Team Astana's shameful legacy

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Nov 14, 2013
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Didn't the uci fine vino a couple of hundred k after his doping misdemeaner and vino told them to go kick rocks and sued the uci at CAS, won and got his money back? He has a nice set of swingers on him, the uci doesn't seem to bother him in the slightest.
 
pigoonse said:
i'm feeling sufficiently cynical by now and no names will surprise me, even my favorite(s). but i sure will be depressed if Aru is included, as Der Effe mentions.:(
But he became a pro cyclist in 2013, while the investigation span is 2009-2011..
 
ralphbert said:
Didn't the uci fine vino a couple of hundred k after his doping misdemeaner and vino told them to go kick rocks and sued the uci at CAS, won and got his money back? He has a nice set of swingers on him, the uci doesn't seem to bother him in the slightest.
Thats correct he told them to kick rocks. They sued him for 1.2 million euros. Never payed and won the case. Same with Rasmussen 700k never payed either.
 
nuvolablu said:
But he became a pro cyclist in 2013, while the investigation span is 2009-2011..
You are right. The only problem is that it is the same administration and you have to assume that they stopped cold turkey doping their riders. Unless Aru is beating dopers in his team. Either option makes it shady. Just to be in the team managed by the name Vinokurov is bad, really bad. Very few names will come on top of Vino when it comes to cheating. I never really liked the move by Nibali to go to Astana. In Astana he became a better rider.
 
Escarabajo said:
You are right. The only problem is that it is the same administration and you have to assume that they stopped cold turkey doping their riders. Unless Aru is beating dopers in his team. Either option makes it shady. Just to be in the team managed by the name Vinokurov is bad, really bad. Very few names will come on top of Vino when it comes to cheating. I never really liked the move by Nibali to go to Astana. In Astana he became a better rider.
that's what my fellow Italian journalists do not understand. if you are the flag bearer of clean cycling, and you say it, you DO NOT sign for Astana-Vino ;)
 
Aug 7, 2010
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pastronef said:
that's what my fellow Italian journalists do not understand. if you are the flag bearer of clean cycling, and you say it, you DO NOT sign for Astana-Vino ;)
Then who DO you sign for? Hint: the answer is not Sky, Garmindale, Europecar, FDJ, Riis, Quickstep, AG2R, Cofidis, Katusha, Lotto, Orange,,,,,,,should I continue?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Fortyninefourteen said:
Then who DO you sign for? Hint: the answer is not Sky, Garmindale, Europecar, FDJ, Riis, Quickstep, AG2R, Cofidis, Katusha, Lotto, Orange,,,,,,,should I continue?
Aaaaand...scene!

 
Escarabajo said:
.. Very few names will come on top of Vino when it comes to cheating.
Maybe the cheating we know about? As the IAAF scandal (FIFA too) there is way more money and wholesale corruption at the federation level.

It's a dangerous thing to pile all of cycling's ills on, this time, Vino. Not too long ago it was mostly Armstrong and Verbruggen/McQuaid. Who is next? The IOC rumor repeated a couple of different places is anti-doping in Kazhakstan is terrible. So, no matter where you look there's corruption opportunities. Let's not forget ASO getting pressure from the French government to accomodate Astana in the name of "trade relations."

I really want to know what set the UCI off this time. Since this is cycling, maybe we'll eventually get some more insight.

Escarabajo said:
I never really liked the move by Nibali to go to Astana. In Astana he became a better rider.
I'm not saying he's clean, but, the grand tour power estimates were substantially down outside the usual dopers. Nibali's numbers were high-er, but not Froome-class transformation. Another interesting topic is how/why an entire peloton slows down, except some favored riders.
 
Sep 20, 2011
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Hugh Januss said:
Interested to hear why you think Vino is a bigger crook than Armstrong, Riis, or Hein and Pat just for a few examples. If Vino is in fact the "biggest crook in the history of cycling" there has got to be a knifes edge of difference, so what is it that you perceive as putting Vino over the top as compared to all the other crooks in the history of cycling? Did he dope to win the TDF as many times as Indurain or Armstrong? Did he even dope to win the TDF as many times as Landis? Or did he dope to win the TDF exactly as many times as Tyler and his twin put together?:rolleyes:
Vino, in my opinion, is a bigger crook because he cheated, he bribed etc etc. The guy has no shame in getting what he wants, leads a team that's just disgusting in every aspect and even named a team after himself - which means he actually believes he is something when he is not. In Armstrong's case there's lot and lots of other things you have to keep in mind. He survived cancer and got all this deals making him a superstar etc. It's bad - and what he did to other riders is even worse - but I could see many others doing what he did, if they had the chance. It's character combined with circumstances. Vino is just a very tasteless human being who is too dumb to cheat his way to a Tour de France win. At least Indurain and Armstrong have brain cells.

