Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

With this I have to totally disagree with. It wasn't this particular day or performance, but the way this one guy does anything he wants, when ever he wants in an endurance sport. I might be a bit biased, cause I like Remco because of his natural progression and ability. I would also turn against him if he started doing poggie kind of seasons, it is just not beliavable. And now matter what anyone tried to convince me about, I will never believe that pog is naturally more talented than Remco or even MDVP. It would have never happened, but if it was without Gianetti&Co this dominance, but nah never. In an endurance sport like cycling the pog-thing is not real in a modern highly professional peloton. We used to laugh at the Landis raid, Froome was bad, Contador was suspect often, but now something way! more unbeliavable is the new normal. I am just out of words anymore.

But 2024 TdF PdB is a very valid point of reference. For the record I think they are all doing something. But I do tire of a lack of objectivity in The Clinic by rival fans.

Pog, Vingegaard and Remco all went under Pantani’s record by a significant margin that day. Vingegaard did despite his well known comeback from massive injuries. Remco, who you find more believable, beat a 57Kg EPO fueled rider by over 1 minute on an 8% 16km MTF at the end of a huge stage in hot weather. Clean? Not sure how?

IMO the doping omertà held because it doesn’t matter if other riders have a doping advantage of you are simply not doping as effectively why would you stir the pot? I think the term I read was “don’t spit in the soup”?

The other point not being discussed is age. You refer to natural progression. Pog was barely 20 years old when he came to UAE. Nobody is at peak level then. Everyone gets better in their mid 20’s to early 30s. Pog is now 26. Maybe we all need to look out for Del Toro now?

But on Gianetti, he made a name for himself with Ricciardo Ricco at the 2008 TdF. But Mauro Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari. Maybe this is UAE money? Just trying to explain impartially.

 

[AlpRaid]

But on Gianetti, he made a name for himself with Ricciardo Ricco at the 2008 TdF. But Mauro Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari. Maybe this is UAE money? Just trying to explain impartially.

He made his name way before as a super-doped rider requiring emergency hospitalization (google it).

gianetti + cycling = doping.

all he has ever known is doping, and to extremes others didn't dare -- as a rider and then as a manager.

what made him suddenly stop?

there's nothing.

no way around that.

it's like in Armstrong's time. everyone in cycling knew that you only go to Ferrari for doping. all cyclists (and their wives!) knew what armstrong was doing (and why he desperately tried to hide it and then made up the excuse that he was only consulting him for a tilt at the world hour record - which of course was never the plan, and he never did).

if uae chose gianetti as DS, it was because he specifically had that track record -- why else would you hire a man with such a resume? if every success he had is due to doping, what insight could he possibly bring as DS to a supposedly "clean" team. zero. nothing.

it's why I simply laugh at anyone who listens to Bruyneel. what does he know about race tactics? all he knows is riding when you know you are more doped than all the other riders. how the hell does that help you with knowing tactics?

 

[Rob5091]

Also, why did Jonas pull the pin with 109 km to go? Why did he show up if he was in such poor form? Disappointing.

I knew it would happen before the start (see my earlier post). He's never been a one day racer and end of season form has been poor, so it was obvious it was for the team, or money,or both.

 

[Extinction]

but then why let Vine be so much ahead... it if was team picture, that was being managed, that part didn't help it... also it seems rather funny image management, to then dominate again on the next weekend. No sorry, I won't buy this as the excuse that can take the blame for my great disappointment.

I don't know what your point is. The entire UAE team has been riding at a ridiculous level, so Vine's performance, who has always been fast in the TT, is little surprising. Look at how Almeida almost won the Vuelta. I doubt Pogi destroying Remco in the WCITT, would have been prudent before what they expected (and got) in Kigali and yesterday. Utter carnage. Even UAE must realize when gluttony becomes excessive. For the conspiracy theorists, perhaps they only gave him a normal bike in the TT to cool things down a bit.

 

[Ripper]

But on Gianetti, he made a name for himself with Ricciardo Ricco at the 2008 TdF. But Mauro Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari. Maybe this is UAE money? Just trying to explain impartially.

I thought Gianetti made a name for himself by being a doped rider during a very dirty period of racing and almost dying from doping? And then, yes, managing multiple teams with dopers galore.

It's like Gianetti has never known a non-doping method of racing.

And of course there is Matxin.

 

[Stablo]

But 2024 TdF PdB is a very valid point of reference. For the record I think they are all doing something. But I do tire of a lack of objectivity in The Clinic by rival fans.

