Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[BubbaChuck]

VVA is more bended but with tractor he still catches wall of air before him.do people even understand basics of physics.absolute power,aero.whats next.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Van der Poels' range on the climby end is pretty similar to Gilbert, alhough Gilbert in the early days had more climbing chops.

I do think Van der Poel and Van Aert would absolutely thrive in 2010s Liege and pre 2015 Lombardia as well. I even think Van Aert could have won Lombardia had he raced in 2020 when the field was absurdly weak for a while.

Oh they definitely could, especially with Gerrans and Valverde working for a sprint. Though maybe they’d attack more since WVA and MVDP faster.

 

[SorelyBoy]

VVA is more bended but with tractor he still catches wall of air before him.do people even understand basics of physics.absolute power,aero.whats next.

Wout’s position is markedly superior to Pogacar’s. Sure, wider shoulders but if you look he tucks (collapses really) them in towards the bars, with the back remaining very flat time trial style. That is not an easy position to perfect, but has been well coached and practiced over years. Meanwhile, Pogacar rides his bike like he’s cycling to the shops for some flowers and a baguette. He could have a shopping basket on the front of his bike, it wouldn’t make it any worse, nor have any impact on his results.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I believe Pog is pretty well optimized in terms of kit

No arguments from me on that score.

 

[BubbaChuck]

with that said,he still catches even amount or less air than vva,who is bigger man.in the end of the day mass rules.if you look at remco for example,he is dwarf,natural turtle position and he doesnot lose any wattage bended unlike pog.why da fuk do you think remco can beat pog in tt,despetite the fact pog engine eats him alive.

 

[jotafap]

For the sake of it, i rewatched a few times the moment Pog almost crashed.

Absolutely unreal how can someone see something wrong there, its only possible these are people who never rode a bike, and also completely blinded by hate towards him.

 

[BubbaChuck]

If he was on e-bike why would he hold that position.

 

[Divergence]

I’m saying a rider with the physical attributes of Pogacar should be nowhere near to someone like Van Aert in a race such as Paris Roubaix, never mind trying to gap him on the huge cobbles section near the end of the race. If you believe this ***, any of it, there really is no hope for you because it’s a complete crock of very bad smelling doo daa, an utter fantasy. I suggest you review the last thirty years of this sport and reevaluate your thinking.

Why not? What is wrong with Pog's physical attributes?

Great misunderstanding

We all know that are many crashes at PR.
I talk about that kind of crashes that pogacar had for example last year and almost this year.

second PR in a row where he is overpacing, can´t control his bike.
is he such a bad bike handler?
what is causing this problems that is loosing control of his bike?
look at the last video and tell me that this looks like a normal acceleration just after drifting and braking to avoid a crash.

and why does he spin his crank before the service car is picking up the bike? why he doesn´t do it when his car is pickin up his bike?

how is it possible that a sub 65kg like him can drop almost everyone on a flat course even without a lower ftp?

no one literally no one has any kind of explanations for this!

This has been written many times on the forum here. What do you think what is the FTP difference between WvA and Pog? Also, given that they have ridden for 3 hours at 350W, what would be the 30min power of WvA and what would it be for Pog?

I’ve seen others commenting on this elsewhere, specifically at last year’s race. Ultimately, for me, I just don’t understand how a small lightweight rider generates enough power over that type of terrain to even live with the likes of a Van Aert , a MVDP, a Pedersen, never mind actually compete to win the race. He shouldn’t be able to live with them on the flat. One more hilly terrain, maybe it gets competitive, but even there I’ve seen him doing things which just don’t look natural. As I’ve commented before, his accelerations look effortless and outright strange, instant power, little sign his body is pushing any additional energy through his legs. Factor in all the other empirical data, and there is something very very strange going on here.

What do you mean little body? Why does the biceps and chest muscle on WvA benefit his cycling? Muscle is expensive to carry around and taxing on the cardiovascular system, so you should not have more of it then absolutely necessary in an endurance sport.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Why not? What is wrong with Pog's physical attributes?

This has been written many times on the forum here. What do you think what is the FTP difference between WvA and Pog? Also, given that they have ridden for 3 hours at 350W, what would be the 30min power of WvA and what would it be for Pog?

What do you mean little body? Why does the biceps and chest muscle on WvA benefit his cycling? Muscle is expensive to carry around and taxing on the cardiovascular system, so you should not have more of it then absolutely necessary in an endurance sport.

Er, historical evidence? For which there a very well documented natural reasons. Including weight and build. The upper body is actually quite important. Mass and muscle distribution count. I listed the last thirty odd years worth. At the very least would you not accept that he’s rather anomalous.

