Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Divergence]

So how many times do you think normal peds are being used and not being caught? Motors are there and the technology has advanced massively since the first inside the tube battery was made in the late 90s. Even since the bust of Femke Van den Driessche almost ten years back, the size of batteries have gone down and power up. And this is only the technology that is publicly available. You have a smartphone, how did they look over 20 years back? So how can you be sure that something is not being used in a UAE owned Colnago, when there are also the monster watts, attacks, UCI sponsoring and never dropping form. I also think that the UAE team with Gianetti, Matxin and other fraudsters wouldn't have any problem morally using some sophisticated e-assistance.

You can think/believe whatever you want. The truth is that there is zero evidence of him using e-bikes.
I believe that there is a huge difference between PEDs and using motors. Sure, PEDs are still being used and people are rarely getting caught. Also, there are many procedures sportsmen are undertaking which fall into the so called gray area. And, sure, I believe Pog is fully utilizing everything at his disposal.
I also believe that Pog is the best cyclist ever and probably top 3 sportsmen ever (although this is difficult to judge).
I cannot reliably say how would the relative dominance levels compare if everybody were panyagua, but my song believe is that Pog would be head and shoulders above everybody regardless.

 

[SorelyBoy]

So how many times do you think normal peds are being used and not being caught? Motors are there and the technology has advanced massively since the first inside the tube battery was made in the late 90s. Even since the bust of Femke Van den Driessche almost ten years back, the size of batteries have gone down and power up. And this is only the technology that is publicly available. You have a smartphone, how did they look over 20 years back? So how can you be sure that something is not being used in a UAE owned Colnago, when there are also the monster watts, attacks, UCI sponsoring and never dropping form. I also think that the UAE team with Gianetti, Matxin and other fraudsters wouldn't have any problem morally using some sophisticated e-assistance.

I mean, isn’t it obvious by now? They probably don’t even need the PEDs. And again, it’s the unexpected one off isolated and unexpected drops in performance that give the game away. To merely argue that it’s ‘incontheivable’ is to ignore the empirical evidence and the factual context.

 

[Stablo]

You can think/believe whatever you want. The truth is that there is zero evidence of him using e-bikes.
I believe that there is a huge difference between PEDs and using motors. Sure, PEDs are still being used and people are rarely getting caught. Also, there are many procedures sportsmen are undertaking which fall into the so called gray area. And, sure, I believe Pog is fully utilizing everything at his disposal.
I also believe that Pog is the best cyclist ever and probably top 3 sportsmen ever (although this is difficult to judge).
I cannot reliably say how would the relative dominance levels compare if everybody were panyagua, but my song believe is that Pog would be head and shoulders above everybody regardless.

Pog wouldn't be head and shoulders above everyone if they all were riding on paniaqua. The team behind him and his transformation first after joining UAE and then again in 23/24 winter is enough to judge on that. So just another one who thinks his goldenboy can't be cheating on a higher level than others, oh the memories from Armstrong era. In a state sponsored team lead by possible the dirtiest backround team in cyclings history, well everyone is allowed to believe what they want.

 

[SorelyBoy]

You can think/believe whatever you want. The truth is that there is zero evidence of him using e-bikes.
I believe that there is a huge difference between PEDs and using motors. Sure, PEDs are still being used and people are rarely getting caught. Also, there are many procedures sportsmen are undertaking which fall into the so called gray area. And, sure, I believe Pog is fully utilizing everything at his disposal.
I also believe that Pog is the best cyclist ever and probably top 3 sportsmen ever (although this is difficult to judge).
I cannot reliably say how would the relative dominance levels compare if everybody were panyagua, but my song believe is that Pog would be head and shoulders above everybody regardless.

I was you once. Twenty years ago. I thought Armstrong was the greatest living sportsman. Then I got my eyes opened. And Pogacar is making what Armstrong did look like amateur hour. There’s not a cat in hell’s chance any of it is real and it sure as hell isn’t sport.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

No.
Even if I knew, I wouldn't be stupid enough to post it here, sorry.

But hey if you want to know more about hidden motors you can contact the monegasque company hps.
Very friendly people.

The World’s lightest e-bike system :: HPS Sarl

HPS design and develop world-class technology using Formula 1 engineering fused with a passion for cycling.

hps-bike.com

Or even better just come to Monaco like this you can also meet Pogi in his fav bakery

I've trekked a lot in the Alps but never been to the Maritime Alps. Maybe I should to go there, do some nice hikes and ask Pogi what's really going on.

