Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

And to be fair, Pogi has rounder wheels than everyone else too.

Keep in mind that Pogi won his first two Tours by just eating pizza and drinking beer (he didn't even train hard).
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that his room for improvement was immense!

 

[SorelyBoy]

Keep in mind that Pogi won his first two Tours by just eating pizza and drinking beer (he didn't even train hard).
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that his room for improvement was immense!

That would explain his PDBF performance. Fart Power! It’s all starting to make sense.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

View: https://youtu.be/ZdDHtLP3oEs?is=huFI5gZQQypHkXAE


Not sure how detectable it is, but with lots of money and influence it could pass and I think they can make a lot better versions of this with professionals and the said proper funding.

Im still also wondering why pog spinned the wheel a few times in PR while changing to the neutral bike. Is there any logical explanation or could it ne connected to cheating? Don't remember anyone else doing that while changing bikes.

Finally came around to watching it.
My main takeaway is that, as has been claimed in the other podcast, there is much more testing since 2016. The GhostInTheMachine guy said that in big races they are using X-Rays 10 times a day. That doesn't sound bad to me.
In the end the two graduates got 12,5 watts out of it and spoke of a theoretical potential for 20 watts. That's not lots. Of course you can put more resources and engeneering in it, but small batteries are small bateries so I guess it won't be much more, but maybe someone can correct me on this.
The motor they build was not detectable for the simplest and most superficial testing device used by the UCI, not the more advanced tools they use. But overall it was super detectable.
So maybe someone can enlighten me, but if they are regularly doing x-rays at big races, how would you get around that? Even if you manage to build the parts in such a way that they seem to be part of the bike, the structure compared to the normal frame will still be changed I guess.

 

[BubbaChuck]

ancient aliens section.its fun though.

 

[Red Rick]

Finally came around to watching it.
My main takeaway is that, as has been claimed in the other podcast, there is much more testing since 2016. The GhostInTheMachine guy said that in big races they are using X-Rays 10 times a day. That doesn't sound bad to me.
In the end the two graduates got 12,5 watts out of it and spoke of a theoretical potential for 20 watts. That's not lots. Of course you can put more resources and engeneering in it, but small batteries are small bateries so I guess it won't be much more, but maybe someone can correct me on this.
The motor they build was not detectable for the simplest and most superficial testing device used by the UCI, not the more advanced tools they use. But overall it was super detectable.
So maybe someone can enlighten me, but if they are regularly doing x-rays at big races, how would you get around that? Even if you manage to build the parts in such a way that they seem to be part of the bike, the structure compared to the normal frame will still be changed I guess.

Look if we're gonna pretend 12.5W isn't very significants in key junctions of a race then what are we doing.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Look if we're gonna pretend 12.5W isn't very significants in key junctions of a race then what are we doing.

That's not what I meant to say there. But it won't help you accelerate madly, and this is mainly what the fuzz usually is about. And it's important for the moto question to know if a magic wheel caps out at 20 watts or let's say 80 or 100, so I thought it was worth a mention.

 

[Divergence]

That's not what I meant to say there. But it won't help you accelerate madly, and this is mainly what the fuzz usually is about. And it's important for the moto question to know if a magic wheel caps out at 20 watts or let's say 80 or 100, so I thought it was worth a mention.

Also EM induction has been known since Faraday. It is not like these guys did something revolutionary. Anyone who is not completely aloof would spot that there is something off with such a bike (even the best engineered version of the prototype from the video).

 

[Divergence]

The problem is, no one else does it. Also, I’d accept the accelerations more easily if he would do us the favour of at least looking like he was putting in the effort. Instead, he appears preternatural, unreal. Artificial. There is often a disconnection between what his bike is doing and what he appears to be doing with his body. More than myself have commented on this. It was stark at PR, where Pogacar attacked Van Aert looking for all the world like he was barely doing anything but coasting past, his torso high. By comparison, Van Aert was turning himself inside out just to keep up when it should be the reverse on such a course. I don’t buy the equipment theory either. If better equipment makes the likes of PR easier to ride, where are all the other sub70kg riders? And, of course, the better equipment is being used by everyone else and will merely allow the 75kg riders to apply their superior power and weight ever more efficiently. It’s not a serious explanation why Pogacar does what he does. I suggest, with all humility, that the reasons lie squarely with who he’s being managed and paid by, it’s not that complicated.

Idk what is this talk that Pog did some acceleration with no sweat so to speak? When WvA attacked Pog was sprinting to get up to speed and to catch Wout. Likewise when Pog accelerated (the one coming from behind can always accelerate a bit more gradually) Wouthad to contort and sprit to get up to speed. Pretty normal. Also even if someone had a motor they would still go all out (even with to motor's help) to catch somebody attacking. it is not like Pog would not do his all out acceleration because he calculates in the watts from the supposed motor.
To conclude, I believe this talk about Pog riding without any effort is not well supported. Sure he looks easy and smooth on the bike but that is the way he rides. He is no Vansevenant .

