Team Ineos Discussion thread

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

I hoped it would be announced before WC that Sosa joined Team Sky but still no information.
Ivan & Egan together at Sky, it sounds great!

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I hope is not true they will sign Sosa. What a pity!

I like some things from SKY, I have defended Froome from some nonsense acusations, but I cant stand a team with so big budget,
Cycing must take some control about that.

SKY budget should be divided on 2 or 3 rival teams, and we will enjoy cycling.

We rarely agree but this time we do. Hopefully these are just rumors and not based in fact. Hoarding of talent isn't good for the sport. With the decided advantage they have budget wise, the temptation is strong for a promising rider to go for the dollars and ride occasionally (or more than that) as a domestique instead of riding for themselves. One would have to question how this arrangement might stunt the development of young talented rider. Maybe like some riders, he could be wasting his best years in service of another, denying the fans of seeing what could have been.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I do wonder whether some cycling fans watch other sports - Sky are merely doing what a well organised team would do; sign a young rider up to a multi year contract - develop him, and then reap the rewards.

I recall Brailsford stating that he didn't like developing young riders because they would only leave eventually and his team would be like a farm team for other teams. A five year contract is quite rare in cycling because most of the teams don't have the budgets to do it for both their current top riders and the young prospects. I just hope that Bernal has good representation because I forsee a renegotiation of this contract in the future. I also see a major budget increase in Sky's future.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Re: Re:

I hope is not true they will sign Sosa. What a pity!

I like some things from SKY, I have defended Froome from some nonsense acusations, but I cant stand a team with so big budget,
Cycing must take some control about that.

SKY budget should be divided on 2 or 3 rival teams, and we will enjoy cycling.

We rarely agree but this time we do. Hopefully these are just rumors and not based in fact. Hoarding of talent isn't good for the sport. With the decided advantage they have budget wise, the temptation is strong for a promising rider to go for the dollars and ride occasionally (or more than that) as a domestique instead of riding for themselves. One would have to question how this arrangement might stunt the development of young talented rider. Maybe like some riders, he could be wasting his best years in service of another, denying the fans of seeing what could have been.

Only rumours? I don't think so. Now Egan & Ivan have the same agent, it was heard that Ivan signed the contract with Trek and suddenly he didn't.

The same kind of doubts were in case of Bernal contract: he will not develop, will be only domestique. It turned out that was BS.
I think Egan could be asked (by Ivan), if he regrets he joined Sky. And his new 5years contract is the best answer.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I hoped it would be announced before WC that Sosa joined Team Sky but still no information.
Ivan & Egan together at Sky, it sounds great!

Only if one likes talent being hoarded by one team and competition being stifled. For the sport's fan base in general and for the sake of entertainment this is only good for Sky fans.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I hope is not true they will sign Sosa. What a pity!

I like some things from SKY, I have defended Froome from some nonsense acusations, but I cant stand a team with so big budget,
Cycing must take some control about that.

SKY budget should be divided on 2 or 3 rival teams, and we will enjoy cycling.

We rarely agree but this time we do. Hopefully these are just rumors and not based in fact. Hoarding of talent isn't good for the sport. With the decided advantage they have budget wise, the temptation is strong for a promising rider to go for the dollars and ride occasionally (or more than that) as a domestique instead of riding for themselves. One would have to question how this arrangement might stunt the development of young talented rider. Maybe like some riders, he could be wasting his best years in service of another, denying the fans of seeing what could have been.

Only rumours? I don't think so. Now Egan & Ivan have the same agent, it was heard that Ivan signed the contract with Trek and suddenly he didn't.

The same kind of doubts were in case of Bernal contract: he will not develop, will be only domestique. It turned out that was BS.
I think Egan could be asked (by Ivan), if he regret he joined Sky. And his new 5years contract is the best answer.