Pog, Vingegaard and Remco all went under Pantani’s record by a significant margin that day. Vingegaard did despite his well known comeback from massive injuries. Remco, who you find more believable, beat a 57Kg EPO fueled rider by over 1 minute on an 8% 16km MTF at the end of a huge stage in hot weather. Clean? Not sure how?

IMO the doping omertà held because it doesn’t matter if other riders have a doping advantage of you are simply not doping as effectively why would you stir the pot? I think the term I read was “don’t spit in the soup”?

The other point not being discussed is age. You refer to natural progression. Pog was barely 20 years old when he came to UAE. Nobody is at peak level then. Everyone gets better in their mid 20’s to early 30s. Pog is now 26. Maybe we all need to look out for Del Toro now?

But on Gianetti, he made a name for himself with Ricciardo Ricco at the 2008 TdF. But Mauro Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari. Maybe this is UAE money? Just trying to explain impartially.

It has nothing to do with one particular climb or even a whole GT. I don't believe that the others are clean either, come on it's pro cycling. The thing just is, that this pog(and UAE) madness is so far ahead of anything natural and what has ever been seen, that it just makes the sport unbearable these days. And yes I don't believe in miracles like this and can't dream big 😉like one infamous cheater said back in the day and that the thig he was doing, wasn't even close to being this crazy.

 

[Cookster15]

I thought Gianetti made a name for himself by being a doped rider during a very dirty period of racing and almost dying from doping? And then, yes, managing multiple teams with dopers galore.

It's like Gianetti has never known a non-doping method of racing.

And of course there is Matxin.

The point is Ricco was laughable. Nobody was surprised when he was busted for CERA. And pretty sure Saunier Duval wasn’t the only team with dodgy management who are still involved in other teams today?

 

[AmRacer]

The thing is, if Pogi wasn't racing, Remco would have won solo most of these hilly races. As he has done before. And Remco is also the sole superior ITT champ.

 

[dr.eve]

[deleted content]

Exactly. I probably dislike Remco even more than Tadej haha. Though I still hope he can beat Pogacar same as I welcome anyone who can for the sake of competition. I am Dutch and sure I will be biased towards MVDP but still I am actually more supportive of Van Aert. I guess I often just choose the underdog... Again, for the sake of competition.

 

[dr.eve]

I don't know what your point is. The entire UAE team has been riding at a ridiculous level, so Vine's performance, who has always been fast in the TT, is little surprising. Look at how Almeida almost won the Vuelta. I doubt Pogi destroying Remco in the WCITT, would have been prudent before what they expected (and got) in Kigali and yesterday. Utter carnage. Even UAE must realize when gluttony becomes eccessive. For the conspiracy theorists, perhaps they only gave him a normal bike in the TT to cool things down a bit.

I am not sure this was entirely correct but from what I read Pogacar arrived very late in Kigali, this could affect his state of mind his energy et cetera. And that in itself shows he's human, doped or not, everyone can still be affected by circumstances, diseases and so on. I think Pogacar just didnt prep ideally, yet let's not forget, its not like Pogacar completely failed, still rode a fine TT.

 

[dr.eve]

The thing is, if Pogi wasn't racing, Remco would have won solo most of these hilly races. As he has done before. And Remco is also the sole superior ITT champ.

Yet he would not totally dominate GT's, Paris Roubaix and so on and so on. No one is as all round as Pogacar is.

 

[AmRacer]

Yet he would not totally dominate GT's, Paris Roubaix and so on and so on. No one is as all round as Pogacar is.

Had there be no Remco, Pogi would still not win any ITT. Olympics, WC, European

 

[Revelation]

Cycling has been quickly recovering from doping for some time. There are way less questions and suspicions than 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. Pogi had to answer a lot of questions during his long leadership at the Tour'2021 but now he's simply the GOAT so no questions are needed.

Well yeah, hasn't it been the talking point that things have changed right around covid? Maybe the sport looked at what the past 20 years had done to it's image compared to other sports and changed it's narrative to forget about doping. It's of course disgusting that the approach to trying to catch cheaters doesn't bring nobility to the sport, but rather taints it compared to others, but that's the world we're living in.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Well yeah, hasn't it been the talking point that things have changed right around covid? Maybe the sport looked at what the past 20 years had done to it's image compared to other sports and changed it's narrative to forget about doping. It's of course disgusting that the approach to trying to catch cheaters doesn't bring nobility to the sport, but rather taints it compared to others, but that's the world we're living in.

