Team Astana's shameful legacy

[Benotti69]

Cataldo went backwards when he joined Sky. The only riders who have made suspicious improvements at Sky are Froome, Wiggins and Porte. Clearly Cataldo would have nothing on Sky which could help anyone else. Makes me laugh that Sky are still painted as the bad guys when a team like Astana probably have every rider on their squad doped to the gills.

You forgot Rogers. He boasted of having his best numbers at Sky.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

You forgot Rogers. He boasted of having his best numbers at Sky.

Meaningless boasts don't concern me. Rogers was clearly no better at Sky than he was before he joined them or since he has left them. Cataldo has no secrets he can take from Sky to Astana. The fact is that Sky have been a shambles since he joined them.

 

[movingtarget]

Most results on Tinkoff comes from just a few riders, very similar to Astana.
Can't see any difference between them in terms on width.

I agree. You could say that about most teams for example BMC : Gilbert Evans and GVA or Katusha : Rodriguez, Moreno and whoever. And it does not prove in any way the one team is doping more than another. Saxo : Contador, Majka and Rogers. The legacy of Riis and Vino are probably what concerns many people as with BMC and Katusha management.

 

[Futuroscope]

They should start punishing the teams, not only the individual riders.

 

[gustienordic]

Pro cycling is a chemistry experiment where willing young men are guinea pigs for untrained amateur mad scientists.

Astana is "normal" for pro cycling.

Perhaps in the 90s/early 2000s... pretty sure a team like Astana has a doctor/ physiology expert that helps write up the plans. Doping has to be fairly sophisticated these days (at least for the top riders).

 

[the sceptic]

Which teams would those be, and why do you think so?

I would argue tinkoff, sky and movistar are worse.

Contadors one legged vuelta win probably gives him the doper of the year award. Added to that we have Dodger and Majka with not normal performances, and possibly Kreuziger escaping a passport case.

2012 was the most doped up team performance since postal, and 2013 was ridiculous too. But yes, sky does look more normal this year even though the horse steroid affair is still fresh in my mind.

On Movistar we have Valverde with his year long peak and possible (?) CQ points record as another cadidate for doper of the year. Quintana screams doper too even though he is young and colombian. Of course, I havent forgotten Dowsett taking the leading jersey in the TOB as the cleanest performance of the year, but even so Movistar rates amongs the worst for me.

Astana? meh.. they have Nibali who is alien and Aru who is also not normal, but aside from that they dont do much that stand out in the "clean" peloton. The EPO positives doesnt mean much to me in terms of how dirty they are in relation to the rest of the peloton. It probably says more about lack of protection or perhaps they need a new doctor.

 

[sniper]

I would argue tinkoff, sky and movistar are worse.

Contadors one legged vuelta win probably gives him the doper of the year award. Added to that we have Dodger and Majka with not normal performances, and possibly Kreuziger escaping a passport case.

2012 was the most doped up team performance since postal, and 2013 was ridiculous too. But yes, sky does look more normal this year even though the horse steroid affair is still fresh in my mind.

On Movistar we have Valverde with his year long peak and possible (?) CQ points record as another cadidate for doper of the year. Quintana screams doper too even though he is young and colombian. Of course, I havent forgotten Dowsett taking the leading jersey in the TOB as the cleanest performance of the year, but even so Movistar rates amongs the worst for me.

Astana? meh.. they have Nibali who is alien and Aru who is also not normal, but aside from that they dont do much that stand out in the "clean" peloton. The EPO positives doesnt mean much to me in terms of how dirty they are in relation to the rest of the peloton. It probably says more about lack of protection or perhaps they need a new doctor.

excellent post.

on a side, Contador's injury may not have been that serious. If it was only a small fracture he could have been back in training ca. two weeks after the crash, making his vuelta performance look perhaps a tad bit less alien.
link to german article where the nature of his injury is discussed

 

[Benotti69]

Meaningless boasts don't concern me. Rogers was clearly no better at Sky than he was before he joined them or since he has left them. Cataldo has no secrets he can take from Sky to Astana. The fact is that Sky have been a shambles since he joined them.

I hope you take Wiggins and Froome's boasts of cleanliness in a similar manner.

 

[gooner]

Oh gosh, yes, it is so hard, almost as difficult as trying to work out whether Sam & Cat is a spin-off from iCarly or Victorious.

For the record: Trek (Leopard) was a new team (broke away from CSC). USPS ended with Disco and Radioshack was a new team. Astana is ONCE/Liberty Seguros and no other team. BMC is not Phonak (or 7-Eleven/Motorola for that matter). And when it comes to mergers, one team dies (Garmin will not inherit Cannondale's heritage).

Your exchange with Nibali on twitter has made The Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-doubts-over-Italians-Tour-de-France-win.html

 

[Dr. Juice]

I would argue tinkoff, sky and movistar are worse.

Contadors one legged vuelta win probably gives him the doper of the year award. Added to that we have Dodger and Majka with not normal performances, and possibly Kreuziger escaping a passport case.

2012 was the most doped up team performance since postal, and 2013 was ridiculous too. But yes, sky does look more normal this year even though the horse steroid affair is still fresh in my mind.

On Movistar we have Valverde with his year long peak and possible (?) CQ points record as another cadidate for doper of the year. Quintana screams doper too even though he is young and colombian. Of course, I havent forgotten Dowsett taking the leading jersey in the TOB as the cleanest performance of the year, but even so Movistar rates amongs the worst for me.

Astana? meh.. they have Nibali who is alien and Aru who is also not normal, but aside from that they dont do much that stand out in the "clean" peloton. The EPO positives doesnt mean much to me in terms of how dirty they are in relation to the rest of the peloton. It probably says more about lack of protection or perhaps they need a new doctor.

