TDF Stage 15 - Monday, July 19 2010, Pamiers - Bagnères-de-Luchon, 187 km

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Dedelou said:
Look again.. Contador was fast coming back on both Andy and Vino.. vino seemed to slow when he hears Andy's troubles and Alberto , and crew goes by.

I don't know about that, it look like Andy was hitting it pretty hard, Vino was just on the point of either bridging or blowing, and Contador was coming up to Vino's wheel. Andy had a few bike lengths and lost momentum immediately when his chain tangled. I just don't think there's any way to tell how it would have turned out. Which is why I think it's easiest to just say it's too bad that things turned out this way, but they are the way they are. Tourmalet should at least be fun.
 
Mar 22, 2010
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ok, gotta get back to work. If it was me, I'd have raced first and then asked questions later. Which appears to be what Alberto did. History will have to judge.
 
Jul 3, 2010
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Dedelou said:
yeah yeah.. spartacus to the rescue. Stop the tour andy is in trouble. stop the tour stop the tour . Pleassssssssssee..

everyone who keeps referring to this ignores the fact that contador fell too with bloody hip and elbow scrapes as did like half the peloton. it was a safety issue at that point because of the oil all over the road. not saying it did not work to andy's favor, but it's not accurate to act like cancellara stopped the race bec andy fell and ignore all the other carnage on the road, including ac.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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lilyprotector said:
everyone who keeps referring to this ignores the fact that contador fell too with bloody hip and elbow scrapes as did like half the peloton. it was a safety issue at that point because of the oil all over the road. not saying it did not work to andy's favor, but it's not accurate to act like cancellara stopped the race bec andy fell and ignore all the other carnage on the road, including ac.

There was one reason Canc pulled that off and one reason only: Andy fell.
 
Nov 24, 2009
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I just watch a replay of it on the +1, contador would have been right on AS wheel if AS hadn't stopped. He gapped the Menchov / VDB2 / Samu group very quickly
 
Jul 19, 2010
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alberto.legstrong said:
ok, gotta get back to work. If it was me, I'd have raced first and then asked questions later. Which appears to be what Alberto did. History will have to judge.

No, clearly AC should have stopped to have a chat with AS and helped him fix the bike. That may have kept the AC haters quiet :D
 
Feb 28, 2010
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-myra- said:
Yeah, actually they do.

The race is on bicycles, they are mechanical objects. They are part of the race.

If the race is in part determined by the mechanics of the team, or by a rider being ham fisted - that's just part of it.

Anyone remember David Millar's chain falling off in the prologue? Mechanicals happen when mechanical devices are at the centre of the event.

Exactly, were there arguments then that Millar should have been given another go?
 
Jul 28, 2009
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lostintime said:
AC though ...... lets just say honor isn't in the vocabulary. He still has a lot to learn.

Unfortunately, he had Saiz and Bruyneel as directeurs sportifs. And even Martinelli, seeing the 2004 Giro d'Italia, he's not a better example, too.
 
Personally I too was surprised that AC didn't stop and show AS how to put his chain back on for him and then give him a push start with Vino there to lead him back into the group.

Now that would have been classy.

But you never know how long you have to hang around when you do the Good Samaritan. The mechanical could have lasted minutes then Samu & Denis would have gained too much.
 
Jul 3, 2010
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Pleadthe5th said:
It looked to me like even Vino had the class to stop attacking when he saw Andy drop his chain. Alberto capitalized on it and that's poor form in my opinion. And 2 wrongs never make a right.
'

i thought the same exact thing. vino seemed to have slowed to wait for schleck bec of the mechanical. that's saying something about ac when vino outclasses you!
 
Feb 28, 2010
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TourOfSardinia said:
Personally I was surprised that AC didn't stop and show AS how to put his chain back on for him and then give him a push start with Vino there to lead him back into the group.

Now that would have been classy.

But you never know how long you have to hang around when you do the Good Samaritan. The mechanical could have lasted minutes then Samu & Denis would have gained too much.

No he should have given up his bike for Andy at the very least!
 
May 14, 2010
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red_flanders said:
I've lost a lot of respect for Contador today. He should have waited. Forget Menchov and Sanchez--this is and always was between Schleck and Contador.

That said, those who are proclaiming that Andy is the strongest rider in the race, that somehow he was burying Contador--you're wrong. That has not yet been revealed. Contador was down a few riders in the group when AS attacked, and was bridging easily and rapidly when the mechanical went down.

