Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

I low key want to start in a different direction;

Why does Pog wants to win all the races?
How much does he want to win all the races?
At what cost does he want it? To what length?

What kind of human would that need? We already know Gianetti. And we already know that those behind him are fully capable of creating land where none existed. If you start with the kind of hybris Dubai is built upon (I'm not talking politics really, but rather what kind of brain is needed for it so please don't derail this into politics!) What I am saying is that the creation of Dubai, Gianetti, Ricci and Pog means a similar kind of thoughtmind. A country that stopped at no length, Gianetti that stopped at no length and Pog...

I just find it a very consistent pattern . It reminds me of Robert Sapolsky forest troop baboon study where the most agressive baboons in the troop killed themselves off with tubercolosis from 1983-to 86, becasue they ate contaminated food. Since they were selfish they didn't leave anything for the weaker baboons. The weaker baboons survived and the whole troop changed behaviour.

So I tend to think "what baboon brain would it take to do this or that?" And then the rest is easier to put in context.

Why? Greed.

 

[Casual cyclist]

And yet we cannot confidently say what the riders are doing to achieve these ridiculous performances. I think we badly need a big name to be rumbled to help understand the 'how'.

As for Froome, his donkey to racehorse trajectory was as sickening as the Brailsford crap about how it was achieved. There was never clean cycling, but at least pre-EPO they had to open their mouths to breath. Maybe the Fishmonger has gills while the Coalminer heaps the black stuff in the furnace that powers his bike.

You have to give it to the sheikh's gang and Pogoclown. Their tireless efforts to entertain the great unwashed at least make it almost certain that whatever it is cannot be due entirely to biological means of forward propulsion. This leads -- given what we know about today's technology -- with only one possibility. Simple as that, and absolutely no need to speculate about what anyone of the participants could think and how many people needed to be bribed. If some technology has been perfected by now it has to be that of innocently looking bribing and the human psyche during the waning days of capitalism is as flexible as a thin rope.

 

[Unchained]

Your basically putting a lot of sports brands in a row, one after another in this long rant. Yet it still has got nothing to do with the dynamics of current pro cycling. UAE are the big dogs now, bringing the most money to UCI, it's really that simple. Period. No need to go for Colnago, Oakley etc. etc.

Edit. Some of the reply to Cookster got missing in the bytespace 🤷‍♂️

What money are you talking about? What sport are you watching, most races and race teams are hanging on by a thread..
Selling Colnago and Oakley is the cycling business model!! Associated sales is why brands get involved! Nobody is giving away hundreds of bikes, service corsa because they like people , instead to sell products!! Or get brand association!! Most big bike teams have budgets below @$60 million dollars.. So the entire organization is still cheaper than @5-8 good position player salaries in the NFL.

No matter how much I rant, which I do!! Nobody ever has a business model for the systematic cheating being put forth. So UAE is sending out a forward delegation to pay people off before the race, riders show up..
Or UAE is paying UCI to rig hundreds of races and doping controls with @$45 million, still paying Pogacar $6 million and the other salaries.. And the operating budget for events throughout the year also is deducted from the 45 million.. Where is all the lavish hush money coming from ?
Every year teams are in fragile situation for ongoing sponsorship.. There is very very little money for majority..
I do enjoy the idea of the UCI doing all the dirty work, in advance, absolutely with zero decent!! Nobody.. Not a person, or race with any resistance to cheating payoffs..
Sounds more crazy each time someone doesn't say it.
UCI and UAE going country to country, city to city on a Pogacar payoff caravan is funny even to think about what it would look like.. And what do they say to cycling insiders?? We have everything worked out since the Puerta, Armstrong era debacles!! Technology and information sharing are nowhere where they were when Lance got caught.. Nothing to worry about.. Trust us..

 

[Unchained]

Why is nobody going after Bernard Hilnaut for his defense of Pogacar..over and over? Why is Hinault not dismissed as he repeatedly warns that attacking Pogacar is seriously damaging bike racing..

 

[Casual cyclist]

Why is nobody going after Bernard Hilnaut for his defense of Pogacar..over and over? Why is Hinault not dismissed as he repeatedly warns that attacking Pogacar is seriously damaging bike racing..

