not complex math of course.

In short: He doesn't see a difference to his training at Alpecin-Deceuninck and it has not gotten him better compared to then. Obvious that there is no secret training sauce at UAE (as sport science is evolution, not revolution) which explains the huge step forwards.

You can say the same about Messi and some random guy from Barcelona, who wasn't even able to get into main lineup most of the time.

Yes, you have the same team and coach but it's not what separates the GOAT and some mediocre athletes.

And I'm not saying Pog is clean, just the perspective is very wrong.

 

[Raest]

You can say the same about Messi and some random guy from Barcelona, who wasn't even able to get into main lineup most of the time.

Yes, you have the same team and coach but it's not what separates the GOAT and some mediocre athletes.

And I'm not saying Pog is clean, just the perspective is very wrong.

That's not the point of the post quoted in your reply. If the reason for Pog's exceptional results was the training regime of UAE or moving from San Millan to Sola then the benefit would apply to every rider in the team, which is not the case here, therefore the argument is that it is not the training that is special but what is done outside of training that makes the difference.

 

[Rackham]

You can say the same about Messi and some random guy from Barcelona, who wasn't even able to get into main lineup most of the time.

Yes, you have the same team and coach but it's not what separates the GOAT and some mediocre athletes.

And I'm not saying Pog is clean, just the perspective is very wrong.

Football is incomparable. The skill level is something else. You can't teach a random person to play with a football like Messi. But you can take a random person and give them the watts per kilo to climb like Pog. Or like Armstrong.

How do you think a scrub like Floyd Landis won the Tour? You'll never see a random no-name no-talent guy win the football Ballon d'or, even doped out of his brains.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

You can say the same about Messi and some random guy from Barcelona, who wasn't even able to get into main lineup most of the time.

Yes, you have the same team and coach but it's not what separates the GOAT and some mediocre athletes.

And I'm not saying Pog is clean, just the perspective is very wrong.

EPO effected different athletes differently, with some benefitting more from its enhancing abilities and was no taken uniformly across a team

No one is suggesting that Pog is not a top cyclist . His natural abilities are brilliant

The issue for me is his 2024 improvement is not credible without aid and the difference between him and the others is a chasm that is hard to comprehend


P.S. I am not sure about Olympic testing but I was of the opinion that it was as advanced as you could get plus tries to be in line with emerging science. I imagine it is along way in front of the UCI

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Until now I've mostly steered free of participation in this thread.
This, as I prefer to stick to factual information over conspiracy theories.

I.e., apart from my post here just after RvV '22 and my observations of his, in my eyes, highly suspicious final passage of Oude Kwaremont, which I have tried on my own body several times in attack mode and sections where I know the riders struggle with it - just as except for Pogi who for each of these small sections seemed to fly flawlessly over them as if he had a cushion of air in his tyres, gaining 2-3 secs each time, just like a hovercraft.

But since Saturday the thoughts has been nagging even more violently in my head, hence finally I feel compelled to "unload" here.

My clear suspicion is some sort of motor doping, of which the UCI inspectors in an imperceptible way cannot catch during control checks.

Here my thoughts recent years in particular have hovered heavily around some kind of "a dynamic passive motor device" rather than a more simplistic static active motor with on/off switch.

After Lombardia and his chat with the motorcycle while in full attack, I don't think even the strongest biological syrup-plutonium diet can do it.

And can also be genetic doping. And then you don't need that many extra watts from a passive device to make the huge difference, everybody else being in fully red zone.

Or even worse:
An UAE-UCI collaboration à la Lance-Verbrüggen's "success collaboration".
Tacit acceptance with good dining from the UAE in your pocket and Gianetti being the wizard.
Toxic pot.

And although his competitors have been very diplomatic in interviews, in the way they balance their words it shows me that they are not satisfied with the situation.
For example I noticed Jorgenson's Strava upload the other day (I think it was after the Giro dell'Emilia) titled "Zone 2 "

Argh, trying to write myself out of it didn't get any better, the nagging here just got worse.

Thanks God, it's winter break now.

