Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Lorzenz08]

I have never understood the argument of people saying Pogi isn't a generational talent because he didn't dominate when he was 18 years old.
He is already the youngest TdF winner in like 100 years, but OH MY GOD he didn't dominate when he was 18...

Seixas didn't dominate when he was 17yo ! What next is it going to be ? If you don't dominate when you are 16yo, it means you are not a generational talent ?

 

[dr.eve]

Guys, let's stop asking questions and just embrace this magnificent era of superheroes/metahumans/mutants/whatever. They are simply that good: not just Teddy (the alpha of superheroes) but also Van der Poel, Vingegaard, Evenepoel...

I mean people don't suspect demigods (like Superman or Wonder Woman) of doping. It would be ridiculous.

Nahh pass.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Its hard to do doping discussion without numbers,lmaoo.cycling debate still stuck in old ways.this feels like basketball debate 20 yaers ago.

 

[Squire]

Seixas didn't dominate when he was 17yo !

He did, actually.

 

[Extinction]

I still remember the story about a Slovenian talent scout at a junior race in Slovenia. He showed up when the circuit race was already on and got into the director's car. At this point there was a break composed of 17-18 year-old riders, iirc, when from behind the 15 year-old Pogacar suddenly appeared. Looking out the rear window, the talent scout said something to the effect of let's hope the young wipper snapper catches up. Only to be told by the others in the car, catches up? He is about to lap them! At the same time, however, Pogacar didn't dominate the international junior field. He did not come close to winning Junior Worlds, for example. And while he did go on to win the Tour d'Avenir, there wasn't any indication at the time that he would become the "new Merckx" until Saroni got word of him and then hooking up with Gianetti at UAE.

 

[aphronesis]

Most of the posts are pure or at least partially creationism, continuing to elaborate about a crime, a crime nobody is even accused of let alone convicted of, and the list of co conspirators is endless.
Bora knows that Pogacar is dirty but need to gently, secretly negotiate with UCI in a backroom in seclusion.

ITA knows but are staying quiet.. Because..

Races( dozens, dozens) of races that don't use ITA are also in on the conspiracy and are not even going to accuse UAE, Pogacar of a crime for one of multiple reasons fear, payment or wanting to push the Pogacar world domination narrative.

In the US we have a popular game show named Wheel of Fortune, based on a roulette wheel which is arbitrarily subdivided with dollar values, misc prizes and penalties, including bankrupt and lose your turn.
The idea that a roulette wheel with Pogacar accomplishments since @2017 and those are his positives, which is tests from wins, podiums, random and then out of competition tests. All those on the roulette wheel.. and many posts are of some premise that Pogacar continues to spin the wheel and he has never been caught for anything, by anyone, anywhere since 2017 and it's some hypersonic version of omerta.
Can someone, an organization be that lucky?
Can a rider in the post Armstrong spotlight really avoid everything since 2017? Sounds sort of sci-fi that would be possible.
Tadej Pogacar has not been accused of ,or convicted of anything. Sounds more somber, sobering. He is not a criminal, that's a fake news, it didn't happen, but much of the discussion is as if it's a given that he is guilty of something. And Pogacar is certainly not complaining or upset with due process, he has happily lived with due process results since 2017.

Well given military actions, for example, within the world and interior, why can’t cycling dope away?

 

[Rob5091]

If anyone is feeling brave, there's a great deal of digging to do on UAE and Slovenian contacts going back a whiles.

 

[aphronesis]

Less brave than focused.

 

[AlpRaid]

I still remember the story about a Slovenian talent scout at a junior race in Slovenia. He showed up when the circuit race was already on and got into the director's car. At this point there was a break composed of 17-18 year-old riders, iirc, when from behind the 15 year-old Pogacar suddenly appeared. Looking out the rear window, the talent scout said something to the effect of let's hope the young wipper snapper catches up. Only to be told by the others in the car, catches up? He is about to lap them! At the same time, however, Pogacar didn't dominate the international junior field. He did not come close to winning Junior Worlds, for example. And while he did go on to win the Tour d'Avenir, there wasn't any indication at the time that he would become the "new Merckx" until Saroni got word of him and then hooking up with Gianetti at UAE.