Are you serious or just playing a role? The funny Badger still feeds from cycling and if you think he is going to in any way endanger his moderately posh current lifestyle by trying to swim against the current, you better think again.

 

[Froome]

This guy and his silly bosses plus the sheiks, are the biggest lie in the sports since Armstrong.

Armstrong was also untouchable until 2013 when he had to go to Oprah. Let's see what future brings to them.

"People champion", it makes me sick.

 

[Stablo]

What money are you talking about? What sport are you watching, most races and race teams are hanging on by a thread..
Selling Colnago and Oakley is the cycling business model!!

I really don't get your point, im watching pro cycling and yes many teams are having hard times financially, but not the UAE! Is it so hard to see or are you just trolling? They have billions to waste on soccer to get wins, so why not have another sport washing business with the new golden boy of cycling. And FYI information selling Colnago&Oakley get's a lot better with Poggie-Boy, cause the big masses are just enjoying the "WWE-show" that we more dedicated fans get annoyed by.

P.S. They don't send and they don't have to send some caravans of bribers around the racing calender to get some corruption scheme to work, that's just silly.

 

[Stablo]

This guy and his silly bosses plus the sheiks, are the biggest lie in the sports since Armstrong.

Armstrong was also untouchable until 2013 when he had to go to Opera. Let's see what future brings to them.

"People champion", it makes me sick.

This 100% true and makes me also sick to the bone. We have never had anything on the professional cycling era even remotely close to this. I would really like to watch LBL on Sunday, but then im just scared that it ruins my whole day again, when this clown put's his after burners on and vroom vroom. On Top of that people will be cheering The GOAT! like they are blind and! in some sort of psychosis.

 

[Gratemans]

Jonas have put Pogi in place, twice. And Mathieu several times.
How about them?

What about them? I know that post wasn't an answer to me but yeah, I have my doubts about them as well. In fact, me coming to the clinic here was instigated by that insane ITT VIngegaard did in the Tour. Then Pog did the same and I felt the same about both: f-- this.

 

[Blobs]

What money are you talking about? What sport are you watching, most races and race teams are hanging on by a thread..
Selling Colnago and Oakley is the cycling business model!! Associated sales is why brands get involved! Nobody is giving away hundreds of bikes, service corsa because they like people , instead to sell products!! Or get brand association!! Most big bike teams have budgets below @$60 million dollars.. So the entire organization is still cheaper than @5-8 good position player salaries in the NFL.

No matter how much I rant, which I do!! Nobody ever has a business model for the systematic cheating being put forth. So UAE is sending out a forward delegation to pay people off before the race, riders show up..
Or UAE is paying UCI to rig hundreds of races and doping controls with @$45 million, still paying Pogacar $6 million and the other salaries.. And the operating budget for events throughout the year also is deducted from the 45 million.. Where is all the lavish hush money coming from ?
Every year teams are in fragile situation for ongoing sponsorship.. There is very very little money for majority..
I do enjoy the idea of the UCI doing all the dirty work, in advance, absolutely with zero decent!! Nobody.. Not a person, or race with any resistance to cheating payoffs..
Sounds more crazy each time someone doesn't say it.
UCI and UAE going country to country, city to city on a Pogacar payoff caravan is funny even to think about what it would look like.. And what do they say to cycling insiders?? We have everything worked out since the Puerta, Armstrong era debacles!! Technology and information sharing are nowhere where they were when Lance got caught.. Nothing to worry about.. Trust us..

I don't think the money for doping, bribes and the like, are coming out of the cycling teams official budget.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Visma 2023 was something else. Now, their riders cannot handle the extra power and crashing all the time.

Laughable. Visma in 2023 was not "something else." Visma in 2023 simply does not compare to UAE in 2024 or 2025. UAE has 31 wins, and we haven't even reached May. Visma collected 69 in all of 2023. UAE is going to absolutely steamroll that number. They already did last year with 81 wins. Nothing in the modern history of this sport can compare to what UAE has been doing these years. Visma didn't even lead in UCI points in 2023, UAE did.