pigoonse said:
i'm feeling sufficiently cynical by now and no names will surprise me, even my favorite(s). but i sure will be depressed if Aru is included, as Der Effe mentions.:(
Mentioning Nibali and Aru wasn't that smart. My point was more or less that in cycling there's always this 'oh it's nothing' attitude, then the big guns get caught and everybody acts all surprised. I did - and do - not want to claim Nibali and Aru are dopers and I certainly hope they're clean as a whistle. I just can't stand idiots like Vino ruining the sport I love anymore.
 
Der Effe said:
Vino, in my opinion, is a bigger crook because he cheated, he bribed etc etc. The guy has no shame in getting what he wants, leads a team that's just disgusting in every aspect and even named a team after himself - which means he actually believes he is something when he is not.
Except a rider that more or less keeps his/her head down and "just races" even if they have good results typically is not making much money at all. Relentless self promotion is almost a requirement.

Make no mistake, Vino is brilliant. The problem is the sports administration side of the sport is so weak and corrupted Vino simply takes advantage of all of it.
 
Der Effe said:
Vino, in my opinion, is a bigger crook because he cheated, he bribed etc etc. The guy has no shame in getting what he wants, leads a team that's just disgusting in every aspect and even named a team after himself - which means he actually believes he is something when he is not. In Armstrong's case there's lot and lots of other things you have to keep in mind. He survived cancer and got all this deals making him a superstar etc. It's bad - and what he did to other riders is even worse - but I could see many others doing what he did, if they had the chance. It's character combined with circumstances. Vino is just a very tasteless human being who is too dumb to cheat his way to a Tour de France win. At least Indurain and Armstrong have brain cells.
Armstrong: Doped his way to 7 TDF victories
Paid off other riders to win races (see Thrift Drug Classic)
Paid off the UCI to cover up positive tests
Protected and tipped off to OOC tests by Nat. Fed.
Blacklisted journalists
Threatened anyone who spoke out against "the myth" with law suits
Started a "Charity" which personally enriched himself by millions as a shield to his doping
Lied about doping to his teams major sponsor


Vino: Doped his way to Olympic RR a number of classics and to race like an out of control berserker in TDF
Paid of other riders to win races
Protected by his Nat Fed
Sued the UCI
Didn't need to lie to his team's major sponsor about anything. ;-)


I would say Lance is the clear winner here.
 
Who is the bigger a-hole is besides the point at this juncture. Armstrong is out, while Vino is decidedly still in. As far as I can tell, the fact that he is still in simply affirms what this market driven world signifies as far as corruption and conflict of interests having made this sport, and not only this sport, the farce it has become.

That is not being able to milk the cash cow that Armstrong represented a decade ago, means he has justifiably become the fallen Lucifer of cycling. Vino, to the contrary, brings with him the financial strenght of the gas rich Kazakhstan state. He is thus untouchable until those economic resources, in a sponsorship hurting sport, are no longer desirable, irregardless of the shameful image it produces. This even permits this arrogant mobster to insolently ridicule the European press and Italy with it!
 
Jun 19, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Who is the bigger a-hole is besides the point at this juncture. Armstrong is out, while Vino is decidedly still in. As far as I can tell, the fact that he is still in simply affirms what this market driven world signifies as far as corruption and conflict of interests having made this sport, and not only this sport, the farce it has become.

That is not being able to milk the cash cow that Armstrong represented a decade ago, means he has justifiably become the fallen Lucifer of cycling. Vino, to the contrary, brings with him the financial strenght of the gas rich Kazakhstan state. He is thus untouchable until those economic resources, in a sponsorship hurting sport, are no longer desirable, irregardless of the shameful image it produces. This even permits this arrogant mobster to insolently ridicule the European press and Italy with it!
Vino is a god in his world. The fact that he blames his current problems on the European press demonstrates the disconnect between his world and the rest. I'm sure his investment opportunities in his own country are at least relative to Armstrong's wealth and he doesn't have to deal with feeble-willed marketing execs....they just disappear the local opposition. Problem solved.
He has the Dallas Cowboys of Eastern Europe going for him.
 
