Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[ashhutch1997]

Sub 35 minute ascent of Alpe d'Huez coming this year.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Always on another planet, decimating everyone and everything in his path, only to "suddenly" endure such an epic humiliation, getting gapped by Remco (!!!) in Kigali. How does he fall like that? Was it just the hangover from an illness or poor preparation?! Super strange. It should be a day of study.

It's these weird off days that I think tell a tale or two. They're utterly random and sometimes relatively dramatic. And they're not part of a contiguous block of gradually declining form brought on by illness or fatigue, the normal thing you see very often affecting mere mortals (that is, everyone else). No, they just happen albeit not very often, and then he's back to his absolute best the next day or by the next race a week or so later. And they seem to take place on time trials at least as often as during normal races. I can't say for certain why they occur. But a reasonable explanation or theory would be that they occur because something mechanical stops working.

 

[jotafap]

Better batteries required.

But but but... Seixas must have a motor too, right?

 

[ivanic]

Measure your energy, your attacks, don't win too much, and don't do it with too many unorthodox performances. All this no longer exists.
Froome prime looks like a junior, Contador performance in Verbier is replicated daily.
By now the crowd has become anesthetized; this is the norm.


No one except us and a few X-maniacs is asking questions. Will he ever be caught?

 

[SorelyBoy]

But but but... Seixas must have a motor too, right?

Let’s see him go up against boy wonder first. If Seixas starts winning every type of race under the sun without breaking sweat then we can talk. For now, stay on topic.

 

[E_F_]

But but but... Seixas must have a motor too, right?

IF Pogacar does, he  might well too. That would make sense

 

[onefortheroad]

It's these weird off days that I think tell a tale or two. They're utterly random and sometimes relatively dramatic. And they're not part of a contiguous block of gradually declining form brought on by illness or fatigue, the normal thing you see very often affecting mere mortals (that is, everyone else). No, they just happen albeit not very often, and then he's back to his absolute best the next day or by the next race a week or so later. And they seem to take place on time trials at least as often as during normal races. I can't say for certain why they occur. But a reasonable explanation or theory would be that they occur because something mechanical stops working.

Agree. Very good points. The sudden, instantaneous, and severe decline, followed by an immediate recovery over the next few days. I suspect this will happen less and less in 2026. Maybe not at all. No (mechanical?) limits...

 

[onefortheroad]

Measure your energy, your attacks, don't win too much, and don't do it with too many unorthodox performances. All this no longer exists.
Froome prime looks like a junior, Contador performance in Verbier is replicated daily.
By now the crowd has become anesthetized; this is the norm.


No one except us and a few X-maniacs is asking questions. Will he ever be caught?

There’s no such thing as restraint or moderation anymore. Even the crumbs are gone. Now it’s just winning everything, everywhere, on every terrain, right in the faces of the specialists and every type of rider. From epic solo raids (which he’s probably bored of himself by now) to those cheeky, insulting sprints. Maximum greed and pure audacity. Why stop when nobody can catch you anyway?!

 

[jotafap]

Let’s see him go up against boy wonder first. If Seixas starts winning every type of race under the sun without breaking sweat then we can talk. For now, stay on topic.

My sincere apologies, you must be absolutely right! Hell, you even have inside information about his sweat, so I can’t argue with that!
I thought something like “The Duel of Batteries” or “The Duel of Motors” could be fun. What do you think, good headline, ehh?

 

[Divergence]

The motor conspiracies are just "out there" and not even worth responding to in my opinion.

Agree.

He was the fastest by 2 seconds.

This I agree with. The "eye-test" is a pretty bad test when it comes to doping. The worst of being "they don't suffer properly" eye test. It's not even true most of the time (that you can't see suffering), but it's also that people like Kohl used to look like they die when riding their bike, while also being super fueled.

Pogicentrism is also not helping when it comes to finding out what's going on. Of course this is his thread, I am not saying don't discuss Pogi here, but with all the moaning about his dominance, the focus seems to be more on frustration than discovery of truth atm.

I tried responding with a well thought out post, but it got nowhere precisely because it was well thought out. Just saying eye test is what count here, I guess.

No, but it's clearly the stuff that gets by far the most discussion and engagement from fans for that specific reason.

Not even that. Only superficial motor doping accusations get some traction because people do not want to think a bit. I is much easier to just say "... yeah, look at his hands, he pressed something, he must have a motor in his bike...".

People show up here not even feeling the need to spell out the fact that he's doped - get's very little response from only the most delusional. People then make weird claims about proof of motors, or even just the reasonable claim, that it honestly might make sense for motors to be the explanation behing Pog - much more engagement, non-delusionals can now join in the fun!

Nobody has ever made a reasonable claim about Pog riding with a motor in his bike.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Not even that. Only superficial motor doping accusations get some traction because people do not want to think a bit. I is much easier to just say "... yeah, look at his hands, he pressed something, he must have a motor in his bike..."

You know, when a foreigner beats the Belgian home favorite(s) at their own favorite race, we tend to see accusations of motor doping. Could be motivated reasoning, just maybe...

Also, from my experience riding bicycles over the last few decades, the gear shifters are commonly located on the handlebars, which may be what riders press before they accelerate. Just to put it "out there"

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I tried responding with a well thought out post, but it got nowhere precisely because it was well thought out. Just saying eye test is what count here, I guess.

