Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pelotonIQ]

...they quite literally pride themselves on using unobtrusive measures to test the bikes.

I don't see where the ''pride'' is? Stripping a bicycle of all components and parts to examine them is only done as a last resort, has nothing to do with pride.

 

[Ripper]

I have pointed out that it is ridiculous to ask Arennsman or Pogacar what happened at Sky in 2012. That is not omerta! Only people involved in Sky at the time could answer questions about 2012. The strangest thing is that if someone was taking PROHIBITED substances they are hardly likely to tell all.

Hmmm. It is "ridiculous" to ask about the person working on your team, who is with your team at the Tour, about the implications of what they might have done to facilitate doping in the past. Don't buy that. It's not like Rozman is a shady figure long since forgotten; the dude currently works for the team and was at the race. That is a Team Ineos problem for certain, but they did not in any way help their riders.

And considering this is a fellow who is currently at the race and has apparent ties to UAE management, questions to that team are also fair game.

BTW folks, millionaire Pogocar is doing just fine and can answer some questions and is not under hardship doing so. Some of our posters are the ones who seem to get extremely hot under the collar about the questions! I think PR training is in order!!

 

[Ripper]

Ah yes it is black and white. Either its prohibited or not, and if it is prohibited then there is zero chance to not know.

Maybe you need to get your head out of the sand and open your eyes... Don't be so naïeve man...

I would add that the WADA Prohibited List also speaks generally to methods of doping, etc. This is an effort to remove the gray area and why CO breathing was banned even before last year when it received specific attention

 

[yaco]

Ah yes it is black and white. Either its prohibited or not, and if it is prohibited then there is zero chance to not know.

Maybe you need to get your head out of the sand and open your eyes... Don't be so naïeve man...

If it is a substance not on the banned then all is far in love and war. Lets face it, professional athletes will use any advantage to increase performance. For example, if you told them too eat cow poo to increase performance they would do it.

 

[yaco]

Hmmm. It is "ridiculous" to ask about the person working on your team, who is with your team at the Tour, about the implications of what they might have done to facilitate doping in the past. Don't buy that. It's not like Rozman is a shady figure long since forgotten; the dude currently works for the team and was at the race. That is a Team Ineos problem for certain, but they did not in any way help their riders.

And considering this is a fellow who is currently at the race and has apparent ties to UAE management, questions to that team are also fair game.

BTW folks, millionaire Pogocar is doing just fine and can answer some questions and is not under hardship doing so. Some of our posters are the ones who seem to get extremely hot under the collar about the questions! I think PR training is in order!!

Nah - You ask the members of the Ineos team who were present in 2012. Of course they are unlikely to answer your questions which is their prerogative, but there is no relevance in asking people who were not involved in the team at that time. I'll let you support this cohort of second class journalists. Finally, it appears that the ITIA did look at Rosman in April 2025 and it passed through to the keeper. Apparently they are revisiting the case which I assume is due to the media firestorm, so lets see if anything has changed from April to July.

 

[Cookster15]

Certainly not. But a motor could be concealed from an X-ray machine.

They very much could be found by trained mechanics, but I've seen nothing to suggest that trained mechanics are even necessarily involved in the testing - if indeed there is any testing. And we don't know that there aren't motor which would require a thorough search to be found - and while...

...they quite literally pride themselves on using unobtrusive measures to test the bikes.

IMO the only way motors could be used is UCI collusion to deliberately not find motors. But I am not convinced there is any reason that might happen.

Even Red Rick posted a while back he thinks it (Pogacar or Vingegaard superiority) is more likely just development of known blood doping procedures.

I think the idea is timing of EPO micro-doses relative to when riders are tested after important stage finishes could be manipulated to fool the biological passport (glow time) .... or the passport data is not being properly analysed over time to secure a indictable adverse finding. IMO, the bar is set too high to satisfy the lawyers. Maybe that was why it took 8 years to lasso Juan Jose Cobo?

 

[E_F_]

IMO the only way motors could be used is UCI collusion to deliberately not find motors.

I know that's what you think, and to some extent I probably agree.

I was merely providing some counter-arguments. I don't remember ever seeing @Red Rick doing any motordopingposting in here, and I'm starting to come around to the perspective on the explanatory power of blood doping.

My current opinion is something like this: While there's not all that indicating that motordoping is happening, I've also yet to see a compelling argument that it couldn't be happening. Plenty of factors making it less likely have been commented on the forum, but the stronger claims mostly fall flat for me.

 

[Cookster15]

Plenty of factors making it less likely have been commented on the forum, but the stronger claims mostly fall flat for me.

Plenty more factors suggesting motor doping was more likely have been commented on the forum, but all these claims fall flat for me.

 

[Red Rick]

The problem with motordoping discussion is simply that it seems to be a catchphrase more than an actual discussion of the how's and whats, how detection should work and how it should be evaded.

Currently the discussion doesn't seem to go much deeper than "seated acceleration", "he touched something on his bike" and "he doesn't look tired". Those are all just nott good enough and it makes me feel like a lunatic entertaining the thought.