I hear you, I do. But your objections are not ultimately logical. We must analyse Pogacar's performances against his physical attributes, not merely because science tells us they are important, but because history confirms that they are. We have, in essence, the test results from a laboratory called world professional cycling over the last thirty years. This is when hyper specialised cyclists emerged and then came to dominate certain types of bike races. This was the inevitable result of professionalisation of the sport, particularly the influence of money married with sports science and an understanding of what works, what was optimal. Setting aside the rest of the cycling calendar for now, we can look at the Spring Classics and see a huge list of results, test results if you will. Real life events. And what do we see? What does reality tell us about the type of rider who wins and even competes in this type of race? See my previous post. The results are stark.

Now as to Pogacar's physicality. Upper body strength and weight are vital, particularly on the cobbled classics. I should not really have to do this here, and I may not be successful in explaining what I mean. But hopefully it will explain why I have serious problems with believing what Pogacar is doing. Apologies in advance for the length of the post. And apologies also if I sound as if I'm teaching you or anyone else how to suck eggs. I'm just trying to explain my thinking, shaped by nearly fifty years of watching the sport.

Upper‑body strength matters in the cobbled Classics because the rider must:
-stabilise the bike
-absorb violent impacts
-maintain power through chaos
-keep the front wheel planted
-resist lateral deflection
-act as the suspension

This is why the sport has always favoured 75–85 kg riders with powerful upper bodies — and why Pogačar’s success is so hard to reconcile with the last 30 years of physiology. Cobbles try to throw the bike off line. At 45–55 km/h on pavé, the bike is hit by thousands of micro‑impacts every minute. Each impact tries to:
-twist the handlebars
-bounce the front wheel sideways
-pitch the rider forward
-destabilise the hips

A rider with stronger arms, shoulders, and core can resist those forces and keep the bike tracking straight. A lighter climber gets deflected more easily.

The power conundrum:
You need upper‑body torque to keep power going. On smooth tarmac, power is almost entirely legs + hips (and I still have problems believing the power he generates given his size and bike positioning and movement but anyway). On cobbles, power becomes full‑body:
-shoulders stabilise the front end
-arms counteract lateral shocks
-core keeps the pelvis stable
-back muscles transmit force to the pedals

If the upper body collapses under vibration, the legs can’t deliver steady power. This is why real Classics riders look “thicker” through the trunk.
In effect, the rider becomes the suspension system. There’s no suspension on a road bike, obvs. On cobbles, the rider is the suspension. That means:
- arms absorb vertical hits
- shoulders and back dissipate vibration
- core prevents the torso from bouncing
- the whole upper body smooths the bike’s motion

A climber’s body is optimised for lightness and efficiency, not shock absorption. Pogacar is a lightweight climber. No one like him has ever done what he is doing, and for very good reasons. Even the world's best programme would struggle to make him competitive in this type of race.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Meh remco is easilly competative and he weighs even less.he was 3rd in flanders. he literally couldnot drop VVA,which tells you everything. Sure muscle helps,but you pay the price in recovery and air resistance.everything is atrade off and pog si anomly.nobody is denying that.your claim is,thats impossible.thast false. once again,why would guy on e-bike hold that position.do you understand paradox.

 

[Forever The Best]

Van der Poels' range on the climby end is pretty similar to Gilbert, alhough Gilbert in the early days had more climbing chops.

I do think Van der Poel and Van Aert would absolutely thrive in 2010s Liege and pre 2015 Lombardia as well. I even think Van Aert could have won Lombardia had he raced in 2020 when the field was absurdly weak for a while.

2020 Lombardia was a big opportunity missed for Roglic/Van Aert with how the race turned out (Evenepoel crash - applies more for Van Aert though). Van Aert was great climbing legs that Tour too (Glieres, PDBF), could have beat Fuglsang. Roglic even crashed out in Dauphine.

 

[Cookster15]

Relax, the salt is literally overflowing and the visible defensiveness is just... no.

Personally I'm more curious about Pog's mileage. Dope or no dope every athlete has a body clock and Pog started young. He's going to be 28 in 5 months as well. It's just interesting to me how laboured he looked when Van Aert pulled hard.

The eye test is what it is and frankly this was the least impressive version of Pog in a Monument in a long time.

Surely they could just tweak the motors to compensate for age related decline? Another reason why I doubt that Pogacar is motor doping.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Meh remco is easilly competative and he weighs even less.he was 3rd in flanders. he literally couldnot drop VVA,which tells you everything. Sure muscle helps,but you pay the price in recovery and air resistance.everything is atrade off and pog si anomly.nobody is denying that.your claim is,thats impossible.thast false. once again,why would guy on e-bike hold that position.do you understand paradox.

Yeah, but come on, Remco’s body shape is very different. He’s a pocket battleship, a very different morphology:

• thicker trunk
• more upper‑body mass
• higher torque
• huge sustained absolute power *on the flat*
• Beautiful aerodynamic bike position

He’s not a pure climber and up until this year he’s avoided the cobbles. He’s very competitive in most of the other classics, but he’s not working miracles.

As for Pogacar, ultimately I don’t know if he’s doping mechanically or not. But he’s doing things in races that appear to exceed his physical capabilities, beating men who are much more suited to the discipline, and which are also historically unprecedented.