Nota bene:
Sorry if these thoughts have already been reversed here and you have come closer to a clearer picture.
I will read up later.

 

[meat puppet]

Regarding Pogacar's new training, interesting tidbit of a rider that is leaving and has the same trainer as Pogacar:

Sjoerd Bax verlaat Pogacar en UAE met dubbel gevoel: 'Soms het idee dat ik sterker was dan m’n ploeggenoten'

Sjoerd Bax heeft zich twee seizoenen uitstekend verm

www.indeleiderstrui.nl

Translation: I have the same trainer as Pogacar, but if I compare it to my trainer at Alpecin I haven't gotten any better. It's not complex math of course.

In short: He doesn't see a difference to his training at Alpecin-Deceuninck and it has not gotten him better compared to then. Obvious that there is no secret training sauce at UAE (as sport science is evolution, not revolution) which explains the huge step forwards.

Yup. This should have been the baseline expectation to anyone who has ridden themselves and/or know the basic principles of training. Especially at the pro levels of loading, the secret really is that there is no secret. A good coach will ensure the athletes absorb as much as they can without digging a hole. It's as much art as science for sure.

I know it is a lot to assume mou was not talking from their backside, but let's pretend he wasn't. Even so, the changes Pog allegedly made were (IMHO) a) entirely sensible and b) nowhere near something super special or c) not enough to explain the level up.

Long threshold intervals with time in zone progressing session by session, or 40/20sec on/off blocks for instance have been a staple for lowly humps like myself for about two decades. So not very exclusive or revolutionary.

When mvdp published his 2022 spring workouts on strava there was absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in it, save for the quantities and frequency of intensity. It's just that the pros can absorb insane amounts of load and improve at a jaw dropping rate.

Somehow Pog fans bought the revolution in training explanation, though. It became a commonplace on this forum too.

It's funny because at first the now bad mouthed San Millan zone 2 thing was already used to explain his performances. So the "new regime" already is the second super special one. The alleged changes were more fine tuning than a change of philosophy.

 

[peterfin]

P.S. I am not sure about Olympic testing but I was of the opinion that it was as advanced as you could get plus tries to be in line with emerging science. I imagine it is along way in front of the UCI

UAE doesn't like the Olympics. Except for Ayuso and Politt, none of the UAE TdF team was at the Olympics. Of the UAE riders featuring in the top25 performances of 2024 according to Watts2win (Pogacar, Yates, Almeida, Torres and Ulissi), none of them was at the Olympics.

 

[Salvarani]

UAE doesn't like the Olympics. Except for Ayuso and Politt, none of the UAE TdF team was at the Olympics. Of the UAE riders featuring in the top25 performances of 2024 according to Watts2win (Pogacar, Yates, Almeida, Torres and Ulissi), none of them was at the Olympics.

They dont select the riders for the Olympics.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

Yes but UAE riders can decline to go just as Pog did

 

[ontheroad]

Until now I've mostly steered free of participation in this thread.
This, as I prefer to stick to factual information and not conspiracy theories.

I.e., apart from my post after RvV '22 and my observations of his, in my eyes, highly suspicious final passage of Oude Kwaremont, which I have tried on my own body several times in attack mode and sections where I know the riders struggle with it - just as except for Pogi who for each of these small sections seemed to fly flawlessly over them as if he had a cushion of air in his tyres, gaining 2-3 secs each time.

But since Saturday the thoughts has been nagging violently in my head, hence finally I feel compelled to "unload" here.

My clear suspicion is some sort of motor doping, of which the UCI inspectors in an imperceptible way cannot catch during control checks.

Here my thoughts in particular have hovered about some kind of "a dynamic passive motor device" and not a static active motor.

After Lombardia and his chat with the motorcycle while in full attack, I don't even think the strongest biological syrup-plutonium diet can do it.

And can also be genetic doping. And then you don't need that many extra watts from a passive device to make the huge difference, everybody else being in fully red zone.

Or even worse:
An UAE-UCI collaboration à la Lance-Verbrüggen's "success collaboration".
Tacit acceptance with good dining from the UAE in your pocket and Gianetti as the wizard.
Toxic diet.