The issue isn't them only being domestiques. The issue is that the sport would be better served with the talent being spread a bit more evenly. The fans are denied the opportunity to see actual competition because one team has riders that are domestiques that could be leading other teams and making the races entertaining, rather than a procession to a predictable outcome.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Of course you will not agree but Vuelta (with ridiculous weak Sky) was the most boring GT.
Giro results weren't so obvious till 19th stage. And Bernal as a domestique at Tour was absolutely entertaining, playing with other GC leaders.
Should he be a leader in other team? Maybe, but there were plenty of comments that he shouldn't be even a dom, because it is too early for him.

 

[oldcrank]

Re: Team Sky Discussion thread

I, for one, am glad there is a team that believes top riders
deserve a pay packet on par with athletes in other sports.
I certainly don't begrudge riders receiving a decent wage.
That some fans are ok with the 'pay to play' model is sad.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Of course you will not agree but Vuelta (with ridiculous weak Sky) was the most boring GT.
Giro results weren't so obvious till 19th stage. And Bernal as a domestique at Tour was absolutely entertaining, playing with other GC leaders.
Should he be a leader in other team? Maybe, but there were plenty of comments that he shouldn't be even a dom, because it is too early for him.

...and the Tour and Giro were the most fantastical tour of the year right? No surprise that for someone that is so Sky focused would find the Vuelta less than entertaining. Maybe broaden one's horizons and enjoy the sport itself and not just when "our team" is doing well. The comments were more to him riding the Tour at all, thinking if anything, having him ride the Giro or the Vuelta as a racer X (just to see how he would do) would be more appealing than him riding in support of someone else in the Tour. It isn't the norm from my experience of watching the cycling. The Vuelta and Giro are seen as being events better for a young gc prospects first grand tour. I believe that is what the comments that you mentioned were referring to.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Team Sky Discussion thread

I, for one, am glad there is a team that believes top riders
deserve a pay packet on par with athletes in other sports.
I certainly don't begrudge riders receiving a decent wage.
That some fans are ok with the 'pay to play' model is sad.

This argument only holds water if budgets across teams are reasonably equal.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Team Sky Discussion thread

I, for one, am glad there is a team that believes top riders
deserve a pay packet on par with athletes in other sports.
I certainly don't begrudge riders receiving a decent wage.

As I don’t think that you are actually as stupid as the above suggests, I can only conclude that you are being disingenuous.

Beliefs about what athletes deserve have nothing to do with it. Teams are commercial enterprises. They pay based on commercial considerations not based on what anyone deserves. Sky are among the more ruthless teams when it comes to personnel decisions, but all operate with more or less the same objectives in mind. Sky have the resources to make talent hoarding rational, so they are doing so.

If they do end up with both Sosa and Pidcock on their books, they will have captured probably a substantial absolute majority of the most hyped young talents in the sport. Some will prosper there, but even those who don’t will have been denied to other teams. There’s nothing to like about this. It’s the long term destruction of the sport, or at least its stage racing element, as a competitive spectacle right in front of our eyes. Anyone who welcomes it out of team partisanship might as well go and support Olympiacos in the Greek Superleague or Celtic in the Scottish Premiership and enjoy a wider variety of endless, empty, money bought victories.

Any situation where success turns into a big money spinner which can be turned into endless success and becomes a self perpetuating dominance is disastrous to sport. In cycling, long periods of dominance of GTs have always been bad for the sport but have always previously had a life cycle more or less limited to the peak years of a single leader’s career. Sky’s project at the moment is to break that limit. If they succeed it will be completely poisonous to the sport as a competitive spectacle.

 

[Red Rick]

They can hardly get worse at this point.

But seriously, any GT talent signing with them when they already have Bernal and other top talents there has to be an idiot.

 

[janraaskalt]

Re:

But seriously, any GT talent signing with them when they already have Bernal and other top talents there has to be an idiot.

Only an idiot if he expects to be a GT leader. Maybe he only want to get the best development he thinks there is and fly out to another team when he thinks he's good enough to have a chance to win.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Re: Re:

Of course you will not agree but Vuelta (with ridiculous weak Sky) was the most boring GT.
Giro results weren't so obvious till 19th stage. And Bernal as a domestique at Tour was absolutely entertaining, playing with other GC leaders.
Should he be a leader in other team? Maybe, but there were plenty of comments that he shouldn't be even a dom, because it is too early for him.

