Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Unchained]

Good post but not sure about this part? Armstrong’s confession hurt cycling for a few years but it’s back bigger and “better” than ever - look at the commercialization of the sport, that can overcome bad press and Armstrong's case proves that.

Plus, in choosing not to address the problem of Gianetti the UCI would be opening itself up to much bigger trouble in the future. Especially if they are choosing to look the other way with an Eastern European when there are rival riders, teams and their sponsors losing potentially many millions of USD or EUR with Pog's dominance.

The idea that current cycling, exposure, participation and money involved are greater than Armstrong era is a stretch.. There was a dark running joke that Pogacar getting paid between @6.5-8 million Euros per year, still have Armstrong, then and now still highest paid cyclist.
I went to the DDR in some bizarre pursuit of some of my earliest heros..Olaf Ludwig being one. Went to a very humble velodrome and training facility, so I was a little let down about legendary DDR state sponsored sports.. Training facilities in Belgium, West Germany and Luxembourg much more impressive.
As far as the Giannetti" problem " it doesn't exist. Most of the premise people type in is completely crazy and counterintuitive. Don't know if the saying crosses cultures but " if it ain't broke don't fix it " looks to be philosophy UCI and upper echelons of cycling look to be following. Past is the past, and if anyone was punished for something, years ago, it's over and done.

 

[YellowSocks]

acting like Pog is super normal now is a bit 'too much' as the French say

I guess you're French? Did you have a look at this interview?

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YA8IbgziL8o


(I am not saying a non French speaker shouldn't watch it but I doubt the efficiency of automatic subtiles regarding Bardet's prononciation.)

 

[Unchained]

It hurt forever when we are talking about doping. The first sport people think when they talk about doping is cycling. It's automatic. General People associate cycling with doping without knowing sports like swimming, track & field, biathlon, etc are full of dopers, maybe even more than cycling since no other sport has more controls and tests than cycling

It's sort of amazing that doping and cheating have been around for hundreds of years.. And the idea that doping was born with Armstrong is completely historically wrong and inaccurate. And testing and controls are relative.
Some debate about when bicycle was officially invented but would say doping and cheating started a few months after. And cool cycling era was when racers thought drinking alcohol was a PED, in some circles that tradition continues.. Cheating and doping in bike racing was rampant long, long before Armstrong was born.

 

[E_F_]

Except moving straight to Eurosports commentary team, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I also think that the didn't know how to train- explanation makes the marginal gaines thing seem very beliavable. Pog had spended five seasons in the biggest team of cycling, under Gianetti&Matxin, but didn't know how to train for sure.

Bardet has implied what he really thinks.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Except moving straight to Eurosports commentary team, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I also think that the didn't know how to train- explanation makes the marginal gaines thing seem very beliavable. Pog had spended five seasons in the biggest team of cycling, under Gianetti&Matxin, but didn't know how to train for sure.

UAE is the PSG of cycling. PSG had the most money for more than a decade and didn't win 1 Champions league until this year. Funny enough for both PSG and UAE the key has been the same : trainer (Sola for UAE and Luis Enrique for PSG).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

UAE is the PSG of cycling. PSG had the most money for more than a decade and didn't win 1 Champions league until this year. Funny enough for both PSG and UAE the key has been the same : trainer (Sola for UAE and Luis Enrique for PSG).

A long time ago UAE won the Champions League twice with its golden boy Pogi, years before Sola.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Sola is just smoke and mirrors to deflect from just upping the amount of rocket fuel (2024 TdS with Adam Yates and Almeida was the test run in a race). Sure, some of the training changed might result in small marginal gains for Pogacar, but that amount of improving just means way more or new rocket fuel. The fact that the Emirates have the UCI in their pockets surely helps.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sola is just smoke and mirrors to deflect from just upping the amount of rocket fuel (2024 TdS with Adam Yates and Almeida was the test run in a race). Sure, some of the training changed might result in small marginal gains for Pogacar, but that amount of improving just means way more or new rocket fuel. The fact that the Emirates have the UCI in their pockets surely helps.

No, it's not. It is clear Pogacar improved a lot in hot weather and that's merit of Sola. That doesn't mean, he is not in a better doping program but who tries to underestimate Sola's work is silly/naive to be honest.
Heat training and strenght training were big improvements, this is why his core is stronger and he changed even his way of attacking in steep gradients (very little movement from his upper body and never gets out of the saddle).

 

[Mayomaniac]

No, it's not. It is clear Pogacar improved a lot in hot weather and that's merit of Sola. That doesn't mean, he is not in a better doping program but who tries to underestimate Sola's work is silly/naive to be honest.
Heat training and strenght training were big improvements, this is why his core is stronger and he changed even his way of attacking in steep gradients (very little movement from his upper body and never gets out of the saddle).

Nobody denies that heat training helped him a lot and that shorter cranks help someone who was a bigger gear masher than him (also helps to tap into more of the benefits of oxygen vector doping), but the big jump in wattages is just silly, I don't buy into the second Spanish fraud's propaganda either.