Oldman said:
Vino is a god in his world. The fact that he blames his current problems on the European press demonstrates the disconnect between his world and the rest. I'm sure his investment opportunities in his own country are at least relative to Armstrong's wealth and he doesn't have to deal with feeble-willed marketing execs....they just disappear the local opposition. Problem solved.
He has the Dallas Cowboys of Eastern Europe going for him.
Indeed Anglo ethics, I say this with particular emphasis in regards to the image the traditional Euro based sport wants to outwardly project currently with Cookson at the helm and Sky as a poster team, is of absolutely no concern to the essentially Soviet-Byzantine state of Kazakhstan (hence the disconnect to which you refer). While Armstrong was around, it should also not be forgotten, the UCI tried to manipulate the public with his "all-American" wholesomeness.

Vino, with his native backing and before the home fanbase, doesn't even have to deal with the thousands of concerns that afflict corporate sponsorship in the West, however hypocritically on the West's part. Just attack the money desperate sport in its homestead with the temerity and shamelessness that comes with full knowledge that it can only seek appeasement before you. It's patently grotesque, though this is what happens when the sport doesn't have a moral leg left to stand on.
 
Apr 16, 2014
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DirtyWorks said:
Maybe the cheating we know about? As the IAAF scandal (FIFA too) there is way more money and wholesale corruption at the federation level.

It's a dangerous thing to pile all of cycling's ills on, this time, Vino. Not too long ago it was mostly Armstrong and Verbruggen/McQuaid. Who is next? The IOC rumor repeated a couple of different places is anti-doping in Kazhakstan is terrible. So, no matter where you look there's corruption opportunities. Let's not forget ASO getting pressure from the French government to accomodate Astana in the name of "trade relations."

I really want to know what set the UCI off this time. Since this is cycling, maybe we'll eventually get some more insight.



I'm not saying he's clean, but, the grand tour power estimates were substantially down outside the usual dopers. Nibali's numbers were high-er, but not Froome-class transformation. Another interesting topic is how/why an entire peloton slows down, except some favored riders.
lots to think about in this post, DirtyWorks. especially liked the questions bolded. to the first, what set them off? has to be something more than the lower level Kazakh doping positives. they, whoever they are, needed to wound Vino and weaken his team/threaten to eliminate Astana, at least from riding much of 2015. 'they' feared something else more sinister that Vino may do? (' they' also can time media releases and positive problems at will - in a nauseating way - as was the Kreuziger thing last june ... what was that? a warning shot to Tinkoff-Saxo pre TdF?)

to your second question: how god-like of those who can pull the puppet strings...very similar to 'appointing' a US presidential candidate, imo; anyway.. again, who/ what entity are they? uci presidents are picked for their puppet-like qualities, it appears, plus their speech/promise making talent - but those puppets still have to maintain corruptabilty enough to be easily manipulated into to going along with the plan, a game or plan which includes, power enough to favor, protect, and promote certain riders as clean-er.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Isn't the Ferrari connection the most likely culprit? What if the UCI got told by a leak that Ferrari was working with Astana on a team-wide doping program? Then the UCI quickly starts properly analyzing some Astana samples to stay ahead of the story.

No one could blame UCI for protecting Astana after the Ferrari story broke, right? After all, they just found 5 positives in a short span, so clearly they were target testing Astana already.
 
Oldman said:
Vino is a god in his world. The fact that he blames his current problems on the European press demonstrates the disconnect between his world and the rest. I'm sure his investment opportunities in his own country are at least relative to Armstrong's wealth and he doesn't have to deal with feeble-willed marketing execs....they just disappear the local opposition. Problem solved.
He has the Dallas Cowboys of Eastern Europe going for him.
Only as long as he stays friends with the dictator, er, president.

And that's really about the extent of his actual "brilliance".
 
LOL! You gotta love Nibali's attempt to take any sort of heat or suspicion off himself and put it onto others:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nibali-leads-anti-sky-fightback-234020735--spt.html

Vincenzo Nibali was the main beneficiary as he emerged from the chaos of crashes during the Grand Boucle -- that saw three former winners in Froome, Alberto Contador and Andy Schleck hit the deck and leave the race during the first 10 days -- to streak away to victory.
Which is what I said when I called his "extraordinary win" a fluke win.(I loved that part especially)
 
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