Let's just look at some index numbers to see how level the playing field has been over the past few seasons. Or, rather, how dominant UAE has been. Let's start in 2022, the last season where UAE did not top the team rankings.

Below is a visualisation of the 2022, 2023, and 2024 seasons. I've only included teams above index 50 to really highlight just how far ahead of the pack UAE really is.

As you can see, three seasons ago, the ninth-best-ranked team was closer to the best team than the second-best team was to UAE last season. UAE is dominating to such an extent that it's hardly even a competition at this point. And it's not just Pogi. Last season, UAE had almost one-fourth of the top-25 riders in the world rankings. If you combine Visma and Lidl-Trek's riders in the top-25, you'll have the same number of riders as UAE achieved.

So don't pretend that Visma two years ago can in any way, shape, or form be compared to UAE last season. Nothing can. UAE in 2024 was in its own stratosphere, head and absolute shoulders above everyone else, which was not the case for Visma in 2023.

If you want an idea of just how much UAE has distanced everyone else in the past few years, you can look at it this way: Three years ago, Cofidis was closer to UAE in the world rankings than Visma was to UAE last season. That's right: Visma was to UAE last season, what Cofidis was to UAE three years ago. That's ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Laughable. Visma in 2023 was not "something else." Visma in 2023 simply does not compare to UAE in 2024 or 2025. UAE has 31 wins, and we haven't even reached May. Visma collected 69 in all of 2023. UAE is going to absolutely steamroll that number. They already did last year with 81 wins. Nothing in the modern history of this sport can compare to what UAE has been doing these years. Visma didn't even lead in UCI points in 2023, UAE did.

Let's just look at some index numbers to see how level the playing field has been over the past few seasons. Or, rather, how dominant UAE has been. Let's start in 2022, the last season where UAE did not top the team rankings.

Below is a visualisation of the 2022, 2023, and 2024 seasons. I've only included teams above index 50 to really highlight just how far ahead of the pack UAE really is.

As you can see, three seasons ago, the ninth-best-ranked team was closer to the best team than the second-best team was to UAE last season. UAE is dominating to such an extent that it's hardly even a competition at this point. And it's not just Pogi. Last season, UAE had almost one-fourth of the top-25 riders in the world rankings. If you combine Visma and Lidl-Trek's riders in the top-25, you'll have the same number of riders as UAE achieved.

So don't pretend that Visma two years ago can in any way, shape, or form be compared to UAE last season. Nothing can. UAE in 2024 was in its own stratosphere, head and absolute shoulders above everyone else, which was not the case for Visma in 2023.

If you want an idea of just how much UAE has distanced everyone else in the past few years, you can look at it this way: Three years ago, Cofidis was closer to UAE in the world rankings than Visma was to UAE last season. That's right: Visma was to UAE last season, what Cofidis was to UAE three years ago. That's ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

Likening Pogoclown to Froome and the current UAE to Jumbo of a few years ago is one of apologists' "subtle" moves. Thanks for such a clear exposition of it.

 

[AmRacer]

Laughable. Visma in 2023 was not "something else." Visma in 2023 simply does not compare to UAE in 2024 or 2025. UAE has 31 wins, and we haven't even reached May. Visma collected 69 in all of 2023. UAE is going to absolutely steamroll that number. They already did last year with 81 wins. Nothing in the modern history of this sport can compare to what UAE has been doing these years. Visma didn't even lead in UCI points in 2023, UAE did.

Let's just look at some index numbers to see how level the playing field has been over the past few seasons. Or, rather, how dominant UAE has been. Let's start in 2022, the last season where UAE did not top the team rankings.

Below is a visualisation of the 2022, 2023, and 2024 seasons. I've only included teams above index 50 to really highlight just how far ahead of the pack UAE really is.

As you can see, three seasons ago, the ninth-best-ranked team was closer to the best team than the second-best team was to UAE last season. UAE is dominating to such an extent that it's hardly even a competition at this point. And it's not just Pogi. Last season, UAE had almost one-fourth of the top-25 riders in the world rankings. If you combine Visma and Lidl-Trek's riders in the top-25, you'll have the same number of riders as UAE achieved.