I would even suggest that pog is (probably) talented.

for me it is much more about arguably the best all round cyclist in 2023, suddenly improving by 10+ % seemingly over his winter break and now being literally inhuman for the last two years. never any signs of tiring, or having to let the wheel of an opponent go -- not once!

and that this has happened while riding for Dracula and sports washing UAE, makes me first want to puke, and next add an asterisk to every result he has.

Meanwhile, had Pog not been around or at this level, Remco would have had the most amazing results of the fall, doubling at both Worlds and Euros (as he did at the Olympics), and winning Lombardia. However, I doubt there would be 480 pages in the clinic about it, because he is basically showing exactly the same level and realistic progression from when he raced in juniors.

 

[Lorzenz08]

He did, actually.

Year 2023 ? Not really, 25th WC, multiple 6th-15th place in Junior races

 

[Extinction]

I would even suggest that pog is (probably) talented.

for me it is much more about arguably the best all round cyclist in 2023, suddenly improving by 10+ % seemingly over his winter break and now being literally inhuman for the last two years. never any signs of tiring, or having to let the wheel of an opponent go -- not once!

and that this has happened while riding for Dracula and sports washing UAE, makes me first want to puke, and next add an asterisk to every result he has.

Meanwhile, had Pog not been around or at this level, Remco would have had the most amazing results of the fall, doubling at both Worlds and Euros (as he did at the Olympics), and winning Lombardia. However, I doubt there would be 480 pages in the clinic about it, because he is basically showing exactly the same level and realistic progression from when he raced in juniors.

Yea, leaving Remco out of it, because that's not really the point, the level Pog reached over the last two years raises eyebrows or should. Not because he isn't super talented, because I think he is, but because he maintains an unseen level in modern cycling that simply defies logic. We know the whole field, let alone the highly gifted relatively speaking, is much better trained. Consequently, nobody should be able to dominate from March to October period. Back in Merckx's day they all raced too much to reach the peaks of today. So relative strength came to the fore. By contrast, today you should see much higher peaks, which you do, but no rider should be head and shoulders above the rest for an entire season. It is a physiologcal mystery. But that's what Gianetti, of all people, has achieved with UAE backing in Pogacar. I cannot understand frankly why a super talented rider can't achieve with say a 25 milion budget what someone else can with a 60 milion one, all else being equal, other than more sophisticated doping to put it bluntly and a system that caters to the highest bider. It would be nice to turn the clock back to the 80s, but the sport, and sport in general, has merely become a transactional phenomenon.

 

[BubbaChuck]

lmao,remco.look at the numbers and well see,if he is natural talent.hint,needs just as much help as armstrong,lmaoo.pog is in different class to chumps,but just look at the numbers.no need for family gossip.

 

[Bronstein]

Year 2023 ? Not really, 25th WC, multiple 6th-15th place in Junior races

He actually had 5 wins and 10 podium places - https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/paul-seixas/2023

Pogacar had 0 wins and 2 podium places in 2015 - https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/tadej-pogacar/2015

 

[Bellajo]

The one caveat in any discussion about Pogacar, De Toro etc, is that if they are riding for a team run by Gianetti and Maxtin. If you don't know the implications of that, in the context of the history of professional cycling, you must have started following cycling in the past few months.

 

[Lorzenz08]

He actually had 5 wins and 10 podium places - https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/paul-seixas/2023

Pogacar had 0 wins and 2 podium places in 2015 - https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/tadej-pogacar/2015

Still far from dominating.
Other cyclists have dominated way more at age 17 than Seixas. Does it means Seixas is less talented than them ?

 

[Lorzenz08]

Yea, leaving Remco out of it, because that's not really the point, the level Pog reached over the last two years raises eyebrows or should. Not because he isn't super talented, because I think he is, but because he maintains an unseen level in modern cycling that simply defies logic. We know the whole field, let alone the highly gifted relatively speaking, is much better trained. Consequently, nobody should be able to dominate from March to October period. Back in Merckx's day they all raced too much to reach the peaks of today. So relative strength came to the fore. By contrast, today you should see much higher peaks, which you do, but no rider should be head and shoulders above the rest for an entire season. It is a physiologcal mystery. But that's what Gianetti, of all people, has achieved with UAE backing in Pogacar. I cannot understand frankly why a super talented rider can't achieve with say a 25 milion budget what someone else can with a 60 milion one, all else being equal, other than more sophisticated doping to put it bluntly and a system that caters to the highest bider. It would be nice to turn the clock back to the 80s, but the sport, and sport in general, has merely become a transactional phenomenon.

