Team Astana's shameful legacy

[Scott SoCal]

Also, I can't really understand why Sinyard would want his brand associated with this team.

Specialized bike sales blowing up in Central Asia these days?

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Then why join the MPCC marketing group?

I don' really know enough about MPCC to say what the pros and cons of joining are. There are dirty teams in and media-savvy teams not in (and vice versa)

 

[fmk_RoI]

I think this list has to be the longest list on dopeology for active teams, that's a pretty big achievement.

Not if you look at how that site is organised. Astana hasn't changed its name - and thus become another team on that site - since it took over in 2006/7. Cofidis is perhaps comparable - in terms of having the same name (but for a longer time - look at how big their page is http://www.dopeology.org/teams/Cofidis/ )

You would need to consolidate pages for other teams like Movistar etc in order to really do a proper comparison and then find a way to account for age.

 

[peloton]

Then why join the MPCC marketing group?

Apparently they feared their WT license might get pulled (like http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/10/ ... IpRmVlo.99]Katusha[/URL] for awhile)

It’s rumored that when Astana joined the MPCC, in December 2012, it was because the team was scared due to the fact that Katusha did not (initially) receive a 2013 WorldTour license

 

[Benotti69]

Also, I can't really understand why Sinyard would want his brand associated with this team.

Specialized bike sales blowing up in Central Asia these days?

No such thing as bad publicity, ask Festina.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not if you look at how that site is organised. Astana hasn't changed its name - and thus become another team on that site - since it took over in 2006/7. Cofidis is perhaps comparable - in terms of having the same name (but for a longer time - look at how big their page is http://www.dopeology.org/teams/Cofidis/ )

You would need to consolidate pages for other teams like Movistar etc in order to really do a proper comparison and then find a way to account for age.

Positives pa would be one metric, or # riders with an entry ÷ # riders contracted (i.e. % team's riders with dopeology entries).

Using the first metric, Movistar would seem quite clean since their last upheld positive (Costa's was overturned) is Marco Fertonani back in 2007*, but under the 2nd things change (the hiring of a number of riders with either previous bans or dubious history, e.g. Plaza, Ventoso, Moreau, and some serious doping apologists like Horrach). On the other hand, because of the ridiculousness of the 90s and early 2000s, this would then automatically place teams with long lineages, like Lotto, Movistar, Belkin and Cofidis, at a disadvantage even though the teams now are vastly different from those in years gone by. You also have the problem of ascertaining lineage. Does Leopard count as a new team in 2011 or does it split off from Riis? Does Radioshack count as a continuation of USPS/Discovery, or does that die off? Does Astana '08-'09 continue Liberty Seguros or USPS' lineage? Does Radioshack count as a continuation of that? Does BMC inherit Phonak's lineage? Is Trek Leopard or Radioshack or both? Does Lampre inherit both its own AND Saeco's lineage?

*not only is there no positive test with Valverde, but though his ban was served 2010-11, the offences he was sanctioned for dated from 2004-6 so predate Fertonani's. Visconti's pseudo-ban is a moot point although there was no positive test in relation to it either.

 

[frenchfry]

Astana's history is riddled with doping suspensions and fraudulent riders. Let's take a look:

Vinokourov - doping suspension for EPO - now team manager - upon return, accused of buying the gold medal.
Kash - doping suspension for EPO
Iglinsky 1 - doping suspension for EPO
Iglinsky 2 - doping suspension for EPO
Contador - doping suspension for clenbuterol - loses 2 grand tours

Former team of Lance Armstrong, Levi Leipheimer
Former DS - Johan Bruyneel

Now, they're the reigning Tour champions. I think we're at the point where we have to resign ourselves to the fact that really nothing has changed in this sport.

Have we really ever been at any other point?

For a sport that has cleaned itself up, there certainly is a lot of doping news lately.

 

[fmk_RoI]

For a sport that has cleaned itself up, there certainly is a lot of doping news lately.

But is there, really? AT WT level we've had Impey, Ulissi, Kreuziger and the two Iglinskiys this year. That's from a cohort of what, c500 riders? 1%? A lot?

Yes, there has also been the clear-up from previous years, most notably Ballan, Sinkewitz, Savoldelli, Tiernan-Locke, Barredo, Menchov, Rogers etc, with only maybe three of them really being noticed.

(The only 'oddity' is there has been a run from the Tiernan-Locke decision, thru the Impey decision, issues with the Kreuziger and Ulissi cases, and then the two Iglinskiy cases, all in a space of a few months.)

There has been concern over borderline drugs - stuff that's clearly unethical but not actually been banned. And there's been concern over the legalised doping of the TUE regime. And - of course - the normal finger-pointing (though the watts case has been much quieter this year). And that concern and talk has probably been one of the healthiest things to hit the sport in ages.

 

[Parker]

You also have the problem of ascertaining lineage. Does Leopard count as a new team in 2011 or does it split off from Riis? Does Radioshack count as a continuation of USPS/Discovery, or does that die off? Does Astana '08-'09 continue Liberty Seguros or USPS' lineage? Does Radioshack count as a continuation of that? Does BMC inherit Phonak's lineage? Is Trek Leopard or Radioshack or both? Does Lampre inherit both its own AND Saeco's lineage?