So don't pretend that Visma two years ago can in any way, shape, or form be compared to UAE last season. Nothing can. UAE in 2024 was in its own stratosphere, head and absolute shoulders above everyone else, which was not the case for Visma in 2023.

If you want an idea of just how much UAE has distanced everyone else in the past few years, you can look at it this way: Three years ago, Cofidis was closer to UAE in the world rankings than Visma was to UAE last season. That's right: Visma was to UAE last season, what Cofidis was to UAE three years ago. That's ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

Winning all three GT's with different riders is something else, apologists think it's normal stuff.
Wolfpack won more races than UAE does now, for many many years, apologists and those who trust alternative facts think it's normal stuff.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Winning all three GT's with different riders is something else, apologists think it's normal stuff.
Wolfpack won more races than UAE does now, for many many years, apologists and those who trust alternative facts think it's normal stuff.

It's beyond pathetic that you talk about "alternative facts," in the very same sentence as you are saying that Quick Step won "more" than UAE "for many, many years." Tell me one year when Lefevere's Wolfpack won more than 81 victories. I'll wait.

Actually, scratch that. I won't wait. I'll tell you right now that they never won more than 81 victories. They peaked in 2018 with 73 wins in 201 racedays. Last year, UAE got 81 wins in 200 racedays. That included two Grand Tours, two monuments, and one of their riders winning the World Championships, which isn't even included in the 81 victories, so we might as well call it 82 in 201 racedays. For reference, Quick Step won zero Grand Tours, the same number of monuments, and didn't have a rider win the World Championships in completely, utterly dominating fashion.

So to sum up, Quick Step were about as competitive in the monuments as UAE, but nowhere even remotely close to UAE in the Grand Tours. As a logical result, Sky and Bora, the former of whom had a great season in the Grand Tours, the latter having Sagan score points left and right, reached indices of 76 and 69, respectively, compared to Quick Step. To put it in simpler terms, they were nowhere near as dominant as UAE were last season. Not even close.

None of this can be categorized as alternative facts. These are just, well, facts. They are not up for discussion. It's not a discussion whether or not UAE achieved unseen domination in terms of UCI points last season. It's not up for discussion that they won more than Quick Step ever has in a single season. It's also not up for discussion that Pogi had an unmatched season in terms of UCI points and World Tour wins.

You're bringing Trump-levels of logic to this discussion when you start talking about alternative facts while passing off untruthful numbers as facts. Be better.

 

[SorelyBoy]

It's beyond pathetic that you talk about "alternative facts," in the very same sentence as you are saying that Quick Step won "more" than UAE "for many, many years." Tell me one year when Lefevere's Wolfpack won more than 81 victories. I'll wait.

Actually, scratch that. I won't wait. I'll tell you right now that they never won more than 81 victories. They peaked in 2018 with 73 wins in 201 racedays. Last year, UAE got 81 wins in 200 racedays. That included two Grand Tours, two monuments, and one of their riders winning the World Championships, which isn't even included in the 81 victories, so we might as well call it 82 in 201 racedays. For reference, Quick Step won zero Grand Tours, the same number of monuments, and didn't have a rider win the World Championships in completely, utterly dominating fashion.

So to sum up, Quick Step were about as competitive in the monuments as UAE, but nowhere even remotely close to UAE in the Grand Tours. As a logical result, Sky and Bora, the former of whom had a great season in the Grand Tours, the latter having Sagan score points left and right, reached indices of 76 and 69, respectively, compared to Quick Step. To put it in simpler terms, they were nowhere near as dominant as UAE were last season. Not even close.

None of this can be categorized as alternative facts. These are just, well, facts. They are not up for discussion. It's not a discussion whether or not UAE achieved unseen domination in terms of UCI points last season. It's not up for discussion that they won more than Quick Step ever has in a single season. It's also not up for discussion that Pogi had an unmatched season in terms of UCI points and World Tour wins.

You're bringing Trump-levels of logic to this discussion when you start talking about alternative facts while passing off untruthful numbers as facts. Be better.

And it’s not up for discussion that UAE are managed by Mauro Gianetti. Who’s track record suggests that he’s not the messiah but rather something else entirely.