And although his competitors have been very diplomatic in interviews, it shows that they are not satisfied with the situation.
For example I noticed Jorgensen's Strava upload the other day (I think it was after the Giro dell'Emilia) titled "Zone 2 "

Argh, trying to write myself out of it didn't get any better.

Thanks God, it's winter break now.

Nota bene:
Sorry if these thoughts have already been reversed here and you have come closer to a clearer picture.
I will read up later.

I'd agree with all of that. If he was JUST simply doping his own body then they have found a magic potion capable of producing performances and watts never seen before.

But its that incessant ability to churn out huge power for kilometres on end whilst other top riders can only try to cling onto his wheel for a few hundred metres that make you question everything.

 

[E_F_]

So how could you avoid detection when motor doping?

• Change bikes before the finish
• Remove the motor from the bike after the finish
• Shield the motor from x-rays
• Make the motor look unsuspicious on x-ray photos
• "Conspiracy"

I don't think they do bike changes while Pogacar is cruising to victory (not sure, though).

The second one honestly seems like it could work - would explain Pogacar clinging on to his bike after Worlds.

I simply don't know enough about x-ray photography of bikes to say anything one way or another.

Conspiracies happen all the time, sports is no exception - far from it. The UCI, the UAE, the Mauro Gianetti... Doesn't seem like a stretch at all. Also perhaps the UCI have caught Pogacar and are furious, but they don't dare going public with it out of fear for their sport. And UAE are banking on that.

 

[Rackham]

Until now I've mostly steered free of participation in this thread.
This, as I prefer to stick to factual information and not conspiracy theories.

I.e., apart from my post after RvV '22 and my observations of his, in my eyes, highly suspicious final passage of Oude Kwaremont, which I have tried on my own body several times in attack mode and sections where I know the riders struggle with it - just as except for Pogi who for each of these small sections seemed to fly flawlessly over them as if he had a cushion of air in his tyres, gaining 2-3 secs each time.

But since Saturday the thoughts has been nagging violently in my head, hence finally I feel compelled to "unload" here.

My clear suspicion is some sort of motor doping, of which the UCI inspectors in an imperceptible way cannot catch during control checks.

Here my thoughts in particular have hovered about some kind of "a dynamic passive motor device" and not a static active motor.

After Lombardia and his chat with the motorcycle while in full attack, I don't think even the strongest biological syrup-plutonium diet can do it.

And can also be genetic doping. And then you don't need that many extra watts from a passive device to make the huge difference, everybody else being in fully red zone.

Or even worse:
An UAE-UCI collaboration à la Lance-Verbrüggen's "success collaboration".
Tacit acceptance with good dining from the UAE in your pocket and Gianetti as the wizard.
Toxic diet.

And although his competitors have been very diplomatic in interviews, it shows that they are not satisfied with the situation.
For example I noticed Jorgensen's Strava upload the other day (I think it was after the Giro dell'Emilia) titled "Zone 2 "

Argh, trying to write myself out of it didn't get any better.

Thanks God, it's winter break now.

Nota bene:
Sorry if these thoughts have already been reversed here and you have come closer to a clearer picture.
I will read up later.

I'd started to think motors seriously when I started seeing huge gaps being pulled on flat sections. Vinge did it in Combloux as well. Pog did it on Saturday in Lombardia. It's like these riders are flying.

 

[SorelyBoy]

It’s quite simple for me. Despite the extreme level and consistency of performances, the brutal nature of his attacks and the extended length of them, Pogacar doesn’t suffer on the bike. He has no pain cave to retreat to because he has no apparent need of one. He rides his bike like a man not subject to the laws of physics and biology, looking as fresh when he finishes as when he started, not collapsing across the line after another record breaking performance but gliding across it as if on a ride to the boulangerie to pickup a baguette. Able to converse immediately with everyone around him as if he was sitting on a chair in a cafe passing the time of day. This paradox, these indicators of compromise if you want, is stark evidence by themselves that whatever is going on here isn’t natural. Show us the proof shout his supporters. The evidence, ladies and gentlemen, is right before your eyes.

