Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[dr.eve]

I think this requires its own thread. We do not know if its linked to pogi and Gianetti.

On another note, it suggests the blood passport is maybe not that conclusive and hey old fashioned blood doping with a twist is still a possibility.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I assume if this synthetic hemoglobin is 40 times more effective at transporting oxygen then VO2 max and FTP would be hugely boosted depending how much the rider used. But I am not sure the biological passport actually tracks oxygen carrying capacity, just the blood component which carries the oxygen? Not sure the bio-passport can distinguish between natural and synthetic hemoglobin?

And on the 'very well known rider' I'd be surprised if it wasn't his manager, doctor or team rather than the rider himself who approached these guys?

If the bio passport can't detect such a strong boost then it's pretty much useless nowadays (it definitely wasn't the case in 2010s during the great "slowdown").

 

[Low is rhe new high]

If the bio passport can't detect such a strong boost then it's pretty much useless nowadays (it definitely wasn't the case in 2010s during the great "slowdown").

The biological passport is hopefully updated and adopted to current situation? It should be possible to test for new artificial hemoglobin variants.

 

[BubbaChuck]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2003076176836010085

View: https://x.com/i/status/2003076176836010085

 

[BubbaChuck]

there is no twist needed,you can just look at watts they are pushing,lmaoo.if thye can explain increase in numbers in last 3 years,thye can explain everything.and this true for whole peleton.we are not talking msll bumps here,thye went from 6 to 7 watts basically.

 

[dr.eve]

The biological passport is hopefully updated and adopted to current situation? It should be possible to test for new artificial hemoglobin variants.

I would hope so too, though I would not be surprised if it isn't. New tests are not always easy to develop, and if they are, sometimes they are costly and this can be a factor in what do you take a long in your testpanel and what not.

On top of that, the article linked previously also says it has a very narrow detection period due to its short halflife. That could make it rather useless to put in the bloodpassport. You may test for it but if in practice you can not actually detect it in most cases than it just gives an inaccurate image of fairness.

 

[Lorzenz08]

A lot of people are discounting the fact that Pogi won Tour de l'Avenir with 0 team support at 19.. he literally had 0 teammates.

This simple fact shows that his margin of progression from that point was off the charts

 

[Bronstein]

He had five teammates - https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2018/startlist

 

[AlpRaid]

He had five teammates - https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2018/startlist

And he chose to sign with the dirtiest manager in cycling.

Why would you do that?

 

[Rob5091]

And he chose to sign with the dirtiest manager in cycling.

Why would you do that?

Bahrain and UAE had connections to Slovenian cycling clubs back then, so it's not surprising that Pogi ened up with one of the two.

 

[BubbaChuck]

how much has to pog improve to realize,what you are dealing with.

 

[KoopaCycling]

I saw a post of someone about this thread on the remco thread is the next merckx thread.
Not sure if i posted this there and it was removed or i forgot to press the post button.
But perhaps it's better I post this here to begin with.

Your post in the remco thread is bit weird.

You mention his clinic thread, not his main thread. It's only natural for people to be talking about Pogacar in his clinic thread. It's a thread were people discuss possible doping use.
It ain't a good sign that all riders seem to be able to surpass the records of known doped riders with seeming ease. But Pogacar more than anyone looks like a red flag.

From his entourage (Gianetti), from some of his comments denying involvement with carbon monoxide when his team acknowledged it's use a day later, from his riding style, ... .
It would be strange indeed if people don't have questions.

I'm not sure if remco rides clean but if i was betting man, i definitely would not place my bets on Pogacar riding clean.
Now maybe he never gets caught, or it's covered with the mantle of love like they did for Anquetil, Merxkx, Indurain, ... .
But him riding clean seems near impossible to me.

 

[Cookster15]

Suspicion of Pogacar is completely understandable knowing his off the charts performances and the history of cycling - and not just because of his association with Giannetti and UAE's resources. I can't imagine he would not be doping to achieve these historically incredible levels.

