Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

Evenepoel's birthday is in January. Without his having travelled to Australia, who do you expect him to have raced against as an 18 year old?

Are you really trying to draw a distinction between the potential that riders showed, and the validity of their racing record, on the basis of what month their birthday falls?

I don't know what you're fussing about. Another poster suggested that I should compare Pogacar's results with those of Remco, Seixas and Widar, so I did. Not sure how Australia fits into the picture, but the fact that he was born in January is definitely an advantage, as he was older than his opponents. There's nothing wrong with competing against juniors at the age of 18. But why is the poster trying to make it seem more valuable than an elite race, or more challenging than riding a 14km climb with someone who finished in the top five in a Grand Tour?

Pogacar won the Tour before his 22nd birthday. Aged 20 in 2019, he became the youngest cyclist to win a UCI World Tour race at the Tour of California. There were some decent riders in that race.

So only riders who mature before they turn 20 have talent? We won't know how good Seixas or Vidar truly are until their careers play out. Many riders who show talent before they turn 20 have unremarkable careers. Even Andy Schleck many said would be the next big thing when he came 2nd in the Giro at 21. Andy was very good but not a great.

Andy Schleck joined Riis's CSC team at the age of 19. The sooner you enter a professional environment, the sooner you will fulfil your potential. I think it's just that simple.

It's no coincidence that many riders have performed at such a high level at such a young age in recent years. This is because teams have started investing in development teams.

There's a guy in my local area who is on one of the best WT team's development teams this year. Last year, he was on a local-ish conti team. He said there's a huge difference, in terms of recovery, as he gets to sleep in a hotel after races instead of having to drive for hours to get home. Everything is taken care of for him: food, nutrients, expensive training camps at high altitude etc.. He doesn't have to worry about anything except training, racing, and recovery.

There is no question that Seixas is a mega talent, the best in his age group, and will likely continue to improve. But I bet he is much closer to his maximum potential than 18yo Pogacar was when he was racing for a low-end Slovenian conti team.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I don't know what you're fussing about.

You said :

Remco has absolutely no results at the age of 18. The guy farmed victories in junior races against 17 year olds and second-tier 18 year olds.

I pointed out that there were no races, other than the Tour down Under, in which 18 year old Evenepoel possibly could have raced against anyone other than 17 and 18 year olds. And 18 year olds were not in those races because they were "second-tier", but because they had not yet started the calendar year in which their 19th birthday falls.

Your criticism of what 18 year old Evenepoel did was entirely fatuous, because those were the only people that the rules of the sport allowed him to race against. Whether you didn't know that, or whether you were being deliberately disingenuous, I don't know. Maybe you will let us know which it was.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

You said :


I pointed out that there were no races, other than the Tour down Under, in which 18 year old Evenepoel possibly could have raced against anyone other than 17 and 18 year olds. And not 18 year olds were not in those races because they were "second-tier", but because they had not yet started the calendar year in which their 19th birthday falls.

Your criticism of what 18 year old Evenepoel did was entirely fatuous, because those were the only people that the rules of the sport allowed him to race against. Whether you didn't know that, or whether you were being deliberately disingenuous, I don't know. Maybe you will let us know which it was.

As far as I know, this does not apply to NAT races. I'm certain that Tulett competed in the elite category when he was 16 years old. If Remco had wanted to race against tougher opponents or take part in longer races, he would have found a way to do so.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

As far as I know, this does not apply to NAT races. I'm certain that Tulett competed in the elite category when he was 16 years old. If Remco had wanted to race against tougher opponents or take part in longer races, he would have found a way to do so.

Like you would have given him credit for riding against the level of riders to be found in NAT level races...

Not sure how Australia fits into the picture,

That was the only professional race he could have taken part in before his 19th birthday: you were making an issue of what he had done aged 18.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

Like you would have given him credit for riding against the level of riders to be found in NAT level races...

Once again, I simply compared the results that the poster requested. It was ridiculous anyway that he tried to frame Remco as some long- known cycling prodigy when he only started riding at the age of 17...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Once again, I simply compared the results that the poster requested. It was ridiculous anyway that he tried to frame Remco as some long- known cycling prodigy when he only started riding at the age of 17...

