Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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The main difference between now from the Armstrong era is that Armstrong basically got the sympathy vote for a fair while because, let’s face it, his story of him overcoming adversity was compelling. And it was mainly true in terms of his illness etc. So he seemed above criticism, above suspicion. Why, he asked, would someone who had gone through a huge life threatening experience with cancer pollute his body with chemicals? It didn’t make sense. Plus his surgeries had made him lighter than before, apparently explaining his much better climbing abilities. Combined, it was enough to sell the story of Lance, not so much a man but a legend in his own time. Everyone wanted to believe in such an amazing and uplifting story. He was much more famous than Pogacar is now, it’s not even close. He probably still is. Pogacar doesn’t have the same aura because he hasn’t had to overcome the same type of adversity. His story isn’t nearly as compelling.
But of course the French media eventually got annoyed with an American dominating their big race. So they started to have another look at Armstrong and his story. At the time, they couldn’t quite make their case stick other than throw very slanted headlines at him. It would be for others such as Walsh to get wider public attention focused on Armstrong. Even then, the public and cycling ecosphere were not keen and had no appetite for the tittle tattle. Like today, the cycling press and the UCI were afraid of the consequences of their poster boy being busted. And the public didn’t like the idea of a cancer survivor being scapegoated or targeted fairly or unfairly. Armstrong therefore escaped pretty much unscathed bar the odd lawsuit until after he had retired for the second time.
The lessons for today would be that Pogacar has the protection not from being a legend, but of a petrostate. And now we have a supine press and media landscape that has even less appetite to investigate the miraculous events that Pogacar and UAE are serving up for our delectation and delight. They don’t want to delve too deeply because, as during Armstrong’s era, they all sup from the bowl Pogacar serves up. And another damaging scandal could wipe out the sport from a commercial point of view. Could hurt media careers. But humans don’t change their nature. While they can be intimidated or bought off, they can also be unpredictable and can get irritated and jealous. Some might also be upstanding and righteous. If UAE and Pogacar are at it, they’ll be running a huge operation to keep a lid on anyone potentially going rogue and blabbing. They possibly feel untouchable, but that may prove to be their undoing.
 
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hmm. armstrong benefitted hugely from an american fan base and press who knew absolutely nothing about dr. ferrari.

it became a bit of a cult (similar to what we are seeing now on another front). one experienced it constantly on various cycling discussion boards.

and then Paul Sherwin and Phil Liggett fawned over him for years when they knew full well what was going on, but they also knew where their bread was buttered.
 
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I don't see any issues with his cadence. It's nowhere near Froome's strange seated attacks.
agreed. not to the extent of Froome or Armstrong.

but there was just an article about his increased spinning (cyclinguptodate?) where the "expert" was suggesting all kinds of justifications for it (smaller cranks and other stuff). it was very reminiscent of the justifications for both Armstrong and Froome. however, a slower but normal cadence when climbing is actually natural and what the body can sustain, and is likely most efficient because of it, while any spinning is the opposite.
 
hmm. armstrong benefitted hugely from an american fan base and press who knew absolutely nothing about dr. ferrari.

it became a bit of a cult (similar to what we are seeing now on another front). one experienced it constantly on various cycling discussion boards.

and then Paul Sherwin and Phil Liggett fawned over him for years when they knew full well what was going on, but they also knew where their bread was buttered.
Liggett defended LA as being clean up to the point he confessed on Oprah. Lol.Then he acted dumbfounded that he was fooled into believing he was clean.

I remember some of the crazy reasons Liggett postulated that LA was clean. Things like he was genetically gifted, his weight loss that transformed him into a world class climber & GC contender, his advanced training & nutrition - and being a cancer survivor - he would never dabble with using PEDs, and so forth. Furthermore, I recall Liggett explaining that in all interviews he did with LA, he just had a "feeling" that he wasn't a doper. Lol. I thought, FFS, this guy has been covering cycling for decades & he believes LA's BS.

I would imagine Ligget feels the same way about Pogacar; genetics, more advanced training & nutritional principles, this new generation of cyclists would never consider using PEDs, and so on.
 
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The early 2000s TDF videos are borderline impossible to watch with Phil and Paul constantly droning on about Lance having 'worked on his cadence' and having the edge on his opponents because he keeps fit doing cyclocross in the winter months.

It's why I can't bring myself to hate on Carlton, he always picks the most random ass riders to hype up rather than the big favourite. Reichenbach. Si Clarke. Rigoberto Uran. Aredondo.
 