However, based upon the watts / kg against historical performances in the EPO era I seriously doubt any of the top GC contenders are riding clean. e.g. In the 2024 Tour, Remco also beat Marco Pantani's unfettered EPO fueled PdB record by over a minute (6.4W/Kg for 42 minutes).

Pantani's Alpe d'Huez record wasn't challenged during the Sky era whom many (most?) had accused of doping since 2012. But the AdH record looks very vulnerable now. Before 2020 it was generally accepted that 6 watts per kilo on >30 minute climbs was the ceiling for clean performances. Even during Cadel Evans time he was accused of doping and yet Evans's best climbing performance was below 6 watts / kg.

But really what this comes down to is unfair advantages. IMO that's why some Remco fans come to this thread. In 2024 it was Vingegaard fans. In 2022 and 2023 it was Pogacar fans who came to the Clinic to reconcile how their rider was beaten at the biggest race in the sport. It can actually be quite amusing after crucial MTF or TT stages in the Tour how fans of losing riders flood to the Clinic to protest. But that is why we have the Clinic!

To me what has happened since 2020 is still explained by an arms race. Visma -> UAE -> Visma -> UAE. Red Bull have the financial resources to make it a three way race. Watch Remco and Lipowitz next year in case Red Bull gives them wings!

 

[meat puppet]

Agree it's an arms race but IMHO relative unfair advantages creating stupidly uncompetitive races do not cover it, because absolutely unreal performances (and juvenile celebration thereof) rub me the wrong way to begin with.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Suspicion of Pogacar is completely understandable knowing his off the charts performances and the history of cycling - and not just because of his association with Giannetti and UAE's resources. I can't imagine he would not be doping to achieve these historically incredible levels.

However, based upon the watts / kg against historical performances in the EPO era I seriously doubt any of the top GC contenders are riding clean. e.g. In the 2024 Tour, Remco also beat Marco Pantani's unfettered EPO fueled PdB record by over a minute (6.4W/Kg for 42 minutes).

Pantani's Alpe d'Huez record wasn't challenged during the Sky era whom many (most?) had accused of doping since 2012. But the AdH record looks very vulnerable now. Before 2020 it was generally accepted that 6 watts per kilo on >30 minute climbs was the ceiling for clean performances. Even during Cadel Evans time he was accused of doping and yet Evans's best climbing performance was below 6 watts / kg.

But really what this comes down to is unfair advantages. IMO that's why some Remco fans come to this thread. In 2024 it was Vingegaard fans. In 2022 and 2023 it was Pogacar fans who came to the Clinic to reconcile how their rider was beaten at the biggest race in the sport. It can actually be quite amusing after crucial MTF or TT stages in the Tour how fans of losing riders flood to the Clinic to protest. But that is why we have the Clinic!

To me what has happened since 2020 is still explained by an arms race. Visma -> UAE -> Visma -> UAE. Red Bull have the financial resources to make it a three way race. Watch Remco and Lipowitz next year in case Red Bull gives them wings!

There have been questionable performances, but no effortless multiyear all season all terrain annihilation that we've never seen before. Get ready for 2026, because I'm pretty sure that the Mexican wonderkid who never won anything until he got in touch with Gianetti is on a similar program.

The TdF always raised eyebrows, but at least you could enjoy the rest of the season. That's over now.

 

[YellowSocks]

Suspicion of Pogacar is completely understandable knowing his off the charts performances and the history of cycling - and not just because of his association with Giannetti and UAE's resources. I can't imagine he would not be doping to achieve these historically incredible levels.

However, based upon the watts / kg against historical performances in the EPO era I seriously doubt any of the top GC contenders are riding clean. e.g. In the 2024 Tour, Remco also beat Marco Pantani's unfettered EPO fueled PdB record by over a minute (6.4W/Kg for 42 minutes).

Pantani's Alpe d'Huez record wasn't challenged during the Sky era whom many (most?) had accused of doping since 2012. But the AdH record looks very vulnerable now. Before 2020 it was generally accepted that 6 watts per kilo on >30 minute climbs was the ceiling for clean performances. Even during Cadel Evans time he was accused of doping and yet Evans's best climbing performance was below 6 watts / kg.