I remember back in late 2000s/early 2010s there was a major bust (or busts) almost every year like Basso, Ullrich, Landis , Rasmussen, Vinokurov, Ricco, Contador and Armstrong. It was horrible and it's not the image they wanted to have. Image of a clean sport (like they created in tennis) is much more appealing, isn't it? Just let them ride and make a show.

 

[Cookster15]

Analysis of Aderlass athletes who were found to be blood doping showed no biopassport abnormalities, reinfusion seems to just occur at a smaller but more frequent rate as evidenced and as Dr. Fuentes suggested, I imagine there are also other workarounds;

Biological Passport: Have dopers found ways to beat it?

Procycling investigates the cracks that have appeared in the tool credited with cleaning up cycling

www.cyclingnews.com

I understand it is constantly being updated based upon new parameters, but given the hundreds of blood-doping positives in cycling and athletics since it's introduction that weren't also accompanied by AAFs I would suggest it just provides a stumbling block to this method rather than an outright bulwark.

I'm not sure about UAE, perhaps they have found something else more fast-acting, Vingegaard's program does feel like something that preparation is required for, hence him falling off a cliff today and in San Sebastian last time.

Thanks for this. I recall that story. Not sure how many here actually read it closely enough to understand. Basically the biopassport boils down to tracking the 14 markers listed below against a rider's baseline (not sure how that is obtained either).

According to the WADA guidelines, the following blood variables are considered within the ABP Haematological Module:

1. ABPS: Abnormal Blood Profile Score
2. HCT: Haematocrit
3. HGB: Haemoglobin
4. IRF: Immature reticulocyte fraction (for autologous blood doping)
5. MCH: Mean corpuscular haemoglobin
6. MCHC: Mean corpuscular haemoglobin concentration
7. MCV: Mean corpuscular volume
8. OFFS: OFF-hr Score
9. PLT: Platelets
10. RBC: Red blood cell (erythrocyte) count
11. RDW-SD: Red cell distribution width (standard deviation)
12. RET#: Reticulocyte count
13. RET%: Reticulocytes percentage
14. WBC: White Blood Cells

This is very comprehensive. I can't see how EPO micro-dosing would avoid an AAF on all these - if they look closely enough.

In short: Anything which boosts the amount of oxygen that can be transported by the blood risks triggering an adverse finding - if they look closely enough. I am not convinced they do. I am also not convinced they did with Aderlass. e.g. if you don't increase the volume of oxygen that can be transported you don't get a performance boost.

The other factor are lawyers. Lawyers will argue the passport suggests but does not prove blood doping so the burden of proof is set ridiculously high. Once securing an AAF costs too much to satisfy courts the UCI will back off and think, hey as long as sponsors are happy what more can we do?

But as far as I can tell, the linked CN article from 2020 does not really explain what is occurring. It certainly doesn't explain why Pogi went ballistic in 2024.

 

[MortiroloForever]

One of the most succesfull season in cycling history, beating climbing records day in day out, winning races with historical solo breakaways as it was usual... and everything with Gianetti and Matxin behind close doors.

I wrote a message during last Tour about Matxin: this is his "modus operandi" and he is not going to stop. This time they are not in a random team like Saunier Duval, they are under the protection of a massive sponsor which is investing a lot of money to be the best and that's what are they doing, just being men o a mission.

I have to recognize that I don't watch a race where Pogaçar is involved since mid Tour de France. It is so obvious what is going to happen that I don't want to get frustated. I have been cycling fan since I was a kid and I never had the felling of being wasting my time watching a WWF show.

P.D.: I do believe in electronic or motor doping, just take the example of Foliforov in the Giro 2016 ITT.

This is what I wrote a year ago and the time has given me the reason.

I think this is unsustainable. Solo exhibitions day in, day out, they are always the strongest riders, competitive from the beginning of the season untill the last leaves of Autumm, alien performances (like the one who did Pablo Torres on Colle delle Finestre).

There is no limit for UAE.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogi has been building his legacy here for 5 years but still a long way to go to match the clinic GOAT: Froomey!

 

[MortiroloForever]

I didn´t check it out, but I believe that excluding Pogacar, UAE team did more solo performances (by attacking in the leaders group) that the rest of the teams together.

And they didn't win the Giro because Del Toro was literally stupid as he was the strongest rider by far.

By the way, the mexican is doing almost the same end of the season that Hirschi did last year? Where has been the Suisse rider this year? Was he a talented rider and after leaving UAE has become in a not talented cyclist?

Matxin and Gianetti are the worst for cycling. They tried to kill it with Saunier (they were absolutelly convinced that they could won the Tour with Juanjo Cobo or Riccardo Ricco at that time) and they are smashing it now, because the reliability is getting more and more in doubt.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

MODERATOR

about 18 posts from last 12 hours or so deleted.
Post about cyclists, not about each other.