 

[peterfin]

So maybe someone can enlighten me, but if they are regularly doing x-rays at big races, how would you get around that? Even if you manage to build the parts in such a way that they seem to be part of the bike, the structure compared to the normal frame will still be changed I guess.

I had a post about it a year ago. X-rays don't see through everything and have resolution limits. You are basically looking for specific signatures and anomolies vs a standard version. In order to evade detection you would need thorough testing using the same X-ray tech and know the protocols. So you need access to specific labs and inside knowledge. And if they disassemble it, they still catch you. It seems very risky but I guess we cannot rule it out.

 

[BubbaChuck]

True lightweight.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfc9kuuIcX4

 

[Divergence]

I had a post about it a year ago. X-rays don't see through everything and have resolution limits. You are basically looking for specific signatures and anomolies vs a standard version. In order to evade detection you would need thorough testing using the same X-ray tech and know the protocols. So you need access to specific labs and inside knowledge. And if they disassemble it, they still catch you. It seems very risky but I guess we cannot rule it out.

Oh, come on. Unless you are using some Alibaba sh** you would see enough to know something is off.

 

[onefortheroad]

Idk what is this talk that Pog did some acceleration with no sweat so to speak? When WvA attacked Pog was sprinting to get up to speed and to catch Wout. Likewise when Pog accelerated (the one coming from behind can always accelerate a bit more gradually) Wouthad to contort and sprit to get up to speed. Pretty normal. Also even if someone had a motor they would still go all out (even with to motor's help) to catch somebody attacking. it is not like Pog would not do his all out acceleration because he calculates in the watts from the supposed motor.
To conclude, I believe this talk about Pog riding without any effort is not well supported. Sure he looks easy and smooth on the bike but that is the way he rides. He is no Vansevenant .

Oh, it’s just his natural, effortless face, ok, ok... while every other world class athlete behind him is literally dying, lungs inside out.
The most jarring evidence of this "impossible" performance is his seated accelerations on extreme gradients. His cadence goes "electric," and he glides away with a robotic smoothness that looks totally artificial. When he falls, the physical trauma seems to have zero impact on his power output. He simply remounts and resumes with the same efficiency. And maybe he falls because he is carrying too much power for a human to actually steer in some corners? And those spinning rear wheels after a fall?

He is a 67 kg "lightweight" who somehow has the raw horsepower to bully 80kg monsters on the cobbles, then turns around and drops pure mountain specialists the next week.
Just my opinion but the whole thing reeks of "artificial" from a mile away. An ostentatious mockery of the entire peloton. He is winning wherever, whenever, and however he wants. Seeing him still "at large" with these thermonuclear numbers is just embarrassing for cycling.

 

[Glorious]

Team UAE is constantly running a promotional campaign to deceive us. Cycling on pizza and cola through 2022. Or, as mentioned, the terrible comments about cappuccino with pizza tomorrow, etc. Or Pogacar suddenly doing leg exercises for the press. WTF!!! I have never felt so much hate. UAE is completely deceiving us.
But also look at his wheel rotation during a flat tire in PR. Or the crazy thumb movements in many races when he accelerates.
Look at the terrible history of Gianetti and all those figures at UAE. Pogacar doesn't care; that doesn't make sense either.
He can ride faster than anyone else but is suddenly overtaken by Evenepoel in a time trial, a World Championship, and therefore different controls.
Look at the UCI; they are lax and look the other way. Prone to corruption; read the books by Hamilton or Jean-Pierre Verdy as well. Take Colnago, the bikes that are simply owned by the UAE itself--> Chimera Investments (capital & strategy)
Investment fund from Abu Dhabi, Part of the influential Royal Group.
Bought a majority stake in Colnago in 2020.
So much *** and Pogacar rides faster than all of history.... yeah right!!

 

[Berniece]

Its not Pogs fault,Remco been ducking for years.

What do you mean by ducking?

 

[Divergence]

Oh, it’s just his natural, effortless face, ok, ok... while every other world class athlete behind him is literally dying, lungs inside out.
The most jarring evidence of this "impossible" performance is his seated accelerations on extreme gradients. His cadence goes "electric," and he glides away with a robotic smoothness that looks totally artificial. When he falls, the physical trauma seems to have zero impact on his power output. He simply remounts and resumes with the same efficiency. And maybe he falls because he is carrying too much power for a human to actually steer in some corners? And those spinning rear wheels after a fall?