Some good points here. But I'd say Astana is more or less close with those 3. The jump from 2012 Nibali to 2013 Nibali was quite remarkable. Other riders are doing good. They are fine.

And Katusha is right up at the front IMO. Look at Purito at Caisse d' Epargne when he had 29 years. Then 2010 - big jump in level, 7th at the Tour + victory in Mende and on the podium at the Vuelta. Moreno suddenly exploding also at an advanced age. Kristoff - okay he was young before - but his results come from the get go at Katusha.

Big teams with money = advanced and heavy doping

Mediocre WT teams with less money = basic doping program, not quite as effective + a couple of clean riders in each team. Perhaps a little more sophisticated program their 2-3 best riders.

I'm really looking forward to Basso next year. And Kiserlovski.

Look at the implosion of BOTH Schleck brothers after 2011 (fusion of Leopard and Radio Shack at the end of 2012). Maybe Andy has lost a bit of motivation but 2 at the same time - no.
Of course they are still on EPO. Some riders are able to perform almost as good even with a more conservative program. Others feel the effects of slightly reduced frequency and/or dosage immediately and don't go as fast anymore.
Basso at Cannondale vs CSC Basso.
Cannondale Basso on conservative program = very good GT rider, very good climbing, average TTing
CSC Basso = Lance Armstrong climbing level and strong TTing
He was 31 when he came back. He should have come very close to his former levels in 09/10 but he was a bit off.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Good to see people can join the dots for team Astana, can they do that for every team?

 

[Benotti69]

Good to see people can join the dots for team Astana, can they do that for every team?

No it is easy with Astana because Vino doesn't talk about marginal gains nor does he talk about it now being cool to ride clean....

 

[hrotha]

Yeah yeah whatever but very few teams, if any, have as many dots to join as Astana. That is a fact.

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah yeah whatever but very few teams, if any, have as many dots to join as Astana. That is a fact.

Sky had lots of dots then jettisoned them all except Knavens.

Tinkoff full of dots

BMC full of dots

Garmin full of dots

OPQS dots full

Katusha....

Orica dot full

and so on.........

 

[hrotha]

Last I checked, I didn't deny that. But not all teams are equal in the dots department. Try to put a similarly damning thread for any other team out there, and with solid, tangible dots, not merely with staff that doped in the past or with suspicious riders.

 

[The Hitch]

Yeah yeah whatever but very few teams, if any, have as many dots to join as Astana. That is a fact.

The only ones who fail to join them are those desperate to make a certain other 2 (or 3) tdf winners look clean. They are fully aware that a doper winning the race a year after brailsfords alleged saving of cycling miracle would absolutely destroy the entire pro sky narrative, of cycling now being clean, of non doping methods being way stronger than epo programme, of everyone copying sky, of the "younger generation" being immune to doping etc. So they ignore all the evidence against vino and Astana and pretend Nibali has "always been outspoken against doping bla bla bla".

Everyone else, contador fans, Armstrong fans, Sagan fans, no rider fans, even Nibali fans, are capable of connecting the dots. The sky defenders, as always are left as the only ones incapable of performing a simple task.

 

[hrotha]

That's all good and well but I don't see no Sky fans here yet. Quite the contrary, in fact. Personally I'm sick of every debate being framed on those terms.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

That's all good and well but I don't see no Sky fans here yet. Quite the contrary, in fact. Personally I'm sick of every debate being framed on those terms.

Agree...my southern neighbour.

 

[The Hitch]

That's all good and well but I don't see no Sky fans here yet. Quite the contrary, in fact. Personally I'm sick of every debate being framed on those terms.

That's the point. They aren't going to come in here and attack Nibali because they need to cling to the narrative that the entirety of cycling is clean.

It was a response to your comment about joining the dots. Everyone in this thread has joined the dots, so its redundant. The ones who don't join the dots, who refuse to, are the journos and commentators who deliberately keep their ears closed. They don't post here nor read it.

 

[hrotha]

No, not at all. Everybody is joining the dots, but some are saying all the dots are created equal in a transparent attempt to not have to admit that Astana looks way worse than, yes, Sky.

 

[Benotti69]

Last I checked, I didn't deny that. But not all teams are equal in the dots department. Try to put a similarly damning thread for any other team out there, and with solid, tangible dots, not merely with staff that doped in the past or with suspicious riders.

The way the sport is run by UCI, some teams/riders appear to be favoured over others so to ask for a'level dot playing field' ignores the inherent unfairness and non level playing field that is in the sport.

I wonder how many Astana or Katusha riders would have got off a clen pos like Rogers......

 

[sniper]

Last I checked, I didn't deny that. But not all teams are equal in the dots department. Try to put a similarly damning thread for any other team out there, and with solid, tangible dots, not merely with staff that doped in the past or with suspicious riders.

there really isn't much difference in dots between Sky, Garmin or Astana.
the difference is one team is getting a series of positives, the others aren't.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The way the sport is run by UCI, some teams/riders appear to be favoured over others so to ask for a'level dot playing field' ignores the inherent unfairness and non level playing field that is in the sport.

I wonder how many Astana or Katusha riders would have got off a clen pos like Rogers......

Aleksandr Kolobnev?

 

[Benotti69]

Caught banged to rights. I bow to you LS.

His B sample tested positive so one has to wonder about CAS!

 

[Samson777]

No, not at all. Everybody is joining the dots, but some are saying all the dots are created equal in a transparent attempt to not have to admit that Astana looks way worse than, yes, Sky.

Froomes transformation looks "worse" than anything else I have seen, after the Wonderboy era finished.

And Vino is a man of honor.

Haters gonna hate.