Completely disagree.

If tomorrow, God forbid, Pogacar dies in an accident.

I would bet big money that UAE or Gianetti wouldn't produce an " other Pogacar " any time soon.
So the defining factor is not with them.

 

[SorelyBoy]

The one caveat in any discussion about Pogacar, De Toro etc, is that if they are riding for a team run by Gianetti and Maxtin. If you don't know the implications of that, in the context of the history of professional cycling, you must have started following cycling in the past few months.

This. And because of this there will always be a planet sized asterisk against Pogacar’s legacy. There just will. *Especially* as (let’s be honest) Pogacar’s performances have been ridiculous. Like beyond amazing. Just a coincidence? Even if he’s never popped, at the very least Pogacar will be inextricably linked to two people with, to say the least, rather shameful and dubious histories. And it’ll be his own fault because he has agency in his career. He could have chosen to do otherwise.

 

[Unchained]

The one caveat in any discussion about Pogacar, De Toro etc, is that if they are riding for a team run by Gianetti and Maxtin. If you don't know the implications of that, in the context of the history of professional cycling, you must have started following cycling in the past few months.

I read this and started laughing so hard I wet myself! Riders who are@25 and under don't know who Eddy Merckx is, don't know Indurain, Lemond, Hinault, Armstrong.. Why would they?
They never used a payphone or watched TV using an antenna. Never looked anything up in an encyclopedia.. Why would they!
I follow when Del Toro goes for coffee, but before he won l'Avenier he was a kid from Ensenada I saw riding by himself on the Ojos Negros bypass wearing a kit from Monex a team that I had never heard of.. Why would I?
I consider myself a cycling fan I knew ( know) very little about Maxtin or Gianetti..why would I ? As racers they are inconsequential, never made my highlights reel.
Your premise sounds like a bad set up for anyone signing with Israel Premier Tech. They didn't do their homework?
Or for that matter if you do root research how could anyone sign with an American, French, Belgian, English team given the brutal history all those countries have, riders are not morally void, they are most often just young men who ride bicycles not history buffs that somehow at 19 or 20 years old dig into Gianetti's past and have an opinion on his life's decisions, right or wrong.
These methods of personal processing are not borderline ridiculous.
Take a moment for an exercise in empathy. Isaac Del Toro riding and racing a bike in a small seaside town famous for tuna, sardines, seaweed and fish tacos should have through divine intervention been aware of what Maxtin and Gianetti represent in the greater scope of bicycle racing history? Really. Del Toro characterized as uneducated, naive about the ways of the professional cycling circumstances.. Really?
Del Toro ,like the rest of us should view the @20-30 people in charge of the biggest cycling budgets currently as non factors, place holders, guys who have the job because Fabio Cancellara, George Hindcappie, Valverde, are working somewhere else.. These guys are just place holders, not having any historical significance. Do you really think that Rolf Aldag or Matt White will be multiple webpages about cycling management legacy?
I feel disappointed that I can't rattle off the top ten names on the wall of fame at the World Harmonica Museum or I am not up to date on last 5 or 6 winners of British Bake Off competition.. Who played the tambourine on a Bob Dylan song from 1967. Gianetti and others are bit players, not worth really paying attention to.. and might is right.. Anyone UAE puts in charge will succeed, it's a given.. If you just went from Eddy era to present, the people behind the cycling scenes are not known historical figures with few exceptions..

 

[Extinction]

Completely disagree.

If tomorrow, God forbid, Pogacar dies in an accident.

I would bet big money that UAE or Gianetti wouldn't produce an " other Pogacar " any time soon.
So the defining factor is not with them.

And as I've said before, put Pogacar on a lower budget outfit, one not run by Gianetti and Maxtin, and you don't get the Tadej we've seen. So the defining factor is this singular combination, one that speaks of a history that isn't on your side.