TdF Stage 12 - Fri 16th - Bourg-de-Péage - Mende 210.5km

[hrotha]

Are you really that ignorant?

Andy attacked in the first cycle of mountains because he needs time anywhere he can, Bertje just followed because it's way too early in the race for him.
Today CSC has to chase Vino all day, in the end J-Rod attacks, AC follows and sees that Schlecklet can't.

If you can't figure out why the rest happened as it happened you need to watch more cycling.

Thank you for the insult. I've watched lots of cycling, thank you very much.

AS couldn't follow, but there's no way AC could gain any significant time on him. Realistically it was about the stage win. What AC did didn't improve his chances of taking the stage win.

But whatever. This thread has become a disgrace.

 

[flicker]

I don't think that was Contador did was wrong in essence, and I do believe in most teams the same decision would be made if the leader was coming up and taking time on the yellow. But you do have to realise that this is Vino's team (yeye AC is the best cyclist but without Vino there would be no Astana) so like I said before, if Vino's ok with it it was a great move, if it ****ed Vino off in the long run AC is gonna regret it, regardless if it was the right thing to do or not.

GC contentions trumps Vinos personal stage win. Fine and dandy, way to ride Alberto.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Astana tactics were pathetic.
They missed a golden opportunity for Contador to get dropped and lose a few minutes, thus bluffing everyone.
He could then sneak away and try to get a stage win and lift the team in the all important team classification, at the same time.

Look at Lance, he knows how this game is played.

 

[auscyclefan94]

That wasn't Levi. It was Kloden.

My bad! As i said, If your opponents are hurting then you hit em!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

then you better go get some more make believe bullets for your make believe gun. You're gonna need 'em.

lmfao!!!!!

 

[frizzlefry]

This thread is absolute confirmation of the chasm that exists between Lance fans and fans who actually watch the sport.

What? You are the one who brought LA/RS into a discussion that did not involve them. LA/RS were non factors in the end of todays stage. The discussion has nothing to with them yet you insist on bringing them into it.
Like I said, its called DEFLECTION.

 

[indurain666]

I think Alberto should really consider signing with Astana. If Astana would be 100% committed to Alberto, Vino should have never been on that break. He should have stayed with Alberto and should have forced the pace at the bottom of the climb in order to launch Alberto's attack. IIRC, Alberto had no teammates at the bottom of the climb, he was just following Saxo Bank wheels!

Again, the best rider in the world is going to win the TDF with a mediocre disorganized team.

 

[koolkinks]

This thread is absolute confirmation of the chasm that exists between Lance fans and fans who actually watch the sport.

Absolutely true. It was amazing to hear the dynamic duo of Phil and Paul explain Armstrong being dropped on the final climb as "Oh!! He doesn't want to race in this stage he is saving himself for other stages." The guy just can't keep up when the road ramps up and these two jokers can't get past their Lance obsession. I guess if Lance himself told Phil and Paul that he was not good enough they would make it out that he was being modest and giving other riders an opportunity. Pity I can't understand other languages I would follow another stream.

 

[klodifan]

So... Which other team leaders have intentionally dropped GC seconds for the sake of a teammate?

Basso - no
Contador - no
Gesink - No
Kreuziger - No
Menchov - No
Rodriguez - No
Sanchez - No
Schleck - No
JVdB - No

But Contador is selfish and not a team man!

It's all about interpretation, but if we look at history, today's tactics would suggest AC is once again, not a team player. AC has proven time and again that he is not a team man. He is taking after LA... win at all costs. Both bite.

The argument that Vino would not have been able to match Rod is faulty. At the end of the stage he was a mere few seconds behind the lead group. He may have eased up because he believed his team leader would get the stage win. Had Contadope not been there, we could have seen a battle between Vino and Rod. It is not fair to automatically assume Rod would have won anyway.

I feel badly for Vino... yet considering his history as well, then today's outcome is just desserts.

 

[Publicus]

Thank you for the insult. I've watched lots of cycling, thank you very much.

AS couldn't follow, but there's no way AC could gain any significant time on him. Realistically it was about the stage win. What AC did didn't improve his chances of taking the stage win.

But whatever. This thread has become a disgrace.

I think you are grossly mischaracterizing what happened today. It wasn't about the stage win at all. It was about time and the psychological hammer that AC just laid on Schleck. It would have been great if Vino could have gotten the win, no doubt, but are you seriously contending that Vino would have held off Rodriguez? It was clear from iphone stream that Vino was in a world of hurt when J Rod and AC reached him and he couldn't follow. AC's job is not to sit and pace him to the line at that point. It is to get maximum time against Andy. Unless you think a Vino stage win is the ultimate Astana goal, then I don't get what your issue is with how the stage played out.