 

[Panda Claws]

What's the consensus on the idea that at the very top and bottom outliers are more exaggerated, and how it could help explain monsters like Pogacar? Essentially gaps at the top are relatively small as the pack will be filled with people that are 4+ SD beyond the mean but every now and then someone will pop up that's another SD beyond that. This is so rare that there aren't necessarily many between him and the rest of the pack. The gap between that generational talent and others is likely to far exceed the gap between the 2nd and 3rd best etc.
Other times there will be no generational talent at all or only a minor one.

Easiest example would be height or IQ scores. I generated 1.000.000 people at avg. 100 with SD of 15, five times.
This is the resulting top-10
1. 179
2. 176
3. 171
4. 170
5. 170
6. 170
7. 170
8. 170
9. 169
10. 169

I'm sure this has been debated to death on this subforum but shouldn't we to some degree at least that generational talents are just that much better than the rest of the field? Does this effect not occur in professional cycling because of something I missed?

 

[Red Rick]

Laughable. Visma in 2023 was not "something else." Visma in 2023 simply does not compare to UAE in 2024 or 2025. UAE has 31 wins, and we haven't even reached May. Visma collected 69 in all of 2023. UAE is going to absolutely steamroll that number. They already did last year with 81 wins. Nothing in the modern history of this sport can compare to what UAE has been doing these years. Visma didn't even lead in UCI points in 2023, UAE did.

Let's just look at some index numbers to see how level the playing field has been over the past few seasons. Or, rather, how dominant UAE has been. Let's start in 2022, the last season where UAE did not top the team rankings.

Below is a visualisation of the 2022, 2023, and 2024 seasons. I've only included teams above index 50 to really highlight just how far ahead of the pack UAE really is.

As you can see, three seasons ago, the ninth-best-ranked team was closer to the best team than the second-best team was to UAE last season. UAE is dominating to such an extent that it's hardly even a competition at this point. And it's not just Pogi. Last season, UAE had almost one-fourth of the top-25 riders in the world rankings. If you combine Visma and Lidl-Trek's riders in the top-25, you'll have the same number of riders as UAE achieved.

So don't pretend that Visma two years ago can in any way, shape, or form be compared to UAE last season. Nothing can. UAE in 2024 was in its own stratosphere, head and absolute shoulders above everyone else, which was not the case for Visma in 2023.

If you want an idea of just how much UAE has distanced everyone else in the past few years, you can look at it this way: Three years ago, Cofidis was closer to UAE in the world rankings than Visma was to UAE last season. That's right: Visma was to UAE last season, what Cofidis was to UAE three years ago. That's ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

Yes but what about cOmBlOuX

 

[Red Rick]

What's the consensus on the idea that at the very top and bottom outliers are more exaggerated, and how it could help explain monsters like Pogacar? Essentially gaps at the top are relatively small as the pack will be filled with people that are 4+ SD beyond the mean but every now and then someone will pop up that's another SD beyond that. This is so rare that there aren't necessarily many between him and the rest of the pack. The gap between that generational talent and others is likely to far exceed the gap between the 2nd and 3rd best etc.
Other times there will be no generational talent at all or only a minor one.

Easiest example would be height or IQ scores. I generated 1.000.000 people at avg. 100 with SD of 15, five times.
This is the resulting top-10
1. 179
2. 176
3. 171
4. 170
5. 170
6. 170
7. 170
8. 170
9. 169
10. 169

I'm sure this has been debated to death on this subforum but shouldn't we to some degree at least that generational talents are just that much better than the rest of the field? Does this effect not occur in professional cycling because of something I missed?

This ignores the last 35+ years of cycling history, where Armstrong never tested positive, Indurain started flying as EPO kicked in and still has his TdF victories, and where the word "unbelievable" should always be seen in the negative sense.

If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, and tasts like turd, you don't just close your eyes and yell "GENERATIONAL TALENT". Because if anything, his junior results show otherwise.

 

[Casual cyclist]

What's the consensus on the idea that at the very top and bottom outliers are more exaggerated, and how it could help explain monsters like Pogacar? Essentially gaps at the top are relatively small as the pack will be filled with people that are 4+ SD beyond the mean but every now and then someone will pop up that's another SD beyond that. This is so rare that there aren't necessarily many between him and the rest of the pack. The gap between that generational talent and others is likely to far exceed the gap between the 2nd and 3rd best etc.
Other times there will be no generational talent at all or only a minor one.