 

[hrotha]

I was you once. Twenty years ago. I thought Armstrong was the greatest living sportsman. Then I got my eyes opened. And Pogacar is making what Armstrong did look like amateur hour. There’s not a cat in hell’s chance any of it is real and it sure as hell isn’t sport.

Why are you replying to "I think Pogačar's performance is adequately explained by PEDs" with "you're so naïve to think Pogačar is clean"

 

[DONCA]

Talking about Armstrong. Look at this video.

What was he always pressing under his saddle? Did his bum itch?

The motor allegedly used by Lance Armstrong to cheat

The latest scandal to surround ex-cyclist Lance Armstrong is the accusation of having used technological doping during some of the sport's biggest events. The American was strippe

www.marca.com

 

[kingjr]

Talking about Armstrong. Look at this video.

What was he always pressing under his saddle? Did his bum itch?

The motor allegedly used by Lance Armstrong to cheat

The latest scandal to surround ex-cyclist Lance Armstrong is the accusation of having used technological doping during some of the sport's biggest events. The American was strippe

www.marca.com

Probably the same thing he's "pressing" here at 5:32

View: https://youtu.be/QBSUc6yV-rA?si=uYWMzYEpV4g7voHb&t=331

 

[topcat]

Oh, no. Not the moto doping again .

Can we sign a petition to bring Benotti and a few of the other legends back to the forum of love?

 

[topcat]

Any moderator is one because they have been a long standing member of the forum, which will only be the case if they have a high level of interest in the sport and something to say about it. Unless acting as a moderator (and it is usually very clear if we are), we have exactly the same rights to express an opinion here as any one else.

I'm a Nibali fan. Suppose I was a mod during Nibali's heyday. If I treated Nibali fans better than anti-Nibali posters, then that would be wrong.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I'm a Nibali fan. Suppose I was a mod during Nibali's heyday. If I treated Nibali fans better than anti-Nibali posters, then that would be wrong.

Of course it would be, but nobody is even suggesting that that is what is at play here. Moderators can still have preferences, but would be expected to put those aside when adjudicating on posts. Of course, if anyone did believe that a moderator were acting out of bias, it shouldn't be raised on the public forum, but challenged in PM or addressed to an admin or to community@futurenet.com.

The post I quoted seemed to say that becoming a moderator excludes somebody from being confident about their opinions when posting in a manner when their moderator status is irrelevant.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Which leaves us wondering how you know about it...

Because some of us have friends/family members that are directly involved in cycling or cyclists themselves. Since I was born (50 years ago) I've had direct connections to cycling.

My father's best friend who died from complications from doping was a former neo-pro in the Merckx era.
One of his other friends was a muckity muck for a long time in Swiss cycling

My best friend has been a race announcer for the Tour de France and ASO events for about 15+ years and still is working as an announcer.

He sent me a personalized signed white jersey from Remco as a favor because I have stage IV cancer.

I've never brought anything I've heard from them to this board because they'd stop trusting me. My best friend mostly sends me photos before races from Le Tour and other cycling events. Occasionally I also get archery photos from the Olympics as he also does coverage there and has been since Vancouver 2012.

 

[Divergence]

Pog wouldn't be head and shoulders above everyone if they all were riding on paniaqua. The team behind him and his transformation first after joining UAE and then again in 23/24 winter is enough to judge on that. So just another one who thinks his goldenboy can't be cheating on a higher level than others, oh the memories from Armstrong era. In a state sponsored team lead by possible the dirtiest backround team in cyclings history, well everyone is allowed to believe what they want.

How is that enough to judge anything? How would you know how other would theoretically perform? It is a senseless discussion anyway...
Armstrong's cheating was not on a higher level than everybody. They were just more dedicated as a team. Nothing other teams could not do.

I was you once. Twenty years ago. I thought Armstrong was the greatest living sportsman. Then I got my eyes opened. And Pogacar is making what Armstrong did look like amateur hour. There’s not a cat in hell’s chance any of it is real and it sure as hell isn’t sport.

Well, I do not like Armstrong's personality either, but he was a damn good sportsmen. Drugs or no drugs...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Because some of us have friends/family members that are directly involved in cycling or cyclists themselves. Since I was born (50 years ago) I've had direct connections to cycling.