The counterpoint is that motors are definitely so out that even guys who are cynical as *** like me really don't even want to believe that. It's like a crossing the Rubicon moment for the sport if it ever happens. And at the same time, that also makes you think they'll never try to catch it.

At some level I almost think that pro team's bikes getting stolen may actually lead to motor reveals or some absolutely dank *** like that.

 

[thetdog666]

They are or you think they are?

There is no such thing as motors invisible to X-Ray detectors and even if there were they would eventually be found by trained mechanics. Plus the UCI can pull apart bikes if motors are suspected.

Think. I did speak with a former European pro cyclist and he mentioned drugs are much the same as years ago but they use motors now aswell.

Somethings going on anyway with the speeds they are going.

 

[Abedfo]

I think the sad truth is that any of the doping vectors are fair game now along with motors because i think the UCI have absolutely no desire to piss in their own pot again. Im also sure they are also having their chains lubricated by some dirty cash along with the riches afforded from a more popular sport.

Its just life, its business, you see it day to day in everywalk of life.

 

[E_F_]

Plenty more factors suggesting motor doping was more likely have been commented on the forum, but all these claims fall flat for me.

So what you're saying is that the fact that bikes very rarely get disassembled during checks doesn't make motordoping more likely..?

 

[dr.eve]

Plenty more factors suggesting motor doping was more likely have been commented on the forum, but all these claims fall flat for me.

I dont think motor is really feasible either, however I still do not understand how UCI is checking for them. X ray machines? They bring them to races I read, how often do they check the bikes of a stage/race winner? Is this at every race?

Or is the motor check merely via tablets, which no matter what kind of fancy app you install on it is never an x ray device. As far as I see it its mostly done with these very limited devices. But again I don't know. And even so I still dont think Pogacar for example is motor doping.

 

[Nomad]

Logically & realistically, wouldn't it likely be some level of mechanical enhancement vs biological doping? No one is testing positive these days (remember back in Armstrong's heyday, so many were getting busted for doping that it wasn't even funny). No one is blowing their ABP. And no doping rings busted like Operation Aderlass was several years ago (and that wasn't even involving any big name cyclists).

And with the ABP, it's so advanced now with the hematological, steroidal & hormonal modules, that at the first sign of any anomalies, there's aggressive target testing like crazy. And the ABP wouldn't allow industrial-size O2-vector doping anyway- the kind of doping that produced those insane performances back in the wild 1990s & early 2000 when riders could dope with impunity. All a rider can really do with the hematological module in play is "microdosing" to stay within their set parameters which doesn't increase blood values that significantly.

And the notion of some undetectable super PED(s) is ridiculous since they freeze samples for up to 8 yrs for retesting. The Russians tried pulling that stunt with some undetectable PEDs at the 2012 London Olympics only to have samples come up positive years later upon retesting. Lol. I can't imagine any riders using some currently undetectable PED(s) knowing their samples with be stored for years to come subject to future retesting.

Perhaps "motordoping" is widespread with some money teams having an advanced R&D program, and the UCI knows about it but doesn't want to open up a can of worms ultimately risking the destuction of the sport?

Just food for thought....

 

[topcat]

The problem with motordoping discussion is simply that it seems to be a catchphrase more than an actual discussion of the how's and whats, how detection should work and how it should be evaded.

Currently the discussion doesn't seem to go much deeper than "seated acceleration", "he touched something on his bike" and "he doesn't look tired". Those are all just nott good enough and it makes me feel like a lunatic entertaining the thought.

The counterpoint is that motors are definitely so out that even guys who are cynical as *** like me really don't even want to believe that. It's like a crossing the Rubicon moment for the sport if it ever happens. And at the same time, that also makes you think they'll never try to catch it.

At some level I almost think that pro team's bikes getting stolen may actually lead to motor reveals or some absolutely dank *** like that.

The stolen bike with the motor is the training bike. The race bike, of course, has no motor because that would be immoral.
CO has been used for testing but not for performance enhancements.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Tadej Pogacar is exceptional but I think he is also clean

This era has been the most credible that cycling has known and it should be celebrated — as should its dominant rider after clinching his fourth Tour de France

www.thetimes.com

 

[Cookster15]

At some level I almost think that pro team's bikes getting stolen may actually lead to motor reveals or some absolutely dank *** like that.

That's a very good point and there have been stories of professional team bikes being stolen. No team would want to risk motors being found on their stolen bikes. End of the sport. End of anyone holding any paid position at the UCI.

 

[peterfin]

I am still in the camp that considers motor doping unlikely but I do not consider the idea crazy.

First of all, messaging from the UCI clearly shows that their main intention of the motor screening is to show the outside world that they take motors seriously, not that they have a system in place that is foolproof.

The former point is pretty clear in their main tool to screen the bikes: the tablet. You may catch an amateur but not an advanced pro-tour team with these devices.

Additionally, the procedures in place are not transparant at all for us. When do they decide to screen a bike? What is the hand over procedure? Can they 100% confirm it is the actual bike? What happens with bike changes during the race? When do they use an X-ray? When do they dissasemble a bike?