 

[Extinction]

Everybody can improve with better training, but attacking seated and pulling away from the best in the world looking fresh as a daisy is what seems unrealistic.

 

[Red Rick]

I really do think we should try to refrain from relying too much on eye tests such as "fresh as a daisy" cause it just turns into subjective nonsense, and it's completely natural they recover quickly after the finish because that's what peak fitness looks like.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I really do think we should try to refrain from relying too much on eye tests such as "fresh as a daisy" cause it just turns into subjective nonsense, and it's completely natural they recover quickly after the finish because that's what peak fitness looks like.

Nah, Pogacar was cruising in stage 7 for example.

 

[Extinction]

I really do think we should try to refrain from relying too much on eye tests such as "fresh as a daisy" cause it just turns into subjective nonsense, and it's completely natural they recover quickly after the finish because that's what peak fitness looks like.

"Fresh as a daisy" at this level cycling up a mountain means "shows no sign of suffering," which I think aptly describes what we all saw. Peak Pantani, who was clearly on EPO, even when he destroyed the opposition, had fatigue and pathos written all over his face (which at the time was compelling). In fact, he famously quipped when asked why he rides uphill so fast that it was to shorten the suffering (not avoid it). By contrast, with the latest Pogacar it seems he still has more power to go before he really begins to hurt, whilst destroying Vingegaard et al. This, of course, is not normal, no matter how you look at it. I've participated in and followed cycling for 40+ years and have never seen anything like it. All the really big engines of the past since I've been watching, from Hinault to the present always showed signs of the really big efforts on their faces and postures, except 2024-2025 Pogi. A water bottle to the kid, a bow to the crowd at the finish and viola, he's just warming up, all under Giannetti's suzerainty and backed by UAE petrol dollars. Everything has a limit in terms of decency.

 

[Red Rick]

"Fresh as a daisy" at this level cycling up a mountain means "shows no sign of suffering," which I think aptly describes what we all saw. Peak Pantani, who was clearly on EPO, even when he destroyed the opposition, had fatigue and pathos written all over his face (which at the time was compelling). In fact, he famously quipped when asked why he rides uphill so fast that it was to shorten the suffering (not avoid it). By contrast, with the latest Pogacar it seems he still has more power to go before he really begins to hurt, whilst destroying Vingegaard et al. This, of course, is not normal, no matter how you look at it. I've participated in and followed cycling for 40+ years and have never seen anything like it. All the really big engines of the past since I've been watching, from Hinault to the present always showed signs of the really big efforts on their faces and postures, except 2024-2025 Pogi. A water bottle to the kid, a bow to the crowd at the finish and viola, he's just warming up, all under Giannetti's suzerainty and backed by UAE petrol dollars. Everything has a limit in terms of decency.

I agree to some extent, but I also think there's a clear stylistic element to riders in that. Froome always looked laboured. Nibali could look really smooth before looking down and suddenly pedaling squares. I think Roglic has been misread as riding easily quite a few times too.

Now with Pogacar, I'll say that I flat out disagree when people say he looked easy on Combloux, he rode away easily, and then he was struggling mightily just like everyone else becasue everyone smashed head first into that climb. Like he had his head on a swivel on the middle section of that climb.

Then for the rest, to me looking easy just means at the most that it's a controlled effort, which still can easily just mean a threshold effort, so it doesn't necessarily mean they can just go minutes faster. And Pogacar specifically is a guy who has an almost pathological need to show off so he probably does every indoor training in front of the mirror trying not to grimace.

 

[Extinction]

I agree to some extent, but I also think there's a clear stylistic element to riders in that. Froome always looked laboured. Nibali could look really smooth before looking down and suddenly pedaling squares. I think Roglic has been misread as riding easily quite a few times too.

Now with Pogacar, I'll say that I flat out disagree when people say he looked easy on Combloux, he rode away easily, and then he was struggling mightily just like everyone else becasue everyone smashed head first into that climb. Like he had his head on a swivel on the middle section of that climb.

Then for the rest, to me looking easy just means at the most that it's a controlled effort, which still can easily just mean a threshold effort, so it doesn't necessarily mean they can just go minutes faster. And Pogacar specifically is a guy who has an almost pathological need to show off so he probably does every indoor training in front of the mirror trying not to grimace.

Well, all cyclists try to conceal how much they are laboring, either to discourage a stronger opponent from attacking or to make it seem everything is under control when they surge ahead. I get that. With Pogacar, however, since last year it seems he really is just doing a controlled effort, when the whole history of the sport says he should not just be cruising along. The only time I really saw fatigue from him recently, was trying to drop MvDP on the Cipressa/Poggio. But on the long climbs the devastating effort seems effortless and then I'm bamboozled.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Well, all cyclists try to conceal how much they are laboring, either to discourage a stronger opponent from attacking or to make it seem everything is under control when they surge ahead. I get that. With Pogacar, however, since last year it seems he really is just doing a controlled effort, when the whole history of the sport says he should not just be cruising along. The only time I really saw fatigue from him recently, was trying to drop MvDP on the Cipressa/Poggio. But on the long climbs the devastating effort seems effortless and then I'm bamboozled.