I guess you follow the licence.
So Leopard - a new team/spin-off from Saxo
Radioshack - new team/spin-off from Astana
Astana - ex- Liberty S
BMC - new team
Trek - probably both as both licences went to one team and one was relinquished
Lampre - can't remember. Both I think

 

[fmk_RoI]

You also have the problem of ascertaining lineage.

Oh gosh, yes, it is so hard, almost as difficult as trying to work out whether Sam & Cat is a spin-off from iCarly or Victorious.

For the record: Trek (Leopard) was a new team (broke away from CSC). USPS ended with Disco and Radioshack was a new team. Astana is ONCE/Liberty Seguros and no other team. BMC is not Phonak (or 7-Eleven/Motorola for that matter). And when it comes to mergers, one team dies (Garmin will not inherit Cannondale's heritage).

 

[MarkvW]

The yuck factor of Astana isn't much worse than the yuck factors of Rabobank, Gerolsteiner, Phonak, and Lampre (just to name a few).

Pro cycling is a chemistry experiment where willing young men are guinea pigs for untrained amateur mad scientists.

Astana is "normal" for pro cycling.

 

[sniper]

The yuck factor of Astana isn't much worse than the yuck factors of Ranobank, Gerolsteiner, Phonak, and Lampe (just to name a few).

Pro cycling is a chemistry experiment where willing young men are guinea pigs for untrained amateur mad scientists.

Astana is "normal" for pro cycling.

plus we don't know what exactly is going on behind the anti-doping scenes.
as Dirtyworks suggested, there could be political motives behind the flood of Astana positives.
anyway It's sad to see Eastern Europe taking such heavy blows.
Luckily for Poland Majka and Kwiatkowski are probably already too big to fail.

 

[mrhender]

Maybe Vino didn't volunteer for the "thruth" comisssion...
Same as Riis...
Meanwhile Ulissi and Impey get's a free pass...
Hmm....

 

[The Hitch]

Is that Mende, col du jalabert?

 

[the sceptic]

Astana is a joke but not even top 3 of the most juiced up teams in cycling right now.

 

[hrotha]

Astana is a joke but not even top 3 of the most juiced up teams in cycling right now.

Which teams would those be, and why do you think so?

 

[MarkvW]

Which teams would those be, and why do you think so?

Lampre would appear to be one good candidate.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Which teams would those be, and why do you think so?

Movistar, Saxo, BMC, Garmin, Sky, Green Edge, Omega-Pharma, Belkin, Cannondale, Giant Shimano, Katusha, Lotto, pop quiz which is the worst and why?

 

[May0maniac]

les dieux sont des cons aussi parfois mais ca va...

you have nice arguments guys but all i see it's an absolutely awesome team with a nike kit that plays by the peloton rules...

2015 should be hardcore with tinkov vs kazakhs vs british empires. enjoy

Let's just hope that Cataldo will help Astana like Rogers helped Tinkoff...

 

[42x16ss]

les dieux sont des cons aussi parfois mais ca va...

you have nice arguments guys but all i see it's an absolutely awesome team with a nike kit that plays by the peloton rules...

2015 should be hardcore with tinkov vs kazakhs vs british empires. enjoy

You forgot Katusha and the Spanish Armada at Movistar!

 

[jens_attacks]

Is that Mende, col du jalabert?

yep,one of my favourite pics

You forgot Katusha and the Spanish Armada at Movistar!

yes it's hard to keep up nowadays. see what they did on superga this week. what lance said about ONCE to tyler remember...it's october and these guys...hehe

we even have a lavenu mob nowadays,pretty cool

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Let's just hope that Cataldo will help Astana like Rogers helped Tinkoff...

Cataldo went backwards when he joined Sky. The only riders who have made suspicious improvements at Sky are Froome, Wiggins and Porte. Clearly Cataldo would have nothing on Sky which could help anyone else. Makes me laugh that Sky are still painted as the bad guys when a team like Astana probably have every rider on their squad doped to the gills.

 

[May0maniac]

Cataldo went backwards when he joined Sky. The only riders who have made suspicious improvements at Sky are Froome, Wiggins and Porte. Clearly Cataldo would have nothing on Sky which could help anyone else. Makes me laugh that Sky are still painted as the bad guys when a team like Astana probably have every rider on their squad doped to the gills.

No, you could say that if we were talking about last years Astana. This year only 3-4 Riders at Astana performed at their usual level or improved. Nibali, Aru, Westra and Lutsenko. Kangert, Scarponi, Birdsong and the rest of the classics team had a bad season. Landa rode decent in a few one week races but wasn't even a great domestique for aru in the GTs. You could say that they had a little bit of bad luck with injuries, but they never went full *** like Tinkoff.

 

[Netserk]

Is that Mende, col du jalabert?

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=s...xVs1wjbEIMWTQvdjUJXI3hzeX06VDXE2jRn7A8Vp6YlQs

 

[Dazed and Confused]

No, you could say that if we were talking about last years Astana. This year only 3-4 Riders at Astana performed at their usual level or improved. Nibali, Aru, Westra and Lutsenko. Kangert, Scarponi, Birdsong and the rest of the classics team had a bad season. Landa rode decent in a few one week races but wasn't even a great domestique for aru in the GTs. You could say that they had a little bit of bad luck with injuries, but they never went full *** like Tinkoff.

Most results on Tinkoff comes from just a few riders, very similar to Astana.
Can't see any difference between them in terms on width.