He is a 67 kg "lightweight" who somehow has the raw horsepower to bully 80kg monsters on the cobbles, then turns around and drops pure mountain specialists the next week.
Just my opinion but the whole thing reeks of "artificial" from a mile away. An ostentatious mockery of the entire peloton. He is winning wherever, whenever, and however he wants. Seeing him still "at large" with these thermonuclear numbers is just embarrassing for cycling.

So you do not address any of the points I make, and you just repeat what you already believe.
Look at Pog trying to get up to speed once Wout attacked. If that is not contorting the whole body idk what is.
Also, I would like to express my satisfaction that road cycling is where it needs to be in terms of body type. I am very glad that people (Pog) know how to train nowadays and that even on flat-ish courses the best guy is not a bone breaker but a guy who can also climb. It is good to send the big heavy guys to the track.

 

[PedalOC]

I am very sceptical of this claim. I am sure technically its easy. But its not so easy to hide.

Is this motor so small it can't be seen in plain sight by any competent mechanic when they pull the bottom bracket apart after races (UCI policy)? A Google AI search also suggests even a 30Watt motor is quite heavy - at least a full pound (400 grams). This is because all electric motors require magnets made of primarily of iron.

According to what I read here none of Pogacar's bikes are checked after all of his wins or days wearing the yellow jersey? The only way that is possible is some kind of corruption. Assume this is what you are alluding to by "the right people"?

I think he's on a sophisticated program - not motors.

I'm also convinced he's juicing, but also using a motor. I calculated his power on Mur De Huy 2025 seated attack. He pushed 680 watts SEATED for 1 min 15 sec from he attacked to he let up on the gas 50 metres from the finish line. And he didn't even look like he was breathing heavily.

 

[BubbaChuck]

You literally have watts for muy 2 rows up,lmao.Ala was pushing 900 in 2021.

 

[jotafap]

You literally have watts for muy 2 rows up,lmao.Ala was pushing 900 in 2021.

Then it's clear Alaph was also using a motor back then...

 

[SorelyBoy]

Being selective in what evidence there is to somehow suggest or even claim that what Pogacar is doing is not particularly extraordinary, is not very convincing. Instead we need to look at all of the evidence available to ascertain whether or not what we are being sold is genuine greatness or something else entirely. Much of this evidence is, no doubt, circumstantial in its nature because it cannot be be otherwise unless and until a whistleblower comes forward to give sworn testimony or at least on or off the record accounts of what may or may not be the facts. Or a drug test is failed. Or a motor detected.

Indeed, given also that he effectively has enjoyed his unprecedented success riding for merely a renamed and more lavishly funded Saunier Duval team, whose history and leadership reputations need no further explanation, a historically aware cycling fan might be forgiven for thinking that our star cyclist’s credibility is already more than a little dubious from the outset.

In law, circumstantial evidence is not “weak.” It’s simply non‑direct. A jury can convict on it if the pattern of facts makes any innocent explanation implausible.

Sport works the same way:

• We know the approximate limits of human physiology.
• We know what elite performance normally looks like.
• We know how rare true outliers are.
• We know the sport’s history of deception.

So when someone performs far above a field of world‑class athletes, the performance itself becomes a data point that demands interpretation. Such evidence, when analysed holistically, provides enough information to strongly suggest, given the overall context of the sport’s history and current state, that Mr Pogacar is at least worthy of very close and sceptical attention. So, what’s the evidence, at least what we definitely know?

Pogačar wasn’t and isn’t beating amateurs — he was and is consistently beating the best in the world. By large margins and across all race types in an era of hyper specialisation. This is the part people often gloss over. We’ve had plenty of examples of that here. He wasn’t outperforming a weak generation. He wasn’t winning by a few seconds. He wasn’t simply “better.” He was:

• Younger
• More explosive
• More versatile
• More consistent
• More dominant across all terrains
• Dominant across the entire racing season
• More resilient under fatigue
• Immune to the impact of bad crashes
• Winning by often huge margins

And, since he turned professional, he was doing it against seasoned, highly trained, physiologically elite professionals and across all types of races across the entire race calendar, not merely targeting his efforts to ensure the best chance of success and guard against fatigue and injury. Able to beat anyone, anywhere at anytime. All the time.

When one rider suddenly appears head and shoulders above a field that is the fastest in history, it is natural — and rational — to ask what explains the gap. Not claim that there is none.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Being selective in what evidence there is to somehow suggest or even claim that what Pogacar is doing is not particularly extraordinary, is not very convincing. Instead we need to look at all of the evidence available to ascertain whether or not what we are being sold is genuine greatness or something else entirely. Much of this evidence is, no doubt, circumstantial in its nature because it cannot be be otherwise unless and until a whistleblower comes forward to give sworn testimony or at least on or off the record accounts of what may or may not be the facts.