There have been far fewer warnings, and subsequent bans, for personal attacks recently, but that will not necessarily remain the case.

 

[DONCA]

Hahaha! The omerta is alive an well. I made a couple of actually reasonable questions on pogs Instagram about the level, all year a round top form and never getting tired. No insults, no curse words and just honest questions. The comments got removed fast by the UAE/pog socialmedia team. Feels like im done, enjoy the clownshow then humanity. Just wondering if the UCI or UAE get any money from me if I stick to streams? 😂trying not to fund this dictatorship sponsored clownshow anymore.

That's so ridiculous. Suppressing critical voices. [content deleted]

They really go to great lengths to sell us a clean sport. I think the only one who can stop Pog is himself and his conscience. You only have to look at him after his victories – he hardly seems happy anymore. And yes, he's certainly used to winning, but his face speaks for itself. I don't think he can enjoy his victories because he knows he's fooling everyone. He is just a robot and party of the money machine. Maybe one day he will realize it otherwise cycling will be so boring for the next years.

The UAE fool machine works to good.

 

[Stablo]

The point is Ricco was laughable. Nobody was surprised when he was busted for CERA. And pretty sure Saunier Duval wasn’t the only team with dodgy management who are still involved in other teams today?

Well poggies PDBF performance was at least the same level of laughable, than any of Riccos stunts. I was sure he was going to get busted, but I guess that was when the UAE&UCI connection and money came to the picture. The Vampire had learned his lessons and wasn't going to be busted anymore. Beacuse of that we are having the current UAE sh*tshow going on, poggie being the pinnacle of it. Majority of the casual fans are just clapping their hands for the "goat" of socialmedia audience, but the ones that have been around for a bit longer and have their eyes open are disgusted. Yes we have been here before and seen it in the past, but this just some next level piss and stupidity.

 

[AmRacer]

Well poggies PDBF performance was at least the same level of laughable, than any of Riccos stunts. I was sure he was going to get busted, but I guess that was when the UAE&UCI connection and money came to the picture. The Vampire had learned his lessons and wasn't going to be busted anymore. Beacuse of that we are having the current UAE sh*tshow going on, poggie being the pinnacle of it. Majority of the casual fans are just clapping their hands for the "goat" of socialmedia audience, but the ones that have been around for a bit longer and have their eyes open are disgusted. Yes we have been here before and seen it in the past, but this just some next level piss and stupidity.

Compare Remco's results with Pogi's at Worlds and Euros. Who got best results?

 

[Stablo]

That's so ridiculous. Suppressing critical voices. [deleted content]

They really go to great lengths to sell us a clean sport. I think the only one who can stop Pog is himself and his conscience. You only have to look at him after his victories – he hardly seems happy anymore. And yes, he's certainly used to winning, but his face speaks for itself. I don't think he can enjoy his victories because he knows he's fooling everyone. He is just a robot and party of the money machine. Maybe one day he will realize it otherwise cycling will be so boring for the next years.

The UAE fool machine works to good.

I have been seeing the emptiness in his eyes too. Yeah the coming to goals celebrations still come from the memory, but after the race interviews he looks like a joyless robot. Even the after race interview yeasterday and this years Tour on many occasions. His happy when having fun on the bike, training with Urska, the team and friends, but it really looks like his feeling the robot-like expectations too much these days. Because of my work i actually have to be quite good in reading peoples emotions and how they feel. It's different on video than real life, but still it certainly looks like not everything is fine. I think the supercharging after 23/24 winter has taken it's toll.

 

[pastronef]

Pogi has been building his legacy here for 5 years but still a long way to go to match the clinic GOAT: Froomey!

Froomey in his peak would get to the line MINUTES after the UAE train.

 

[ivanic]

The truly amazing thing is nobody seems to be asking questions. It's like a journalistic white flag has been raised over him. I don't take this as a sign, however, that suspicions have lessened from years past, just the hog has devoured all discent. Terrifying.

This is the most worrying thing. There's a guy who's been unstoppable for five years, and for two years he's won every race from February to October, almost always with performances unseen even in the 1990s. He doesn't even stand on the pedals, he doesn't even struggle.
If journalists and the media aren't asking questions today, about these performances, these constant victories, when should they? When will some poor bastard win a half-stage at the TDF?
Let's realize that Froome was bombarded with questions; journalists wanted him to publish his power data in 2015.
At this point, science must make every effort, every effort to discover the trick. Every effort.