 

[kurtinsc]

I think it's nice of Armstrong in his final tour to show us what should have happened all those years.

I think he's not wasting any energy at this point. He's either going through the motions... or saving up for a stage somwhere.

I'm not sure how far behind he'd need to be to be let go early on a stage. He might be getting to that point though. I don't think it's being a "fanboy" to think that if he cared about finishing with the group on these stages that he could do so.

He clearly doesn't care. I don't know how to tell if it's tactical (losing time to be allowed to go) or just "giving up".

 

[Ferminal]

I think Alberto should really consider signing with Astana. If Astana would be 100% committed to Alberto, Vino should have never been on that break. He should have stayed with Alberto and should have forced the pace at the bottom of the climb in order to launch Alberto's attack. IIRC, Alberto had no teammates at the bottom of the climb, he was just following Saxo Bank wheels!

Again, the best rider in the world is going to win the TDF with a mediocre disorganized team.

What do you mean? If I were Astana management I would never sign a rider like Alberto who never cares about the team!

 

[ak-zaaf]

T
AS couldn't follow, but there's no way AC could gain any significant time on him. Realistically it was about the stage win. What AC did didn't improve his chances of taking the stage win.

I'm sorry if I've mistaken you for the string of July posters, but you would know that Schleck looked like he collapsed a bit.
There are similar cases where gaps grew to 30-40 seconds on the flat last km's.
Maybe AC isn't that confident about his form with the Pyrenees coming. But in any case if you think you can take time on your only competitor for the yellow in Paris you always should. Teammate up the road or not.

 

[Thee_chisa]

Thank you for the insult. I've watched lots of cycling, thank you very much.

AS couldn't follow, but there's no way AC could gain any significant time on him. Realistically it was about the stage win. What AC did didn't improve his chances of taking the stage win.

But whatever. This thread has become a disgrace.

contador wouldn't have attacked if rodriguez hadn't gone. he wanted a stage win for astana and if rodriguez caught vino, vino had no chance after being in a break all day. if vino wasn't up the road i would have expected conta to have attacked a lot earlier

 

[Ramira]

I think Alberto should really consider signing with Astana. If Astana would be 100% committed to Alberto, Vino should have never been on that break. He should have stayed with Alberto and should have forced the pace at the bottom of the climb in order to launch Alberto's attack. IIRC, Alberto had no teammates at the bottom of the climb, he was just following Saxo Bank wheels!

Again, the best rider in the world is going to win the TDF with a mediocre disorganized team.

Actually Vino going in the break was the perfect tactics, it forced Saxo to ride and allowed Astana to sit back and relax, and tactically it worked out the way they wanted to. The only question is whether or not Contador pulling Rodriguez that last 500m to get a few more seconds on Schlek was team tactics or him going off on his own, if it was tactics it was brilliant, if it was Contador acting on his own he's probably going to have to buy Vinokourov a nice watch like he did for LA.

 

[flicker]

It's all about interpretation, but if we look at history, today's tactics would suggest AC is once again, not a team player. AC has proven time and again that he is not a team man. He is taking after LA... win at all costs. Both bite.

The argument that Vino would not have been able to match Rod is faulty. At the end of the stage he was a mere few seconds behind the lead group. He may have eased up because he believed his team leader would get the stage win. Had Contadope not been there, we could have seen a battle between Vino and Rod. It is not fair to automatically assume Rod would have won anyway.

I feel badly for Vino... yet considering his history as well, then today's outcome is just desserts.

Yeah it woulda been great to see Vino win today and make a speech about the classy way he has taken revenge upon the dope testers. I woulda loved that!

 

[goggalor]

Astana today was similar to Saxo in stage 9, when Voigt was dropped 500 m from the KOM: in that it was a sound tactical move, but poorly timed. If Vino had a few more seconds going into the climb, it would've been perfect. Mais, c'est la vie etc.

No way Vino would've beaten Rodriguez, though, he was cooked.

Also good to see Schlecklette put in her place.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

What? You are the one who brought LA/RS into a discussion that did not involve them. LA/RS were non factors in the end of todays stage. The discussion has nothing to with them yet you insist on bringing them into it.
Like I said, its called DEFLECTION.

No. You're the RadioShack fanboy attacking Contador because you don't understand cycling tactics. Which is par for the course for your type.

But don't let me stop you from exposing your ignorance. Please, keep going. You're making this fun.

 

[Beech Mtn]

You did spot that there are other riders on the road too, yes?

Sure, don't take 10 secs on the guy you are trailing and watch Vino lose the stage to Ridriguez anyway makes so much more sense.

Good luck stirring.