So are you going to do that comparison: Pogacar's first year out of juniors (2017) vs Evenepoel's first year out of juniors (2019)?

 

[Stablo]

Lmao. Pogacar was in a low-end Slovenian continental team, he raced wherever they got invited.

Remco has absolutely no results at the age of 18. The guy farmed victories in junior races against 17 year olds and second-tier 18 year olds.

Seixas has been working with a WT team for three years now. He is completely irrelevant in this regard.

Widar, as an 18 year old, mixed U23 and lower category men's races. Pog's fifth place in the Tour de Slovenia 2.1 race is far better than any of his results. So what exactly are you talking about?

Saying pog tha Dopačar was something in juoniors talentwise compared to Evenepoel (who had just started cycling) is really something. The monsters rise started with the UAE&Gianetti connection, get over it. He was going to make a nice career anyways, im not saying he didn't have talent, but the things we are now seeing, yeah right.

 

[Stablo]

The worst thing is that this is not going to stop with Pogacar. I'm pretty sure Del Toro is getting some royal treatment at UAE as well.
There's something strange about these 'talents' when they join UAE.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Pogacar: as said previously, not an amazing junior, decent first year U23
Signs for UAE in July 2018.
Wins Tour de l'Avenir in August 2018
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Del Toro: not an amazing junior, mediocre first U23 year, decent second second U23 year until he...
chooses for UAE in August 2018.
Blows everyone away in Tour de l'Avenir later that month
is now suddenly some generational talent
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Pablo Torres: Actually a very good junior
signs for UAE gen-z in February 2024
Blows everyone away on Colle delle Finestre in the... Tour de l'Avenir

This was actually on point analysis, good but nothing special. Not saying his rise was Froome caliber, but like Lance 2.0 sort of miracle.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I don't know what you're fussing about. Another poster suggested that I should compare Pogacar's results with those of Remco, Seixas and Widar, so I did. Not sure how Australia fits into the picture, but the fact that he was born in January is definitely an advantage, as he was older than his opponents. There's nothing wrong with competing against juniors at the age of 18. But why is the poster trying to make it seem more valuable than an elite race, or more challenging than riding a 14km climb with someone who finished in the top five in a Grand Tour?



Andy Schleck joined Riis's CSC team at the age of 19. The sooner you enter a professional environment, the sooner you will fulfil your potential. I think it's just that simple.

It's no coincidence that many riders have performed at such a high level at such a young age in recent years. This is because teams have started investing in development teams.

There's a guy in my local area who is on one of the best WT team's development teams this year. Last year, he was on a local-ish conti team. He said there's a huge difference, in terms of recovery, as he gets to sleep in a hotel after races instead of having to drive for hours to get home. Everything is taken care of for him: food, nutrients, expensive training camps at high altitude etc.. He doesn't have to worry about anything except training, racing, and recovery.

There is no question that Seixas is a mega talent, the best in his age group, and will likely continue to improve. But I bet he is much closer to his maximum potential than 18yo Pogacar was when he was racing for a low-end Slovenian conti team.

CSC was "professional" indeed, this is a rather counter productive argument as far as cleanliness goes...

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

So are you going to do that comparison: Pogacar's first year out of juniors (2017) vs Evenepoel's first year out of juniors (2019)?

Remco was already in a WT team, Pog was in a poor conti team. As I have mentioned several times, this makes a big difference. Not to mention that Pog was basically a year younger in 2017 than Remco is in 2019. But even if we disregard all of that, when exactly did Remco show climbing performance in 2019 that was comparable to Pog's in the 2017 Tour of Slovenia?

 

[Unchained]

So is the overview that you have to be an outstanding junior to be a credible adult racer? And where does the Roglic trajectory and backstory fit in this narrative?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Remco was already in a WT team, Pog was in a poor conti team. As I have mentioned several times, this makes a big difference. Not to mention that Pog was basically a year younger in 2017 than Remco is in 2019. But even if we disregard all of that, when exactly did Remco show climbing performance in 2019 that was comparable to Pog's in the 2017 Tour of Slovenia?