Easiest example would be height or IQ scores. I generated 1.000.000 people at avg. 100 with SD of 15, five times.
This is the resulting top-10
1. 179
2. 176
3. 171
4. 170
5. 170
6. 170
7. 170
8. 170
9. 169
10. 169

I'm sure this has been debated to death on this subforum but shouldn't we to some degree at least that generational talents are just that much better than the rest of the field? Does this effect not occur in professional cycling because of something I missed?

That's what the system wants us to believe. The overall slogan is "What a time to be alive" (in spite of all evidence to the contrary in the form of problems mounting everywhere) and -- closely related -- "We are witnessing history" and all similar BS. All the nonsense talk about the imminent breakthroughs, like "revisit" of the Moon (with a possible orbital station and/or base involved), or a future mission to Mars is also a piece of the same general narrative.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Laughable. Visma in 2023 was not "something else." Visma in 2023 simply does not compare to UAE in 2024 or 2025. UAE has 31 wins, and we haven't even reached May. Visma collected 69 in all of 2023. UAE is going to absolutely steamroll that number. They already did last year with 81 wins. Nothing in the modern history of this sport can compare to what UAE has been doing these years. Visma didn't even lead in UCI points in 2023, UAE did.

Let's just look at some index numbers to see how level the playing field has been over the past few seasons. Or, rather, how dominant UAE has been. Let's start in 2022, the last season where UAE did not top the team rankings.

Below is a visualisation of the 2022, 2023, and 2024 seasons. I've only included teams above index 50 to really highlight just how far ahead of the pack UAE really is.

As you can see, three seasons ago, the ninth-best-ranked team was closer to the best team than the second-best team was to UAE last season. UAE is dominating to such an extent that it's hardly even a competition at this point. And it's not just Pogi. Last season, UAE had almost one-fourth of the top-25 riders in the world rankings. If you combine Visma and Lidl-Trek's riders in the top-25, you'll have the same number of riders as UAE achieved.

So don't pretend that Visma two years ago can in any way, shape, or form be compared to UAE last season. Nothing can. UAE in 2024 was in its own stratosphere, head and absolute shoulders above everyone else, which was not the case for Visma in 2023.

If you want an idea of just how much UAE has distanced everyone else in the past few years, you can look at it this way: Three years ago, Cofidis was closer to UAE in the world rankings than Visma was to UAE last season. That's right: Visma was to UAE last season, what Cofidis was to UAE three years ago. That's ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

Yes, UAE is at least similarly or more over the top compared to 2023 Visma, but their plus in wins doesn‘t come from being more dominant, it comes from Visma being among the teams with the least races and UAE racing races like the Vuelta Asturias or the Giro d‘Abbruzzo. If Visma had raced a UAE schedule in 2023, they might just have broken 80 wins as well. 2023 Visma also just was more ridiculous because they did it with a lesser budget. UAE‘s team is out of this world, but that‘s in part because they‘ve just bought some of the best talents in the sport. Of course UAE is off the charts at the moment, but when you compare it to expectations, they‘re not that much more off the charts than 2023 Visma. Who knows, maybe they have more of a leg up in doping than Visma did at the lower 2023 level but I think it‘s a close call and that money plays a significant role.

 

[cnort]

Ignoring the UAE Tour, Pogacar started his spring campaign with a win at Strade Bianche on 8 March. If he podiums at Liege, that would be seven classics podiums over seven weeks (March 8/22, April 6/13/20/23/27). That's an awful long time to hold a peak over varied parcours and opposition with very specific peaks. Has anyone else come close to that in the post-Merckx era? Did Merckx himself even do that?

My crude and naive understanding is that clinic methods help you achieve a higher peak, but not extend it by a lot. Even in the EPO and beyond era, I thought a three week peak was still hard to do. Maybe I am missing something. Or is it that even off-peak he wins, so there may have been a lull in the seven weeks that was not evident to mortals?