But why is it in your opinion that the eye test it what counts? Like what are the upshots, or what, in your opinion? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Rob5091]

Florian Senechal talks about the recent Flanders race -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...-stunned-by-world-champions-speed-in-flanders
(original article in French at https://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/t...e-navais-jamais-vu-ca_vid60067207/video.shtml )

Senechal was not dangling at the back when he first saw Pogacar come through. He was well placed, riding among some of the strongest names in the race, and felt in control of the situation as the pace lifted.
“It was impressive,” he said in conversation with Eurosport. “I was well-positioned with my team. I was following Christophe Laporte and Remco Evenepoel, I felt comfortable, and suddenly I saw something coming past me on the right. I thought it was a motorbike and I was ready to shout at it.”
What made the moment hit even harder was not just the speed itself, but the context around it. Senechal stressed that the group was already flat out, with riders like Laporte and Evenepoel holding their positions and riding strongly, yet Pogacar still came past them all into the wind. “But no, it was Tadej going up the climb, who came past at a speed… I’ve never seen that in my life, and I’ve seen a lot in my career,” Senechal said, before spelling out the contrast. “When I saw him go past at that speed, while we were already flat out… In front of me there were strong riders like Laporte and Remco riding well, but they weren’t moving up. Tadej, though, came past everyone into the wind, like a motorbike. That’s the difference.”

 

[ashhutch1997]

It's funny, was watching some of those brilliant behind the scenes RVV videos from the late 2010's. My God, racing back then was so much more believable compared to now.
Cycling is back in the dark ages, worse than the 90's IMO, complete clown show.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Florian Senechal talks about the recent Flanders race -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...-stunned-by-world-champions-speed-in-flanders
(original article in French at https://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/t...e-navais-jamais-vu-ca_vid60067207/video.shtml )

Its funny because we constantly hear about how we can 'make cycling safer', maybe start trying to catch the dopers again like they did from 2006-10.....

 

[Rob5091]

Unforunately it seems cycling has become like other sports where records are expected to be broken with regularity.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Unforunately it seems cycling has become like other sports where records are expected to be broken with regularity.

I remember the Sky days when the climbing times were slower than the 90's and they'd use that as a reason why they were clean. Now suddenly these long lasting records 'should' be beaten.

 

[Pozzovivo]

I remember the Sky days when the climbing times were slower than the 90's and they'd use that as a reason why they were clean. Now suddenly these long lasting records 'should' be beaten.

Well, since we are all speculating from a distance, we should try to be internally consistent at least?

If the fast times of the 90's and 2020's are evidence of doping, then the slow times in the 2010 should be considered evidence of a cleaner game? Team Sky, as far as I have seen, did some (dark)grey area stuff with TUE's, but some high octane sophisticated doping program I have not seen too much evidence of. I seriously doubt that they were using blood bags and epo for instance.

Ordering testosterone to the Manchester Velodrome stinks of course.

 

[E_F_]

'It’s like riding against a motorbike' - Mohoric on trying to follow Pogacar in Flanders https://domestiquecycling.com/en/news/mohoric-it-was-like-riding-against-a-motorbike-at-tour-of-flanders/

 

[E_F_]

Nobody has ever made a reasonable claim about Pog riding with a motor in his bike.

I'll make one right now: You catergorically cannot rule it out.

 

[E_F_]

You know, when a foreigner beats the Belgian home favorite(s) at their own favorite race, we tend to see accusations of motor doping. Could be motivated reasoning, just maybe...

Ah yes, Pogacar beat the pseudo-belgian MvdP, such a beloved figure in this part of the forum - that must be why some members are strangely convinced he's motordoping, and others won't rule it out. Makes perfect sense!

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Please, riders are not referring to motors when they such things. They could just as well claim someone was flying like Superman or running like Forrest Gump. It only means they were impressed by and unable to math the speed of the opponent.

 

[E_F_]

Well, since we are all speculating from a distance, we should try to be internally consistent at least?

If the fast times of the 90's and 2020's are evidence of doping, then the slow times in the 2010 should be considered evidence of a cleaner game? Team Sky, as far as I have seen, did some (dark)grey area stuff with TUE's, but some high octane sophisticated doping program I have not seen too much evidence of. I seriously doubt that they were using blood bags and epo for instance.

Ordering testosterone to the Manchester Velodrome stinks of course.

There are pages upon pages here in the clinic where this is spelled out. Yes, the sport was infinitely less dirty in the 2010s than it is now. There was still doping, and some were doping more than others; those would be Team Sky's "marginal gains" for instance! And back then the differences were marginal compared to now.

 

[E_F_]

Please, riders are not referring to motors when they such things. They could just as well claim someone was flying like Superman or running like Forrest Gump. It only means they were impressed by and unable to math the speed of the opponent.

We know. Well I know, anyway... It's still 1) funny and 2) very telling, that something is seriously, horribly wrong.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Ah yes, Pogacar beat the pseudo-belgian MvdP, such a beloved figure in this part of the forum - that must be why some members are strangely convinced he's motordoping, and others won't rule it out. Makes perfect sense!

Very bad faith take imo. Who finished 3rd and 4th again? The two most popular riders in which country?