I can't imagine a team will use a motor if there is a real risk of being caught so there needs to be a loophole that allows them to be sure that the risk is manageable. I see three possibilities: 1. Due to the current procedures, the team knows the bike with the motor is not screened with an X-ray and is not dissasembled (if it actually hapoens). 2. The procedures in place for screening with the X-ray or even dissasembly (if it actually happens) are not sufficient to catch the motor. 3. The team knows that they won't get caught because (some) people from the UCI are complicit in the fraud.

The first possibility looks the least plausable if the bike is handed over to the UCI at the finish. There are too many people seeing what happens with the bike. The second possibility has a low probability due to the technical challenges (but the probability is definitely not zero). The third scenario has a low probability as multiple people need to be involved. On the other hand, as confirmed here be a junior UCI judge, X-ray tests are done by higher ranked judges so they are not fully transparant to everyone of the organization.

 

[Rotted Melon]

Tadej Pogacar is exceptional but I think he is also clean

This era has been the most credible that cycling has known and it should be celebrated — as should its dominant rider after clinching his fourth Tour de France

www.thetimes.com

I have a wife and kids who depend on me to bring home the bacon. I always dreamed of writing a great novel or Pulitzer prize winning expose, but instead I am here, on this level, where I have to regurgitate what is fed to me in a more and more and more and more positive light. I know in some facet of my life that I am not the man I wanted to be, but to see the smiles on my well fed childrens' faces and my wife, in her new gown. This is all I could have really hoped for anyway. Read my article and don't question why the tabloid doesn't allow a comments section.

 

[Tim Cahill]

You'd think Walsh would have the shame not to write any more of these fluff-pieces for a bit after events in the last couple of months, but here we are.

 

[peterfin]

I wonder why journals are always so good contrarian plays? Once they start glorifying something and all critic us gone, the opposite happens. A classic are the Economist "US bull market" covers. You can be sure a crash is about to happen if they feature it.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The counterpoint is that motors are definitely so out that even guys who are cynical as *** like me really don't even want to believe that. It's like a crossing the Rubicon moment for the sport if it ever happens. And at the same time, that also makes you think they'll never try to catch it.

Uncovering motors would end the sport as we know it. I think if any top cyclist was caught they wouldn't reveal it but instead would force him into temporary retirement.

 

[HashRouge]

The problem with motordoping discussion is simply that it seems to be a catchphrase more than an actual discussion of the how's and whats, how detection should work and how it should be evaded.

Currently the discussion doesn't seem to go much deeper than "seated acceleration", "he touched something on his bike" and "he doesn't look tired". Those are all just nott good enough and it makes me feel like a lunatic entertaining the thought.

The counterpoint is that motors are definitely so out that even guys who are cynical as *** like me really don't even want to believe that. It's like a crossing the Rubicon moment for the sport if it ever happens. And at the same time, that also makes you think they'll never try to catch it.

At some level I almost think that pro team's bikes getting stolen may actually lead to motor reveals or some absolutely dank *** like that.

This. It also doesn't help that the "video evidence" of mysteriously spinning wheels has then been debunked by people watching the full recording, rather than the cleverly edited clip (like that clip of was it Mikkel Bjerg at TdS?).

 

[Extinction]

I'll surmise the Froome era by saying any evidence of more inquisitive questioning from the press on matters relating to PED abuse was also a leftover of the Armstrong affair. All of Froome's wins happened around that time and a few years later, so it was all fresh. The critical mood surrounding doping wasn't just about him or Sky per se, it was about the epoch he raced in. The real scandal with Froome happened after his positive salbutamol bust at which point it appeared the media in its ensemble was more afraid of litigation than calling a spade a spade. They totally backed off and now they sugercoat the man whenever he makes a (rare) appearance.

So these days it's almost all locked down. There's very little questioning going on. In fact there was way more questioning of Pog back in 2020 and 2021 (after LPdBF and Le Grand Bornand). I also saw way more people question Vingegaard after Combloux ITT 2023 for example than we've seen going after Pog in this Tour.

It's like the media and followers have just gotten blasé about it all and rolls with the punches, which is pretty much where everyone was back in 1997.

They, the media, have simply given up on demanding a clean sport. There was a chance after Armstrong, but then came Froome, after Contador, and they realized it wasn't wise to keep spitting on the plate from which you eat. Sky/Ineos was too big to fail, like US Postal before, and so it is now with UAE. Remember the sport didn't bring Armstrong down, but I don't think Slovenia has any interest in pursuing Pogi.

 

[Rob5091]

Uncovering motors would end the sport as we know it. I think if any top cyclist was caught they wouldn't reveal it but instead would force him into temporary retirement.

Nah, we would get the "bad apple", and all the other excuses to say it was a one off, and hope everyone else using a motor would knock it off. All the people at ITA would of course be all puffed up, as they would be the people finding it.
Also, the old adage of the cover up being worse then the crime, as if it did come out after a deal with the UCI, then the UCI would also be in the sh*tter. I do n't think Lappi would risk his neck for a one dodgy cyclist.