The main difference between now from the Armstrong era is that Armstrong basically got the sympathy vote for a fair while because, let’s face it, his story of him overcoming adversity was compelling. And it was mainly true in terms of his illness etc. So he seemed above criticism, above suspicion. Why, he asked, would someone who had gone through a huge life threatening experience with cancer pollute his body with chemicals? It didn’t make sense. Plus his surgeries had made him lighter than before, apparently explaining his much better climbing abilities. Combined, it was enough to sell the story of Lance, not so much a man but a legend in his own time. Everyone wanted to believe in such an amazing and uplifting story. He was much more famous than Pogacar is now, it’s not even close. He probably still is. Pogacar doesn’t have the same aura because he hasn’t had to overcome the same type of adversity. His story isn’t nearly as compelling.
But of course the French media eventually got annoyed with an American dominating their big race. So they started to have another look at Armstrong and his story. At the time, they couldn’t quite make their case stick other than throw very slanted headlines at him. It would be for others such as Walsh to get wider public attention focused on Armstrong. Even then, the public and cycling ecosphere were not keen and had no appetite for the tittle tattle. Like today, the cycling press and the UCI were afraid of the consequences of their poster boy being busted. And the public didn’t like the idea of a cancer survivor being scapegoated or targeted fairly or unfairly. Armstrong therefore escaped pretty much unscathed bar the odd lawsuit until after he had retired for the second time.
The lessons for today would be that Pogacar has the protection not from being a legend, but of a petrostate. And now we have a supine press and media landscape that has even less appetite to investigate the miraculous events that Pogacar and UAE are serving up for our delectation and delight. They don’t want to delve too deeply because, as during Armstrong’s era, they all sup from the bowl Pogacar serves up. And another damaging scandal could wipe out the sport from a commercial point of view. Could hurt media careers. But humans don’t change their nature. While they can be intimidated or bought off, they can also be unpredictable and can get irritated and jealous. Some might also be upstanding and righteous. If UAE and Pogacar are at it, they’ll be running a huge operation to keep a lid on anyone potentially going rogue and blabbing. They possibly feel untouchable, but that may prove to be their undoing.
You cover alot of ground with this dialogue, some a fair reconstruction of history and some pure conjecture.
Armstrong was considered a poster boy of human triumph over demon cancer. The fact that he took huge amounts of anabolic supplements to be "good" prior to getting testicular cancer should not be overlooked. His willingness to go to that same Dark Well to regain glory is the story few can accept. How many NFL stars disclosed, as they succumbed to difficult illnesses and death that they took that edge to succeed?
Armstrong exploited that resurrection myth to a degree that hasn't been equaled. You're correct; the press loves Feel Good and sold it. They were hard pressed to look like the pap suppliers they were when truth came to light.
Most here should have hardened edges by now and the more cynical of forum users (me included) wait until years after a career ends and the clinical testing upgrades confirm what was legit and what was not to celebrate any pro athlete's historic impact.
That should hold true for today's heroes if we want to be honest with ourselves, Yes? In the meantime; villainizing a rider we find heinous over a homeboy favorite is how these discussions end up in the Conspiracy Basement. Sooner or later Grandma's not going to send down cookies and it's necessary to climb out.
 
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Nah, he started getting questions immediately, literally the day after Sestrieres. Pointed questions about doping and whether he was clean. Had a press conference eventually to address all the talk.

The press and the sport have basically accepted that no one is going to bust the top guys. Just not good for business. Cycling was the only sport "shooting itself in the foot" in this way.
That may have been the case in parts of Europe but certainly not globally. Yes we all heard the complaints of the French in particular in 1999. But Lance’s story never really fell apart until after he had ‘won’ his 7th Tour. By the time of the Oprah interview he was most certainly accepted by the press as busted.
I recon that’s about 0.25 watts of momentum - until bearing friction stops the spinning.
 
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That may have been the case in parts of Europe but certainly not globally. Yes we all heard the complaints of the French in particular in 1999. But Lance’s story never really fell apart until after he had ‘won’ his 7th Tour. By the time of the Oprah interview he was most certainly accepted by the press as busted.

I recon that’s about 0.25 watts of momentum - until bearing friction stops the spinning.
I’m responding to…
LA was certainly not "absolutely hammered by the press from day one". That happened later. Armstrong's story unraveled with his comeback. The Opera interview wasn't until 2013.
He certainly was hammered in the press from day one. Of course his story didn’t unravel (for a great many people) for many, many years.

Those are two very different things.

Some of us saw what was going on immediately, and got attacked online for pointing it out, over and over again. As did many in the press who saw the obvious. The press today by comparison is even more meek and complicit then they were in ‘99.
 
I’m responding to…

He certainly was hammered in the press from day one. Of course his story didn’t unravel (for a great many people) for many, many years.

Those are two very different things.

Some of us saw what was going on immediately, and got attacked online for pointing it out, over and over again. As did many in the press who saw the obvious. The press today by comparison is even more meek and complicit than they were in ‘99.
He was hammered by the press in Europe from day 1. Not elsewhere. Certainly not in Australia and our press usually follows the lead of Reuters, American and British press.
 
He was hammered by the press in Europe from day 1. Not elsewhere. Certainly not in Australia and our press usually follows the lead of Reuters, American and British press.
Certainly I’ll take your word on it. But Europe was where the race was, and where most of the press who cover it were at the time. It was a fairly different media landscape back then, much less global. Social media didn’t exist. I’ll maintain that he got hammered where it mattered, so much so that he had a testy press conference to address it, and mainly because the corticosteroid story got out, with cover from the UCI already in play.

Certainly the race promoters who had decided to sell the 99 Tour as the “The Tour of Rebirth” (Phil Liggett) had zero interest in asking questions. But actual journalists had plenty.
 