But really what this comes down to is unfair advantages. IMO that's why some Remco fans come to this thread. In 2024 it was Vingegaard fans. In 2022 and 2023 it was Pogacar fans who came to the Clinic to reconcile how their rider was beaten at the biggest race in the sport. It can actually be quite amusing after crucial MTF or TT stages in the Tour how fans of losing riders flood to the Clinic to protest. But that is why we have the Clinic!

To me what has happened since 2020 is still explained by an arms race. Visma -> UAE -> Visma -> UAE. Red Bull have the financial resources to make it a three way race. Watch Remco and Lipowitz next year in case Red Bull gives them wings!

I've been watching some vintage cycling races over the last few days (well, some races from 2022, but they really felt vintage to me). While I recognize all the riders (who, in my opinion, aren't racing by the rules either), I don't recognize Pogacar. What, unable to get in the breakaway? Six riders following his attack? A bad day? It was even a little frustrating, because I'm now used to the new Pogacar. Back then, he was still a normal rider. Probably the best, but normal.

When people came here after La Flèche Wallonne 2025, it wasn't because their favorite rider hadn't won. It was because they had shouted “WTF” at their screens. It doesn't matter who their favorite riders are, we don't care, because absolutely no rider had the slightest chance of keeping up with this attack.

The Pogacars of 2022 and 2023 would be crushed by today's Pogacar. At this point, it's a change of nature. I can't find any explanation outside witchcraft. That's not the case for the other riders. Not one of them.

I completely understand why a rider like Remco has to deny reality in order to keep going. I don't understand why a mere cycling fan would do so.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I
The Pogacars of 2022 and 2023 would be crushed by today's Pogacar. At this point, it's a change of nature. I can't find any explanation outside witchcraft.

Moderator:
No discussion of thaumaturgy in this part of the forum please. That discussion is strictly limited to the Cauldron subforum.

 

[Oldman]

A lot of people are discounting the fact that Pogi won Tour de l'Avenir with 0 team support at 19.. he literally had 0 teammates.

This simple fact shows that his margin of progression from that point was off the charts

Not necessarily off his charts, though. He has always shown tactical ability to win whether team support is present or not. He seldom seems to waste energy and that tactical skill is best learned young.
We compare him to Merckx based on wins. I would offer that he has qualities closer to a Lemond, who managed to work his way through adversaries on his own team to win. Not to mention a huge bias against a non-continental rider dominating the sport.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

A lot of people are discounting the fact that Pogi won Tour de l'Avenir with 0 team support at 19.. he literally had 0 teammates.

This simple fact shows that his margin of progression from that point was off the charts

Pogacar: slightly above average the first 3 seasons, signs a pre-contract with UAE in 2018, wins Tour de l'Avenir.
Del Toro: wins absolutely nothing during the first 3 seasons, gets in touch with UAE, wins Tour de l'Avenir.
Pablo Torres: Actually a good junior, signs with UAE, finishes second in Tour de l'Avenir, crushes everyone on the Colle delle Finnestre.

Does anyone notice a pattern, especially considering this happened with two of the dirtiest people in cycling history being part of UAE management?

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar: slightly above average the first 3 seasons

The last of those 3 seasons (you mean 2017?) he was just 18 and riding for a Slovenian 3rd tier continental team. 2018 was when he won Avenir.

But how did Mauro Gianetti identify a super responder to doping methods before he was even working with him? Good luck? Sorry if this was answered long ago but I still struggle with this age progression argument since Pogacar was so young and the science and data I've seen says you can't extrapolate junior results into senior as there are too many variables both known and unknown.

The data I've seen says it is inconclusive when riders will hit their peaks, what their peaks might be, how soon they improve and also when they will decline. Everyone is different, doping or not.

And I don't think Gianetti is the only dirty former rider still involved in the sport? Of course Gianetti can learn and improve from mistakes like anyone. But the manner of his riders getting caught for CERA EPO in the 2008 TdF was to me amateurish.