I look for a huge battle on the Tourmalet. I don't know who will win. One thing for certain, it's not clear who the strongest is.

What Contador did today was poor, poor form. Forget stage 2 and 3, that was week one stuff. It doesn't matter. You don't attack the yellow jersey on a mountain pass in week 3 when there's a mechanical. His yellow is an embarrassment today.

The Tourmalet will decide the race. The only way for partial redemption for Contador is if he wins on that climb. His victory will still be tainted though.

+1! Ditto that. Everything you just said. And certainly it is poor form. Very poor form. I frankly can't stand Schleck - either of them, but especially Andy. But it doesn't matter. You don't attack the yellow jersey when he's down due to a crash or a mechanical.

hrotha said:
Well that was disgraceful. I'm not sure Menchov and Samu are to blame, considering they were responding to AC's attack and it's unlikely they all could have agreed to wait after that.

No, it's not illegal. No, I don't know if Andy would have waited. No, I don't think Andy was dropping AC. No, this has nothing to do with stages 2 & 3 in my opinion.

If you've soft-pedalled two or three mountain stages waiting for the Tourmalet to settle everything, then wait another extra minute until Andy catches up. This wasn't good.

Also, this is why throwing away mountain stages and putting all your eggs in the same Tourmalet basket is not a good idea. I hope Riis & Andy got the memo.

+1

Pleadthe5th said:
I am so so so happy for Tommy he is such a decent, nice guy I know the peleton will be happy for him also.

It looked to me like even Vino had the class to stop attacking when he saw Andy drop his chain. Alberto capitalized on it and that's poor form in my opinion. And 2 wrongs never make a right.

Alberto had a golden opportunity to prove he is a true champion, the next patron of the peleton, and gain the respect of his peers and fans alike. Instead, he is truly "yellow" tonight and will have to deal with crowds booing him. There is a big stain on his yellow jersey. He would have gained so much respect from everyone, if he would have just sat up and not seem to attack when the MJ was in difficulty.

As far as LA and the shack now wanting to help Saxo and AS? What can they really do? Lance was never even in contention today for the stage win and I know for a fact he really wanted this stage.

Exactly. Such a big stain, in fact, that it wouuld be better not to have the jersey than to have one like that. This is worse than getting caught doping, IMO - here, it's out in the open that you have no character.

I will say that I am surprised Phil Liggett is OK with this. That man knows cycling, but this is clearly indefensible. Shame on Contador.
 
Jun 29, 2010
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Everyone assuming AC was dozing at the back but could this scenario be feasible?

AC drops back to lure AS into attacking - Vino straight to the wheel but AC hangs back - AS thinking he has broken AC rides like hell only for AC to bridge and possibly use Vino to distance him on the descent.

I may be way off here but I don't think AC has bad legs at all and he will show AS who the big boss is on Thursday.

That being said I do think the boys should have ridden tempo and allowed him back on
 
Jul 3, 2010
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Biffinator said:
You have to be kidding that you think Alberto didn't know Andy had a mechanical. Come on.

esp since ac was BEHIND schleck a good enough amount that he had time to see the situation clearly. maybe he thought andy was just tired and wanted to get off his bike for a rest and being the sharp pistolero that he is, decided it was the best time to attack!
 
Nov 2, 2009
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Publicus said:
I don't think he knew that Andy had come to a full stop. I think folks need to slow down and remember this was a race. He didn't have the benefit of a pause button, or instant replay or anything like that. He saw Andy slow down. I don't know if he saw him get off his bike. But all of this happened in the course of Andy laying down an attack while AC was at the back, and AC closing down that attack after getting through the pack. Instantaneous decisions were made and we have our result.

I don't see the distinction between this stage and stage 3.

And if all of us here can't come to a consensus on this, how can we blame someone who makes a decision in a split second?
 
ericthesportsman6 said:
Have to disagree, AC was responding, and I don't think he went full speed up the rest of the climb considering how much he was looking back.
again the dance of If if if .. to me andy attacked on the big chain ring when he thought it was the right time and Conti was not looking , Vino reacted and was almost on andy's wheel with Contador actually filling the gap so fast that when andy shifts back to the small chain ring and throws the chain.. vino is with him and slows a little , while conti blows by as he was about to do anyway.. it took about another 10 second for everybody to ease and then they head to the summit at a good pace checking to make sure Andy has a chance to get back. they run out of road fast and the gap at the top is 15 seconds which andy should have made up. Bad break for andy ..
 