So no, you are not willing to.

Evenepoel was indeed in a WorldTeam, and Pogacar in a modest Continental team. Do you not think that was something to do with which one of them was considered to be something of a prodigy, and which had a junior career that didn't necessarily augur anything remarkable to come?

 

[Peyroteo94]

So no, you are not willing to.

Evenepoel was indeed in a WorldTeam, and Pogacar in a modest Continental team. Do you not think that was something to do with which one of them was considered to be something of a prodigy, and which had a junior career that didn't necessarily augur anything remarkable to come?

I think their nationality weighs a lot in this.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So are you going to do that comparison: Pogacar's first year out of juniors (2017) vs Evenepoel's first year out of juniors (2019)?

Not sure if someone already mentioned it but because their age difference is 1 year and 4 months it actually makes sense to also compare seasons one year apart.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

So no, you are not willing to.

Evenepoel was indeed in a WorldTeam, and Pogacar in a modest Continental team. Do you not think that was something to do with which one of them was considered to be something of a prodigy, and which had a junior career that didn't necessarily augur anything remarkable to come?

I have already answered that. Despite the disadvantages, 18yo Pogacar, who did not have the wealth of resources that a WT team provides, produced a better climbing effort on Rogla than 19yo Remco did in 2019 while riding for a WT team. What other kind of comparison do you want?

And it's pointless to constantly spin around the junior results. Oddly enough, cycling is a sport where 17-18-year-olds do something completely different from the elite category. Junior races lack distance, vertical meters, mountains, etc. They lack almost everything that is necessary to win a serious one-day or multi-day race in the elite category.

There was a guy who beat Remco a few times in the junior category, Karel Vacek (Mathias' brother), the guy retired last year at the age of 24. That's how much these results mean in terms of how good someone will be as a rider among the elite.

 

[hrotha]

I have already answered that. Despite the disadvantages, 18yo Pogacar, who did not have the wealth of resources that a WT team provides, produced a better climbing effort on Rogla than 19yo Remco did in 2019 while riding for a WT team. What other kind of comparison do you want?

And it's pointless to constantly spin around the junior results. Oddly enough, cycling is a sport where 17-18-year-olds do something completely different from the elite category. Junior races lack distance, vertical meters, mountains, etc. They lack almost everything that is necessary to win a serious one-day or multi-day race in the elite category.

There was a guy who beat Remco a few times in the junior category, Karel Vacek (Mathias' brother), the guy retired last year at the age of 24. That's how much these results mean in terms of how good someone will be as a rider among the elite.

You're inverting the terms. Nobody is saying someone who does great in the junior category will also necessarily be a world class professional cyclist. What people are saying is that it's rare to see a world class professional cyclist who didn't do great in the junior category

 

[Cookster15]

It doesn't matter how much we love or praise the Tour.
It's 2nd tier in the grand scheme of sports.

I think what Red Rick is saying is yes cycling is a 2nd tier sport compared to American sports and soccer (or even cricket which is a religion in India). But the Tour de France is globally recognized and by people and corporations outside of cycling - i.e. a much larger potential market. That is why the Tour is a powerful way to promote anything. Hence UAE's interest.

But to counter that I would say Pogacar isn't well known to people outside of cycling and UAE isn't exactly a popular tourist destination, outside of say Burj Khalifa (world's tallest building). Polls in America (or in my country, Australia) the majority would not be familiar with Pogacar or UAE, Tour victories or not. So I still wonder what is the motivation or UAE or even the UCI to look the the other way as we know happened with Lance?

 

[aphronesis]

Yeah, but it took a home country’s investigation after Armstrong burned Floyd and staged a pointless comeback for that to happen. There was enough internal history, multiple witnesses combined with accounts of abusive behavior to substantiate the claims and trail. Without that sequence maybe it’s arguable that nothing would have ever happened. Especially from the realm of cycling.