But ultimately the only thing which explains what you and others are saying is possible collusion with the UCI to avoid detection. Nothing else makes sense.

 

[veganrob]

I saw a post of someone about this thread on the remco thread is the next merckx thread.
Not sure if i posted this there and it was removed or i forgot to press the post button.
But perhaps it's better I post this here to begin with.

Your post in the remco thread is bit weird.

You mention his clinic thread, not his main thread. It's only natural for people to be talking about Pogacar in his clinic thread. It's a thread were people discuss possible doping use.
It ain't a good sign that all riders seem to be able to surpass the records of known doped riders with seeming ease. But Pogacar more than anyone looks like a red flag.

From his entourage (Gianetti), from some of his comments denying involvement with carbon monoxide when his team acknowledged it's use a day later, from his riding style, ... .
It would be strange indeed if people don't have questions.

I'm not sure if remco rides clean but if i was betting man, i definitely would not place my bets on Pogacar riding clean.
Now maybe he never gets caught, or it's covered with the mantle of love like they did for Anquetil, Merxkx, Indurain, ... .
But him riding clean seems near impossible to me.

Has Remco won any big races? If the answer is yes, there your answer to his doping question.

 

[masking_agent]

I assume if this synthetic hemoglobin is 40 times more effective at transporting oxygen then VO2 max and FTP would be hugely boosted depending how much the rider used. But I am not sure the biological passport actually tracks oxygen carrying capacity, just the blood component which carries the oxygen? Not sure the bio-passport can distinguish between natural and synthetic hemoglobin?

And on the 'very well known rider' I'd be surprised if it wasn't his manager, doctor or team rather than the rider himself who approached these guys?

wow ! this is huge ! I wonder what the increase in numbers are for the V02 max must be with this claim of 40 times more effective ? 75–85 ml/kg/min is now maybe 90-95 ml/kg/min ? Great for Mauro, and UAE .

 

[Cookster15]

wow ! this is huge ! I wonder what the increase in numbers are for the V02 max must be with this claim of 40 times more effective ? 75–85 ml/kg/min is now maybe 90-95 ml/kg/min ? Great for Mauro, and UAE .

What is the biggest deal is the bio-passport cannot distinguish between natural and synthetic hemoglobin like how they can distinguish between young and old red blood cells to detect autologous infusion.

On Mauro, and UAE, it still needs to be explained why they might be the only team using synthetic hemoglobin? And I am not seeing crushing dominance from their other riders (not Pogi). Some are predicting big things from Del Toro but Mr Gianetti's 'methods' weren't able to counter Simon Yates in the Giro.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

What is the biggest deal is the bio-passport cannot distinguish between natural and synthetic hemoglobin like how they can distinguish between young and old red blood cells to detect autologous infusion.

On Mauro, and UAE, it still needs to be explained why they might be the only team using synthetic hemoglobin? And I am not seeing crushing dominance from their other riders (not Pogi). Some are predicting big things from Del Toro but Mr Gianetti's 'methods' weren't able to counter Simon Yates in the Giro.

However Yates fantastic comeback as a grand tour winner 2025 and retirement might indicate early access to super blood.

Edit: changed the year so it’s correct

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

What is the biggest deal is the bio-passport cannot distinguish between natural and synthetic hemoglobin like how they can distinguish between young and old red blood cells to detect autologous infusion.

On Mauro, and UAE, it still needs to be explained why they might be the only team using synthetic hemoglobin? And I am not seeing crushing dominance from their other riders (not Pogi). Some are predicting big things from Del Toro but Mr Gianetti's 'methods' weren't able to counter Simon Yates in the Giro.

I don't think the passport is necessarily the right way to search for synthetic hemoglobin, if i were to design a test for it i'd rather search for the xenobiotics that are used to stabilize it (like KC 1003 for erythomer), with some good old LC-MS/MS it should not be infeasible, might be tricky depending on the half life, but doable.