Mar 19, 2009
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To me , the whole point of this is neither Contador, Sanchex, nor Menchov had the balls to tell each other to slow. It's like three scared amigos running after stealing cookies from the cookie jar. No honor in that. The French crowd are no dumbasses ..... and booed accordingly.
 
May 13, 2009
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khardung la said:
So:

AS crashes badly before Spa, Contador waits for him because Cancellara makes a show. AS was over that day, Contador forgave him.

The next day Contador (and many others together, including FS) crashed. AS pulled by Cancellara did not wait. Contador had a mechanical also (broken spoke).

AS passes from being some time far from Contador after his awful TT to be in front of him.

AS attacks for the first time (!!!) in the Pyrinees, when Contador is back of the pack for whatever reason, probably getting to his team's car. AS does not have a proper mechanical (it was not a flat tyre for example), but does not manage to shift properly his gear. Contador reacts to the attack and looks back several times while climbing, obviously not giving all out wondering what to do. After some 1-2 minutes he prepares himself to follow the descend of SS, a great wheel to follow in the descend.

If Contador would have wait for AS cycling would be lame. One thing is a crash because a guy in the audience gets in the middle, other is giving more chances with no reason.

Contador should have finished Schleck in Spa.

Well ridden by AS, I hope he can be as strong in the Tourmalet.

Very amateur mistake by AS, shifting gears while you are outputting 1kW at 60 rpm...

Couldn't agree more. AS attacked when the pack was like 10 guys deep. Vino answered the attack easily. If AS thinks he is going to kill AC by putting one of those...10minutes of easy tempo with a group of 20 and then accelerate over the last kilometer attacks..he is daydreaming.


Vino answered the attack..enough said:cool:
 
Jul 3, 2010
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it's not about who you like or don't like, it's the mj

there are a lot of comments flying about people making comments only because they hate this or that person and will do anything to criticize them.

regardless of how i feel about the individual riders today, i would be saying the same thing, as i think many people here would. it's not about the individual rider. AND it's not about who fell on what day and who didn't stop. to me, there is a consideration afforded the mj, it's part and parcel of this race. if you're racing in the front and the mj is nowhere in sight, that's one thing, but if the mj is RIGHT THERE and kicking ***, and has a mechanical or fall, you don't keep racing until he's back on. you ride tempo and you sure as hec don't go on the attack. that's it.

here is a quote from a 2003 new york times article about this very topic, when the racers waited for the mj, who was la at the time, after a fall:

" But when Lance Armstrong caught his handlebars on a fan's tote bag and crashed to the pavement last month during the 15th stage of the Tour de France -- a crucial climb to the Pyrenees ski village of Luz-Ardiden -- Armstrong's rivals slowed down and waited for him to recover, forsaking the chance to leave him behind.

At the time, race fans heard much about cycling's first unwritten rule: Thou shalt not ride away from the race leader when he is on the ground, stopping to relieve himself, or at other unsporting moments. Commentators agreed after the race that all of Armstrong's closest rivals appeared to heed the rule, including Jan Ullrich, who at the time trailed Armstrong in the overall standing by a mere 15 seconds.

But by doing so, Ullrich and the others not only allowed Armstrong to catch up. They also gave him a chance to win the stage -- and arguably the Tour itself, both of which he did. Ullrich finished second, for the fifth time over all and the third time to Armstrong. "
 
Spare Tyre said:
And if all of us here can't come to a consensus on this, how can we blame someone who makes a decision in a split second?

Exactly. This was a race situation, just like Stage 3, were folks react and everything that follows is part of the story of that stage.

And I am not suggesting that AC didn't eventually find out what had happened to AS, I am saying that at the moment it occurred, it wasn't clear WHAT had happened to Andy, just that he had slowed down (he hadn't come to a full stop). He could have just shut down the attack once it was clear that Vino was closing him down and AC was in hot pursuit. All I saw was AC blow by Andy. It was only after Andy got off his bike that it was clear.

And here's a good question: Clearly Menchov and Sanchez and the rest of the trailing GC group saw what had happened (since they were behind AC), why didn't any of them stop racing as well?
 
Jul 3, 2010
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Publicus said:
And here's a good question: Clearly Menchov and Sanchez and the rest of the trailing GC group saw what had happened (since they were behind AC), why didn't any of them stop racing as well?

they should have, but when they started attacking it fed the pack mentality. contador was the heavy of the group, most clout, should have told the two to cut it and ride tempo until schleck was back.