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View: https://x.com/looflol/status/1936851532793979159


Why is Großschartner pressing his finger on his top tube? Does Colnago have something there?
ENVE gets good marketing content:D Their wheels spin fast as ***
It would be helpful to see what happens immediately before this clip. He has the back wheel off the ground, presumably for a reason. Does he spin the wheel? I don't know, because this is very selectively edited. If UAE are using motors, I would find it odd that they're using them for every rider in every race and the riders are apparently so careless that they're constantly accidentally activating the motor or forgetting to turn it off.
 
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It would be helpful to see what happens immediately before this clip. He has the back wheel off the ground, presumably for a reason. Does he spin the wheel? I don't know, because this is very selectively edited. If UAE are using motors, I would find it odd that they're using them for every rider in every race and the riders are apparently so careless that they're constantly accidentally activating the motor or forgetting to turn it off.
Yes that would be very helpful. I couldn´t find a longer version but i find it very strange. He doesn´t hit the pedals in this little sequence and the wheel is turning so fast. Would be good to know if he hit the pedals before or why are his pedals moving?

And what is he doing with his fingers on the toptube? It looks like he is pressing something but i can´t explain what. Or am I the only one who finds his finger movement strange? :D

Ready for the clinic :D
 
Yes that would be very helpful. I couldn´t find a longer version but i find it very strange. He doesn´t hit the pedals in this little sequence and the wheel is turning so fast. Would be good to know if he hit the pedals before or why are his pedals moving?

And what is he doing with his fingers on the toptube? It looks like he is pressing something but i can´t explain what. Or am I the only one who finds his finger movement strange? :D

Ready for the clinic :D
He pushed the right brake and then the wheel immediately stopped. This is normal with disk brakes, right?
 
View: https://x.com/looflol/status/1936851532793979159


Why is Großschartner pressing his finger on his top tube? Does Colnago have something there?
ENVE gets good marketing content:D Their wheels spin fast as ***
What? He spins the wheel with his hand and then pushes the brake...

Maybe motors are a thing, maybe not - but those clips are a bit ridiculous and I am a person that is absolutely sure doping is still rampant.
 
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He pushed the right brake and then the wheel immediately stopped. This is normal with disk brakes, right?
Sure thats right but we have to see what happens before that. He probably pedals once, which is why the wheel turns. Without context, it looks as if the wheel is turning on its own. And his hand movement looks a bit strange. For me it looks like he is pressing something but probably he was just holding his bike like that.

What? He spins the wheel with his hand and then pushes the brake...

Maybe motors are a thing, maybe not - but those clips are a bit ridiculous and I am a person that is absolutely sure doping is still rampant.
You found a longer version of this clip? In this clip i don´t see him spinning the wheel with his hand what makes this thing look kind of odd. Apparently this clip was specially edited to look like there is a motor inside the bike.

But you are right, those clips are a bit ridiculous without context. Especially if we don´t see what happened before.

Anyway, I am surprised how fast and long these Enve wheels turn :D
 
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Sure thats right but we have to see what happens before that. He probably pedals once, which is why the wheel turns. Without context, it looks as if the wheel is turning on its own. And his hand movement looks a bit strange. For me it looks like he is pressing something but probably he was just holding his bike like that.


You found a longer version of this clip? In this clip i don´t see him spinning the wheel with his hand what makes this thing look kind of odd. Apparently this clip was specially edited to look like there is a motor inside the bike.

But you are right, those clips are a bit ridiculous without context. Especially if we don´t see what happened before.

Anyway, I am surprised how fast and long these Enve wheels turn :D
Hard to know without seeing the full clip. But the rider is totally upright and his two feet are firmly planted. If he's turned the pedals it must have been with his foot a few seconds before. But that wheel is going at a crazy rate for someone just testing the general chain and breaks. He must have given the pedal a fair old shove!
The noise around this type of thing is getting a little louder and is only going to increase as people get tired with UAE and Pogacar. People will get bored with watching races which offer little drama. Especially if they last the entire season with little respite. More than that, they will get resentful. The whole 'GOAT' thing will soon wear off. Sponsors will get fed up which will in turn trigger a chain reaction of events all the way to UCI and the media. Other teams and riders will get plain hacked off and increasingly bitter. If UAE are 'at it' and they're smart, they'll back off for a bit once in a while and take the opportunity to allow others to win a few races and even the odd GC. However, beyond being smarmy nice with the other riders and smiling for the cameras every time he crosses the line first (look guys, I'm not even sweating!) Pogacar doesn't seem to be politically astute enough not to want to win every stage and classic race he can and Gianetti is, well, Gianetti. While of course, without getting into stereotypes, Arab petrostates aren't particularly well known for their sense of fair play.
 
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View: https://x.com/looflol/status/1936851532793979159


Why is Großschartner pressing his finger on his top tube? Does Colnago have something there?
ENVE gets good marketing content:D Their wheels spin fast as ***
This is pure clickbait. Just checked yesterday's stage replay: he lifts the bike by holding it by the top tube and spins the pedals several times with the other hand. He then places that hand on the saddle.