Not true. Even when he is hurting Pogacar doesnt show much.

When he collapsed on Loze and lost 5 minutes, you couldnt really see on his face that he was totally dead until the finish line

 

[Ripper]

Well, all cyclists try to conceal how much they are laboring, either to discourage a stronger opponent from attacking or to make it seem everything is under control when they surge ahead. I get that. With Pogacar, however, since last year it seems he really is just doing a controlled effort, when the whole history of the sport says he should not just be cruising along. The only time I really saw fatigue from him recently, was trying to drop MvDP on the Cipressa/Poggio. But on the long climbs the devastating effort seems effortless and then I'm bamboozled.

There also seems to be some confusion with some folks (not with you!) that betraying effort is a facial thing.

While pulling faces is always an interesting and dramatic part of sport, much of what you are talking about involves what you would see with increased nervous system activation (increase breathing rate, sweating, skin color change), greater biomechanical recruitment of musculature to increase speed/power, etc. ... the list goes on a bit. Stuff you cannot fake. And these things add up to our observations of what can make an effort look like it is taking its toll. I think you can hide, to an extent, 'suffering'. But we are talking about hiding effort here, which is not really a thing

 

[Unchained]

Not true. Even when he is hurting Pogacar doesnt show much.

When he collapsed on Loze and lost 5 minutes, you couldnt really see on his face that he was totally dead until the finish line

If you watch him post crash at Strade Bianchi he is all over, sliding back and forth on the seat, going to and over the limit much of the time, and when he goes into distress he has a more bouncy jerky upper body.... he gets slammed so infrequently that it's sort of fun to watch.. Remco is much more exaggerated when he cracks or gets close, starts going full rodeo, normal smoothness disappears.
With Team UAE I don't anticipate Pogacar in the wind at all for first 10 days minus the TT.

 

[noob]

Stream of noob consciousness.

I think this latest discussion about poker faces made me realise what I struggle about the most with Pog persona; he constantly tries to be cool in a rock star wannabee kind of way that just feels hollow and ridiculous to me. I kinda get involuntarily second hand embarrassment. Obviously second hand embarrassment says more about the one experiencing it. But I do kinda cringe a bit. (I do that when Jonas says he wanted to win for him and her and this and that too)

And it makes me uncomfortable.

Spoiler

(And I don't think Remco ever made me cringe cause he's much more childlike and immediately reactive).

Spoiler: Spoiler 2

(I used to get a very similar rock star wannabee vibes from Wout. And he ended up on Masked Singer...)

 

[Rob5091]

Poker faces? Do we want to go back to the era of Tommy Vockler? Ok, it was hilarious with some guy huffing and puffing, tounge hanging out just after passing km 0. Maybe Pogacar should talk to Vockler for some tips.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

All Im saying is that Pogi dominance over the others is the same as other GOAT dominance compared to others.

Meaning Pogi is not more dominant over the rest of the field as Messi and Ronaldo were. Or Michael Jordan was.

The difference being, that their dominance is enabled by their endurance, fitness and strength, but is not explainable by it at all. It's a very different story in cycling that basically is about watts + a bit of smarts. Football is about technique, reaction time, decision making, strategic ability, interpreting space (Müller!), moving in a collective and the list goes on and on and on. Basketball likewise.

 

[noob]

Poker faces? Do we want to go back to the era of Tommy Vockler? Ok, it was hilarious with some guy huffing and puffing, tounge hanging out just after passing km 0. Maybe Pogacar should talk to Vockler for some tips.

Or just ask Almeida. He always looks like he's suffering 🤣 The only difference is if he's really suffering or really really suffering 🤣

 

[Extinction]

Not true. Even when he is hurting Pogacar doesnt show much.

When he collapsed on Loze and lost 5 minutes, you couldnt really see on his face that he was totally dead until the finish line

Nah, when you collapse like that it's resignation. He couldn't go any deeper so the face was just like WTF, I'm f-ed. Pog looked resigned and incredulous at once, said in the race radio "I'm gone" and that was that. It's totally different when you can still push yourself to hurt more and that's when you see suffering on the face (plus all the things Ripper astutely pointed out). By contrast, with 2024-2025 version Pog it all looks so facile, because when he's crushing the best in the world it's just a controlled effort. Never seen it. It's too superior and when you are too superior in cycling on the most well-funded team that has the UCI in its pocket with the history of its operative staff...

 

[Stablo]

UAE is the PSG of cycling. PSG had the most money for more than a decade and didn't win 1 Champions league until this year. Funny enough for both PSG and UAE the key has been the same : trainer (Sola for UAE and Luis Enrique for PSG).

You're comparing a manager in football to a physics coach in cycling, don't you see any difference. Surely Sola is the mastermind of training, that no one else can come close to or even copy. Both of the teams were winning a lot aswell, even thought the Champions league title was avoiding PSG.

 

[E_F_]

The thing is I had a look at a grainy youtube upload of Pantani's AdH record. I didn't really see much there. To me he more or less just looked like he was just out riding his bike, while his opponents were all ***ed. Looked pretty Pogly, Poggish to me...