Considering all this, who he’s managed by, and the sport’s long history of skulduggery, I consider Mr Pogacar as far too good to be true. I’ve seen a fair bit of nonsense in my time, but this lad takes the biscuit.

 

[AlpRaid]

Tadej Pogacar slams the Shimano-supplied bike at Paris–Roubaix: "It felt like a wheelbarrow"​

Hmm.

Perhaps it doesn't have the motor he's used to.

 

[MartinGT]

Can we compare historic versions of the Ronde pre the VIP route it does now?

What I cannot understand is, why didn't Pog take a wheel from the service bike instead of a bike?

 

[BubbaChuck]

I can see the doubt.basically what are you saying is pog is goat and rest are chumps. i agree.

 

[DONCA]

Max Walscheid who finisehd 11th at PB talked in his Podcast Radio RTW about the race and about chasing Pogacar.

+90kg rider, aboslute Powerhouse was mentioning all time PRs in this race and an "unbelievable" Pogacar who was flying around and almost impossible to follow.

So many times we hear "unbelievable" and there is a reason for this word. It´s far from credible what we are whitnessing.

Marco Haller also talked about the race and mentioned that he was happy for WVA because he dereved it as a still human rider where it is possible that he can win the race.

So many riders and people don´t believe what is happening but only a few people can say something without harming themselves and risking losing their jobs.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Tadej Pogacar slams the Shimano-supplied bike at Paris–Roubaix: "It felt like a wheelbarrow"​

Hmm.

Perhaps it doesn't have the motor he's used to.

It was a Canyon Ultimate from 2022, which is a very good bike, with dura ace C60 wheels. The spare bikes are are also measured up to all the favourates measurements. So no excuses for the "GOAT".
I not sure I believe the 'motor' accusations, but is was very suspicious how terrible he looked on the other bike, then was like a motorcycle the second he got back on the Colnago..

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Calling a top end bike "wheelbarrow" was an unfortunate comment by Teddy, lol. Maybe it was missized or sth like that. His comment adds more fuel to hidden motor discussions.

 

[jotafap]

Calling a top end bike "wheelbarrow" was an unfortunate comment by Teddy, lol. Maybe it was missized or sth like that. His comment adds more fuel to hidden motor discussions.

It really doesn’t. Only a few specific people seem to think so, the rest of the world doesn’t agree and doesn’t come up with such random, highly unlikely theories.

And by the way, I find it funny because I’ve never seen a cyclist with a spare bike (not from the his own team) not try to switch it basically immediately with the utmost urgency, in any circustance. Let alone in a race like Paris Roubaix.

 

[Raest]

It was a Canyon Ultimate from 2022, which is a very good bike, with dura ace C60 wheels. The spare bikes are are also measured up to all the favourates measurements. So no excuses for the "GOAT".
I not sure I believe the 'motor' accusations, but is was very suspicious how terrible he looked on the other bike, then was like a motorcycle the second he got back on the Colnago..

I only watch highlights on youtube these days, I saw a segment where he was going backwards on that bike but I didn't pay much attention as it might have been him not getting used to the bike but it seems it wasn't. I remember Vingegaard finishing a TdF stage on a teammate's bike and he wasn't dropped like that. It would be interesting to know if it was the correct fit for him, surely he could stay with the group on that bike if it was...

 

[E_F_]

The saddle did look a bit high.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I’m also interested in teddys body clock.
He did start young
He did look spent at the end of last years tour, and he couldn’t drop Wout.
They’re all on the juice.
But if he carries on his level for another 3 or 4 years that would truly be unprecedented, based on his young start in the big time. That’s why the comparisons with Eddy are premature.

We seem to be thinking Teddy has already won the next 3 tours, let alone the one coming up, me thinks it may not be so simple.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The saddle did look a bit high.

"The saddle height was not correct and the wheels were also not suitable for the cobbles,"

As for the wheels maybe it's about the air pressure?

Tadej Pogacar slams the Shimano-supplied bike at Paris–Roubaix: "It felt like a wheelbarrow"

Tadej Pogacar finished second at Paris-Roubaix for the second year in a row, this time yielding only on the iconic Velodrome to Wout van Aert, but in the end he did not hide his displeasure with the w...

cyclinguptodate.com

@BahamontesPhantom Well, this season he's already confirmed to continue his thermonuclear level. I think the next season should also be great. I'm not trying to predict anything in 2028 or later, it could be his decline time.

 

[daking123]

The fact that he wasn’t able to ride the neutral bike is a non-story. If he truly couldn’t manage a short distance on it, that would imply he relies on an unrealistically large motor in his regular bike, which isn’t credible.
Pogacar od course use a sophisticated doping program and a very small concealable motor that adds watts in crucial moments(like we all can see in the videos in this thread) blending in with the internal components. At this point, people who can’t see this should simply be ignored.