Indeed, given also that he effectively has enjoyed his unprecedented success riding for merely a renamed and more lavishly funded Saunier Duval team, whose history and leadership reputations need no further explanation, a historically aware cycling fan might be forgiven our star cyclist’s credibility is already more than a little dubious from the outset.

In law, circumstantial evidence is not “weak.” It’s simply non‑direct. A jury can convict on it if the pattern of facts makes any innocent explanation implausible.

Sport works the same way:

• We know the approximate limits of human physiology.
• We know what elite performance normally looks like.
• We know how rare true outliers are.
• We know the sport’s history of deception.

So when someone performs far above a field of world‑class athletes, the performance itself becomes a data point that demands interpretation. Such evidence, when analysed holistically, provides enough information to strongly suggest, given the overall context of the sport’s history and current state, that Mr Pogacar is at least worthy of very close and sceptical attention. So, what’s the evidence, at least what we definitely know.

Pogačar wasn’t beating amateurs — he was beating the best in the world
This is the part people often gloss over. We’ve had plenty of examples of that here.
He wasn’t outperforming a weak generation. He wasn’t winning by a few seconds. He wasn’t simply “better.” He was:

• Younger
• More explosive
• More versatile
• More consistent
• More dominant across all terrains
• Dominant across the entire racing season
• More resilient under fatigue
• Immune to the impact of bad crashes
• Winning by often huge margins

And, since he turned professional, he was doing it against seasoned, highly trained, physiologically elite professionals and across all types of races across the entire race calendar, not merely targeting his efforts to ensure the best chance of success and guard against fatigue and injury. Able to beat anyone, anywhere at anytime. All the time.

When one rider suddenly appears head and shoulders above a field that is the fastest in history, it is natural — and rational — to ask what explains the gap. Not claim that there is none.

I was an early passenger on the Lance fraud train and the resulting forum wars that nearly sunk the Cyclingnews forum 20 some years ago, and yet I don't know what to make of Pogacar. Save for his very early years when he was tanking the Jr. Worlds as a 16 year old member of a Slovenian club team his progress has been linear but constantly upwards save for a pretty significant uptick in 2019 when he joined up with UAE albeit after beating a pretty good group at l'Avenir in 2018. Does that show that UAE was able to quickly establish a "program" that really worked for him or was it the natural progression of a supremely talented rider suddenly brought to focus on the job at hand.
If it was purely a case of getting suddenly and exponentially stronger then I would say "burn him, he's a witch", but every step of the way Pogi has shown an innate ability to improve on the non-doping aspects of his performances from sprinting to descending and every other sort of race craft.
In a sport where donkeys were routinely transformed into racehorses is Pogacar an example of the most complete version of this transformation or just the most naturally talented rider of all time (to this point)?
Or all of the above.

 

[Rou]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

 

[E_F_]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NQFFFWes3o4

Rides like this certainly don't help against the motor 'conspiracy'.
Who needs a leadout or hard pace when you can do that?
How easy was that, indeed? HAHAH

Looks strange, is lame, makes me mad. I honestly kind of want to think he's just using a motor, but I have no idea. The discussions on here a year ago certainly didn't leave me particularly convinced.

 

[peterfin]

I was an early passenger on the Lance fraud train and the resulting forum wars that nearly sunk the Cyclingnews forum 20 some years ago, and yet I don't know what to make of Pogacar. Save for his very early years when he was tanking the Jr. Worlds as a 16 year old member of a Slovenian club team his progress has been linear but constantly upwards save for a pretty significant uptick in 2019 when he joined up with UAE albeit after beating a pretty good group at l'Avenir in 2018. Does that show that UAE was able to quickly establish a "program" that really worked for him or was it the natural progression of a supremely talented rider suddenly brought to focus on the job at hand.
If it was purely a case of getting suddenly and exponentially stronger then I would say "burn him, he's a witch", but every step of the way Pogi has shown an innate ability to improve on the non-doping aspects of his performances from sprinting to descending and every other sort of race craft.
In a sport where donkeys were routinely transformed into racehorses is Pogacar an example of the most complete version of this transformation or just the most naturally talented rider of all time (to this point)?
Or all of the above.

You do forget the uptick from 2023 to 2024. It was a giant jump. To appreciate it, just check his yearly average performance at Watts2win. Their method has its limits but the relative performance tells you something. There was a huge jump when joining UAE (2019) and a huge jump when changing his 'training' according to the prophet mou in 2024. https://watts2win.eu/nl/cyclist/2043/performance

 

[BubbaChuck]

jonas made same jump and he is chump. he almost died between. and noone in history made his jump in 2020. look at seixas jumping since he came out of lab.

 

[BubbaChuck]

We are here.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FpKBmixJER8