Couldn’t the UAE, with no real native cycling, walk away from a scandal as if it never happened? (Astana did.) And for the UCI, as for sponsors, it seems the desire is less to look aside than to avoid any return to 20-30 years ago in terms of negative publicity.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

You're inverting the terms. Nobody is saying someone who does great in the junior category will also necessarily be a world class professional cyclist. What people are saying is that it's rare to see a world class professional cyclist who didn't do great in the junior category

Just for the record, Pogacar won the most prestigious junior stage race, the Giro della Lunigiana.

UAE isn't exactly a popular tourist destination

No offense, but Dubai is one of the world’s prime tourist destinations

Seventh most visited city in the world in terms of international tourism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors

UAE ranks sixth in the world in terms of international tourism receipts - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

 

[Mayomaniac]

Just for the record, Pogacar won the most prestigious junior stage race, the Giro della Lunigiana.



No offense, but Dubai is one of the world’s prime tourist destinations

Seventh most visited city in the world in terms of international tourism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_international_visitors

UAE ranks sixth in the world in terms of international tourism receipts - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

Yeah, Pogacar won a big junior race, but even in the U23 ranks he got still mogged in every single uphill or reduced sprint, before the rocket fuel gifted him a good sprint.
About tourism, only white trash, degenerates and escorts travel to Dubai...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Yeah, Pogacar won a big junior race, but even in the U23 ranks he got still mogged in every single uphill or reduced sprint

It also should be noted that Teddy is the only U23 rider in history who won the Tour twice.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Remco was already in a WT team, Pog was in a poor conti team. As I have mentioned several times, this makes a big difference. Not to mention that Pog was basically a year younger in 2017 than Remco is in 2019. But even if we disregard all of that, when exactly did Remco show climbing performance in 2019 that was comparable to Pog's in the 2017 Tour of Slovenia?

Evenepoel beat everyone in 2017 and 2018 when he was riding for Forte U19 Cycling Team and Acrog - Balen BC Junior. Not exactly WT.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Just for the record, Pogacar won the most prestigious junior stage race, the Giro della Lunigiana.

Most prestigious junior stage race? LOL. Course de la Paix wants to have a word with you.
Anyway, have you checked the opposition Pogacar beat that year? See whether you recognize many.
Regarding Pogacar: he beat his Slovenian compatriot Primozic by... 22 seconds.
Generational talent. LOL.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Pogacar won the Tour before his 22nd birthday. Aged 20 in 2019, he became the youngest cyclist to win a UCI World Tour race at the Tour of California. There were some decent riders in that race.

So only riders who mature before they turn 20 have talent? We won't know how good Seixas or Vidar truly are until their careers play out. Many riders who show talent before they turn 20 have unremarkable careers. Even Andy Schleck many said would be the next big thing when he came 2nd in the Giro at 21. Andy was very good but not a great.

I have explained time and time again it's all about the difference between riding for UAE and pre-UAE. This shouldn't be difficult to understand.
Not only for Pogacar, but also for Del Toro. How does this guy not win anything for 3 and a half seasons, joins UAE, wins Tour de l'Avenir out of the blue and becomes one of the best GT riders 1,5 years later?

You're free to believe this is all due to great organisation and training methods at UAE. Considering the history of Gianetti and Matxin, I have a different opinion.

Ayuso, who was a great talent pre-UAE, never made any such progress. I wonder why.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I have explained time and time again it's all about the difference between riding for UAE and pre-UAE. This shouldn't be difficult to understand.
Not only for Pogacar, but also for Del Toro. How does this guy not win anything for 3 and a half seasons, joins UAE, wins Tour de l'Avenir out of the blue and becomes one of the best GT riders 1,5 years later?

You're free to believe this is all due to great organisation and training methods at UAE. Considering the history of Gianetti and Matxin, I have a different opinion.

Ayuso, who was a great talent pre-UAE, never made any such progress. I wonder why.

Ayuso was already coached by San Millan when he rode for Colpack (pretty much from the start), so he already got the full UAE preparation while riding on a CT team, so he already made the big leap when he rode for them.