...and the Tour and Giro were the most fantastical tour of the year right? No surprise that for someone that is so Sky focused would find the Vuelta less than entertaining. Maybe broaden one's horizons and enjoy the sport itself and not just when "our team" is doing well. The comments were more to him riding the Tour at all, thinking if anything, having him ride the Giro or the Vuelta as a racer X (just to see how he would do) would be more appealing than him riding in support of someone else in the Tour. It isn't the norm from my experience of watching the cycling. The Vuelta and Giro are seen as being events better for a young gc prospects first grand tour. I believe that is what the comments that you mentioned were referring to.

Yes, "the most boring" was not proper statement. My point was Vuelta was the least entertaining, but of course there were some great moments, fights and winners: Pinot, Mas, King, of course SY, stages 19 % 20.

More interesting is how to evaluate in measurable way which GT was more entertaining? Tour or Vuelta (I think there is no need to compare Giro, was the greatest).TBH, I'm not sure if it possible.
For now I had one idea.

I've just summarised the total number of pages with posts of both GT. The results are:
- 21 stages of TdF with total ammount of 468 pages with posts;
- 21 stages of Vue with total ammount of 238 pages with posts.

Of course, it's only approximation of the measurable answer but the 97 % difference in favour of TdF is just striking.

 

[rick james]

Re:

I hoped it would be announced before WC that Sosa joined Team Sky but still no information.
Ivan & Egan together at Sky, it sounds great!

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Of course you will not agree but Vuelta (with ridiculous weak Sky) was the most boring GT.
Giro results weren't so obvious till 19th stage. And Bernal as a domestique at Tour was absolutely entertaining, playing with other GC leaders.
Should he be a leader in other team? Maybe, but there were plenty of comments that he shouldn't be even a dom, because it is too early for him.

...and the Tour and Giro were the most fantastical tour of the year right? No surprise that for someone that is so Sky focused would find the Vuelta less than entertaining. Maybe broaden one's horizons and enjoy the sport itself and not just when "our team" is doing well. The comments were more to him riding the Tour at all, thinking if anything, having him ride the Giro or the Vuelta as a racer X (just to see how he would do) would be more appealing than him riding in support of someone else in the Tour. It isn't the norm from my experience of watching the cycling. The Vuelta and Giro are seen as being events better for a young gc prospects first grand tour. I believe that is what the comments that you mentioned were referring to.

Yes, "the most boring" was not proper statement. My point was Vuelta was the least entertaining, but of course there were some great moments, fights and winners: Pinot, Mas, King, of course SY, stages 19 % 20.

More interesting is how to evaluate in measurable way which GT was more entertaining? Tour or Vuelta (I think there is no need to compare Giro, was the greatest).TBH, I'm not sure if it possible.
For now I had one idea.

I've just summarised the total number of pages with posts of both GT. The results are:
- 21 stages of TdF with total ammount of 468 pages with posts;
- 21 stages of Vue with total ammount of 238 pages with posts.

Of course, it's only approximation of the measurable answer but the 97 % difference in favour of TdF is just striking.

Could it be that the reason for the difference is that the Tour is by far the highest profile event in the sport?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Team Sky Discussion thread

I, for one, am glad there is a team that believes top riders
deserve a pay packet on par with athletes in other sports.
I certainly don't begrudge riders receiving a decent wage.
That some fans are ok with the 'pay to play' model is sad.

Who here has said anything even comparable to that?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Team Sky Discussion thread

I, for one, am glad there is a team that believes top riders
deserve a pay packet on par with athletes in other sports.
I certainly don't begrudge riders receiving a decent wage.

As I don’t think that you are actually as stupid as the above suggests, I can only conclude that you are being disingenuous.

Beliefs about what athletes deserve have nothing to do with it. Teams are commercial enterprises. They pay based on commercial considerations not based on what anyone deserves. Sky are among the more ruthless teams when it comes to personnel decisions, but all operate with more or less the same objectives in mind. Sky have the resources to make talent hoarding rational, so they are doing so.