My father's best friend who died from complications from doping was a former neo-pro in the Merckx era.
One of his other friends was a muckity muck for a long time in Swiss cycling

My best friend has been a race announcer for the Tour de France and ASO events for about 15+ years and still is working as an announcer.

He sent me a personalized signed white jersey from Remco as a favor because I have stage IV cancer.

I've never brought anything I've heard from them to this board because they'd stop trusting me. My best friend mostly sends me photos before races from Le Tour and other cycling events. Occasionally I also get archery photos from the Olympics as he also does coverage there and has been since Vancouver 2012.

OK: I wasn't the one doubting Donca's word when he replied with his source of knowledge.
All the best with your health issues.

 

[Stablo]

How is that enough to judge anything? How would you know how other would theoretically perform? It is a senseless discussion anyway...
Armstrong's cheating was not on a higher level than everybody. They were just more dedicated as a team. Nothing other teams could not do.

Well, I do not like Armstrong's personality either, but he was a damn good sportsmen. Drugs or no drugs...

Yes if you don't get why pogster is very suspect, then it indeed is a senseless discussion..
Btw. Lance indeed was more dedicated also on the peds department and had protection from the UCI. It's like we are now also rewriting facts too here. It has all been out in the open for more than ten years now.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Now as to Pogacar.

Here are the "problems"

Problem 1. https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/1...ateau-de-beille-tour-de-france-2024-stage-15/

Take a look at the chart of all-time climbing performances that is included in the article. Understand I am taking these figures at face value. As someone with a MS in Sports Analytics a massive red flag went up.

A few times people have mentioned Remco's performance on Plateau De Beille as suspicious yet his performance could be explained by the apspects that everyone ascribes to improvement such as technology improvements in the equipment and nutriaional improvements (keytones). Remco is in line with Pantani's performances and top 40 performances all time. He had previously shown the ability of doing 6.5 w/kg in Norway in 2022 on a 30 minute climb.

Irrespective of one's beliefs regarding Remco, the 6.98 w/kg for nearly 40 minute should stand out because it's far above any trendline and smashes any doped performance of Pantani. If you've looked at as many linear regressions as I have we're always examing patterns and looking to rationalize/explain anomalies.

As I mentioned my position is based on the accuracy of the data. I'm well aware there are many factors that can affect performance that may not be reflected in the data. Nevertheless, it should stick out

Problem 2. Tadej Pogacar electing to withdraw from the Olympics should raise a lot of questions and no I've never bought the story that it was due his partner not being selected to the women's team.

Here you have someone that is trying to win everything in the sport who competes in the Tokyo Olympics yet strangely does not compete in the Paris Olympics after setting climbing records on back to back days including the Plateau de Beille climb.

While pros haven't been always allowed at the Olympics, I have a hard time buying the suggestion that the Olympics aren't important.

Problem 3. Weird interview regarding rebreathers that Pogacar gave where he denied knowing what they were and then later admitted he was using the rebreathers, which seems to have been scrubbed from Youtube. (if someone can find that interview it would be greatly appreciated. )

All I have is this video from youtube: What Is Carbon Monoxide Rebreathing & Why Is Everyone Talking About It?

As an aside I didn't even get into Mauro Gianetti /Maxtin or even UAE realted issues. They are on their own would requir a separate post to discuss their stories.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah the Olympic DNS is so suss man.

 

[Salvarani]

I'm a Nibali fan. Suppose I was a mod during Nibali's heyday. If I treated Nibali fans better than anti-Nibali posters, then that would be wrong.

@Red Rick

Voodoo or no voodoo?

 

[Divergence]

Yes if you don't get why pogster is very suspect, then it indeed is a senseless discussion..
Btw. Lance indeed was more dedicated also on the peds department and had protection from the UCI. It's like we are now also rewriting facts too here. It has all been out in the open for more than ten years now.

Hh, I think we established that Pog is suspect. If you go back a few posts I clearly wrote that I think he is using at least grey area stuff, but maybe also outright prohibited stuff. The discussion was regarding if Pog would be as dominant if everybody was riding panyagua. But I guess you had already forgotten.
Lance indeed had a positive test swept under the rug, but others were just as able to use the same drugs and doping program as Lance. But some were not as talented and other were not as studious I guess. Also, maybe some other tests were swept under the rug and we just do not know about them. The truth is that his competitors are acknowledging that he was just better that them and nobody relevant is screaming bloody murder.

 

[Ripper]

Yes. This was your reply:



Of course, but that isn't what was being claimed. What was being claimed was he showed no suffering at all. I've refuted that.