I love how the other day when Andy took 10 seconds out of Alberto, 10 seconds was very important, Andy was much stronger than AC, etc. Now suddenly people are claiming that 10 seconds doesn't matter, was a waste of a Vino stage win because AC is clearly better than Andy in the mountains.

It's the Tour - there are still a lot of KMs left. Anything can happen. On a climb, on the TT, crash on a flat stage, etc. Anything can happen. Alberto was smart to take those 10 seconds.

When JRod attacked the first time, and VDB2 went with him, Alberto didn't go. Then the group started looking antsy, JRod was still ahead, and AC had to go. Vino was going to get caught anyway. AC had to go and take the time on Andy (and the others) while he could.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I feel badly for Vino... yet considering his history as well, then today's outcome is just desserts.

Yeah but I think he has paid already. Doesn't mean I like the guy. I think the big losers today are RSH as they have lost time in the teams classification. I think that is the big story!

I think AC was going for time because if Alberto thought he could be Joaquim Rodriguez in a sprint while leading out the sprint into a head wind well then the guy is dreaming. All about time.

 

[peacefultribe]

Great tactics by Astana. It was perfect, but Vino just couldn't hang in there. Vino came into this tour wanting to win the GC with Alberto. He knows the drill. You could see early in the climb that Contador was going to attack. He has that look about him when it's going to happen. He was probably waiting a bit to give Vino as much of a cushion as possible, and hoping that Vino would be able to stay with him. Ten seconds to a GC rider is a lot. It had to be done. I would expect Vino to be frustrated, but not necessarily with his teammate. He was so close to a stage win. Very frustrating.

 

[Anonymous]

Weighing in here, I could understand Contador's attack to catch Rodriquez if Rodriguez were a legitimate contender for yellow. As it was, while I laugh a little at Schlecklet having to swallow the fact that he can be dropped, I also think that the 10 seconds were not worth possibly screwing your teammate. Rodriquez probably would have caught Vino, but to say how the race would have played out in the absence of Contador's presence is not really fair. It very well could be that if Contador were not there, the catch could have taken longer, or when caught not moved off as quickly.

Obviously, when the reached they top, Contador slowed down because he went to the front, and Vino did catch them a little. But was that really worth the 10 seconds? I guess it depends on what the atmosphere is at this second on the Astana team bus. I am guessing that Vino is p!ssed, and to say he has no right to be is not correct IMO.

While I think Frizzle Fry is mostly reacting out of being a Lance fan, I also thinks he asks a legitimate question: What would be the reaction if it were Armstrong who had done a similar thing?

 

[Ferminal]

When JRod attacked the first time, and VDB2 went with him, Alberto didn't go. Then the group started looking antsy, JRod was still ahead, and AC had to go. Vino was going to get caught anyway. AC had to go and take the time on Andy (and the others) while he could.

I agree - and there's no point in AC wasting that huge effort to join Rodriguez if he's not going to make it stick (either for the stage win or seconds on Schleck).

 

[hrotha]

I think you are grossly mischaracterizing what happened today. It wasn't about the stage win at all. It was about time and the psychological hammer that AC just laid on Schleck. It would have been great if Vino could have gotten the win, no doubt, but are you seriously contending that Vino would have held off Rodriguez? It was clear from iphone stream that Vino was in a world of hurt when J Rod and AC reached him and he couldn't follow. AC's job is not to sit and pace him to the line at that point. It is to get maximum time against Andy. Unless you think a Vino stage win is the ultimate Astana goal, then I don't get what your issue is with how the stage played out.

No, I don't think Vino could have followed JR's wheel when he passed him. I do think however that an uncooperative AC might have made Vino's comeback possible, and then he could have attacked, and that would have improved Astana's chances because JR is faster than AC.

As for the time gained on AS, it's not significant, just like AS's time gain in that other stage wasn't significant (didn't keep Andy from talking though). The psychological blow had already been administered when AS was dropped.

I'm just saying that, in such a situation, the stage win was the most important thing, and the only truly valuable thing to be gained from the situation. I'm not saying that Vino should have taken it, and I'm not saying Contador is a bad teammate. I'm just questioning his grasp of tactics.

And this has nothing to do with LA & RadioShack.

 

[therhodeo]

I think Alberto should really consider signing with Astana. If Astana would be 100% committed to Alberto, Vino should have never been on that break. He should have stayed with Alberto and should have forced the pace at the bottom of the climb in order to launch Alberto's attack. IIRC, Alberto had no teammates at the bottom of the climb, he was just following Saxo Bank wheels!

Again, the best rider in the world is going to win the TDF with a mediocre disorganized team.

Or not. Vino forced Saxo to burn up on the front of the Peloton chasing him and Alberto launched anyway. Alberto's probably the only guy in the peloton who doesn't need guys around him at the base of the climb.