 

[Rob5091]

Conspiracies happen all the time, sports is no exception - far from it. The UCI, the UAE, the Mauro Gianetti... Doesn't seem like a stretch at all. Also perhaps the UCI have caught Pogacar and are furious, but they don't dare going public with it out of fear for their sport. And UAE are banking on that.

Why not UAE "influencing" WADA instead of UCI? UCI follow WADA's rules after all and there's a lot of secrecy with testing.

 

[E_F_]

Why not UAE "influencing" WADA instead of UCI? UCI follow WADA's rules after all and there's a lot of secrecy with testing.

Mainly because I was only talking about motors...

 

[Nick2413]

His riding on flats during solos has improved dramatically this year. He was never a top flat rider, TT or otherwise, but now is able to put minutes on everyone, even when they work together and don’t burn themselves trying to follow on the climb.

This is like watching an elite power lifter who has the best squat and deadlift but only a top 15 bench for years suddenly become the bench WR holder.

 

[peterfin]

I'd started to think motors seriously when I started seeing huge gaps being pulled on flat sections. Vinge did it in Combloux as well. Pog did it on Saturday in Lombardia. It's like these riders are flying.

The impact is bigger when climbing. This is because on the flats the dominant force is drag while on a mountain climb it's gravity. in math terms: power ~ velocity^3 on the flats while on a steep climb power ~ velocity. An example: a 400 watt effort + 40 watt coming from a motor results approximately in a 3% speed increase on the flat and a 10% on a steep climb.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Nah, I still don't believe you can hide a motor system generating significant boost. If true that would already have been tried in Formula 1 with far bigger budgets than even UAE (Formula 1 team budgets are restricted to $US 135mil). UAE's budget is €55 million to €60 million.

The F1 cost cap of $135 million does not include driver salaries, three highest-paid staff members salaries, travel expenses, marketing, bonuses and more. Even now, the big teams spend over $300 million a year. Max's or Hamilton's salary alone is bigger than the UAE's entire annual cycling budget. Next year at Ferrari, Hamilton will earn twice as much as the UAE's yearly budget. Even Adrian Newey will earn more than UAE's budget.

Cycling is such a low-cost sport compared to top-level sports, but somehow the 'clinic' regulars are convinced that this sport is the main driving force for undetectable small motors and batteries that can deliver significant performance (+ gene doping). Kids are watching too many dumb hollywood movies these days....

If we compare Pogacar 2023 to Pogacar 2024, he is 100% out of nowhere.

If we compare Froome 2011 early August to Froome 2011 late August, he is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% out of nowhere https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/christopher-froome/2011

His riding on flats during solos has improved dramatically this year. He was never a top flat rider, TT or otherwise, but now is able to put minutes on everyone, even when they work together and don’t burn themselves trying to follow on the climb.

This is like watching an elite power lifter who has the best squat and deadlift but only a top 15 bench for years suddenly become the bench WR holder.

He doesn't really beat others by minutes, his World Championship win was much less convincing than Remco or MvdP before him

 

[Notarobot]

The F1 cost cap of $135 million does not include driver salaries, three highest-paid staff members salaries, travel expenses, marketing, bonuses and more. Even now, the big teams spend over $300 million a year. Max's or Hamilton's salary alone is bigger than the UAE's entire annual cycling budget. Next year at Ferrari, Hamilton will earn twice as much as the UAE's yearly budget. Even Adrian Newey will earn more than UAE's budget.

Cycling is such a low-cost sport compared to top-level sports, but somehow the 'clinic' regulars are convinced that this sport is the main driving force for undetectable small motors and batteries that can deliver significant performance (+ gene doping). Kids are watching too many dumb hollywood movies these days....



If we compare Froome 2011 early August to Froome 2011 late August, he is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% out of nowhere https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/christopher-froome/2011



He doesn't really beat others by minutes, his World Championship win was much less convincing than Remco or MvdP before him

It was just freewheeling he did. As soon as they came within 40 seconds he decided to put in another 100w extra. With Remco, he was gone and nobody did anything after that. They just let him go.