Without knowing his heart rate the entire bold is hugely subjective - we can only go by facial expressions and his breathing.

I recall Pogacar appeared to be visibly suffering on several occasions since last season. One example was when he won at Isola 2000 closing down Jorgenson - he showed obvious suffering after the finish, breathing hard and hunched over his bars. I don't think he could have gone much harder that day? Then there was Hautacam this year - below is the video (from 6'53"). Not suffering?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F7c2VbGj-8



[content deleted]If you have an issue with other posters , please use the report button and both mods will look.



Another straw-man. I never claimed I was stating unquestionable facts - just providing counterpoints to other posters' points of view which were written as if they were irrefutable facts- including the OP to this thread 5 years ago. The onus is on Pogacar's detractors to back up their statements. Are moderators not allowed to share their opinions too ?

The entire reason I posted this morning was to provide some counterpoints. Again, to be clear, I am not saying Pogacar is clean - how could he be with his numbers and season long strength? But accusing people who dare disagree with the narrative with "hilarity" is actually an attempt to avoid proper debate.

Okay! So, did you think that I implied that Pog not suffering at all during his solo?

 

[Cookster15]

Yeah the Olympic DNS is so suss man.

Maybe. But I think many would put that down to Pogacar being tired after the Tour? He did after all just complete the first Giro-Tour double in 26 years. Maybe it was suss but I think he earned the right to take a break?

The Olympics road race on August 3 was only 13 days after the Tour finished (at the Nice TT, also a maximum effort). Pogacar had also been on top form since March 2 (SB) and he also had one more realistic* big objective to recover for after the Tour - Lombardia.

*GdL was a more realistic objective as it allowed time to recover and then be ready for one last maximum performance.

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe. But I think many would put that down to Pogacar being tired after the Tour? He did after all just complete the first Giro-Tour double in 26 years. Maybe it was suss but I think he earned the right to take a break?

The Olympics road race on August 3 was only 13 days after the Tour finished (at the Nice TT, also a maximum effort). Pogacar had also been on top form since March 2 (SB) and he also had one more realistic* big objective to recover for after the Tour - Lombardia.

*GdL was a more realistic objective as it allowed time to recover and then be ready for one last maximum performance.

He raced the 2023 WC in a much worse state. Besides, even if tired, there wouldn't have been that much wrong with giving a long shot at this race anyway.

 

[Stablo]

Hh, I think we established that Pog is suspect. If you go back a few posts I clearly wrote that I think he is using at least grey area stuff, but maybe also outright prohibited stuff. The discussion was regarding if Pog would be as dominant if everybody was riding panyagua. But I guess you had already forgotten.
Lance indeed had a positive test swept under the rug, but others were just as able to use the same drugs and doping program as Lance. But some were not as talented and other were not as studious I guess. Also, maybe some other tests were swept under the rug and we just do not know about them. The truth is that his competitors are acknowledging that he was just better that them and nobody relevant is screaming bloody murder.

Yes indeed and I already said he imho considering all we know he certainly would not be, but I guess you have already forgotten. No one relevant is/was screaming murder, yeah right if you weren't following that time yet. How do you think he got caught after all? Landis, Hamilton etc. all irrelevant I guess. Fact is in that case as it is here with pog, that on a level playing field others would have been a lot closer or beaten him on severel occasions. The transformation after cancer fir Lance was nothing short of a miracle and poggies things are even higher on the scale of not beliavable.

 

[Cookster15]

Besides, even if tired, there wouldn't have been that much wrong with giving a long shot at this race anyway.

Fair call. But if I am in Pogacar's shoes I am thinking I might need a rest. A Google search tells me this:

Yes, Tadej Pogačar did say he was tired after the 2024 Tour de France. He publicly admitted to feeling exhausted during the final week and stated that he had doubts about his ability to finish the race

To me when a rider has been strong all season and then wins the first Giro-Tour double in 26 years against his big rival who defeated him the previous two years I give benefit of the doubt he would be super tired.

Of course this could have been a cover to deflect for other suss reasons. Then again I don't know? Maybe if and when the 'big day'comes we are all wise in hindsight.

 

[Cookster15]

Besides, even if tired, there wouldn't have been that much wrong with giving a long shot at this race anyway.

Perhaps. But this raises another question: Are doping controls at the Olympics stricter than other races? Or is it something about timing of his "program" after peaking for the Tour and risking detection?