If they do end up with both Sosa and Pidcock on their books, they will have captured probably a substantial absolute majority of the most hyped young talents in the sport. Some will prosper there, but even those who don’t will have been denied to other teams. There’s nothing to like about this. It’s the long term destruction of the sport, or at least its stage racing element, as a competitive spectacle right in front of our eyes. Anyone who welcomes it out of team partisanship might as well go and support Olympiacos in the Greek Superleague or Celtic in the Scottish Premiership and enjoy a wider variety of endless, empty, money bought victories.

Any situation where success turns into a big money spinner which can be turned into endless success and becomes a self perpetuating dominance is disastrous to sport. In cycling, long periods of dominance of GTs have always been bad for the sport but have always previously had a life cycle more or less limited to the peak years of a single leader’s career. Sky’s project at the moment is to break that limit. If they succeed it will be completely poisonous to the sport as a competitive spectacle.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

They can hardly get worse at this point.

But seriously, any GT talent signing with them when they already have Bernal and other top talents there has to be an idiot.

Or simply cashing in while they can with hopes of later actually pursuing the freedom to achieve their goals elsewhere. I see it as similar to someone taking less than their dream job or profession because the money is much better although the work is less than fulfilling. The problem is that they may get locked into a state of complacency, living well but not ever fulfilling their potential. Who knows what could have been? In terms for cycling, who knows how the landscape of the sport could have changed?

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Re: Re:

Of course you will not agree but Vuelta (with ridiculous weak Sky) was the most boring GT.
Giro results weren't so obvious till 19th stage. And Bernal as a domestique at Tour was absolutely entertaining, playing with other GC leaders.
Should he be a leader in other team? Maybe, but there were plenty of comments that he shouldn't be even a dom, because it is too early for him.

...and the Tour and Giro were the most fantastical tour of the year right? No surprise that for someone that is so Sky focused would find the Vuelta less than entertaining. Maybe broaden one's horizons and enjoy the sport itself and not just when "our team" is doing well. The comments were more to him riding the Tour at all, thinking if anything, having him ride the Giro or the Vuelta as a racer X (just to see how he would do) would be more appealing than him riding in support of someone else in the Tour. It isn't the norm from my experience of watching the cycling. The Vuelta and Giro are seen as being events better for a young gc prospects first grand tour. I believe that is what the comments that you mentioned were referring to.

Yes, "the most boring" was not proper statement. My point was Vuelta was the least entertaining, but of course there were some great moments, fights and winners: Pinot, Mas, King, of course SY, stages 19 % 20.

More interesting is how to evaluate in measurable way which GT was more entertaining? Tour or Vuelta (I think there is no need to compare Giro, was the greatest).TBH, I'm not sure if it possible.
For now I had one idea.

I've just summarised the total number of pages with posts of both GT. The results are:
- 21 stages of TdF with total ammount of 468 pages with posts;
- 21 stages of Vue with total ammount of 238 pages with posts.

Of course, it's only approximation of the measurable answer but the 97 % difference in favour of TdF is just striking.

Could it be that the reason for the difference is that the Tour is by far the highest profile event in the sport?

I have a kind of deal for you.
I could admit that it's sth inappropriate that Sky has the budget much more higher than other teams.
(first time I've admitted here sth like this).
But please, be honest and admit, TdF was much more entertaining than Vuelta...

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Team Sky Discussion thread

But please, be honest and admit, TdF was much more entertaining than Vuelta...

I think you need to go back and watch the first week of TdF again ... zzzzzz ....

 

[Red Rick]

Going by thread pages?

If I could do such a thing I'd report you for crimes against data analysis

 

[Jagartrott]

The TdF clearly also has so many pages because of people voicing their disappointment over the lack of spectacle, and Rick James trolling people. Mr James had no reason to be in the Vuelta thread, for quite obvious reasons. I conclude that the TdF thread was the worst of the GTs, based on the number of pages.

 

[rick james]

Who was trolling?

 

[rick james]

And I wasn’t in the Vuelta as much because life got rather busy, dealing with a 18 week old baby boy takes its toll in other things in life