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Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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it would be interesting to hear what others are saying in the peloton about this Sky revelation. After all, our sport is supposed to be cleaner, supposed to be blah.. blah.. blah.. I wonder if we are in the new age of "Omerta" for 2014. This has got to be damaging for Sky and I wonder if they will be back peddling like RadioShack were , before every race now as the season continues ?? Only time will tell
 
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thehook said:
Froome: Bad back out riding in the snow.
Porte: A good TT guy out of TA. When he could do a TT. Even just for training. After he backs out off Paris-Nice. Screws ASO and now drops out of TA?
Wiggins: Cannot get out of his own way.
Uran: Back to earth. Not so great on the climbs. When he was a dom. or at Giro.
JTL: Still out. No answers.
Henao: Sidelined. A lot of questions still need to be answered?

SKY: A team that preaches science in sport. AKA "we do it better then everyone else" "we train for weeks at altitude" "marginal gains". Needs to do more altitude testing to figure out whats going on? They basically have a Team HQ on Tenefrie!

Porte: "We do 45-60 min at max threshold at altitude" "Nobody sees that,and how hard we train"

If it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck?

Yup. All this. Sky looks like they are disorganized, which is fantastically odd for such a professional team. Rosters and back-up plans for spring races should have been set in stone some time around Christmas. Riders deciding to last-minute shuffle their schedule should bring down fiery hell from the DS.

A guy like Froome, if he has a bad back, should be on a very disciplined and regimented recovery program. Management should have been very involved with rider and doctor on that one.

Wiggins and Uran should have Sky management in constant meetings to discuss what's going on and how to deal with them.

My guess is that the entire team is in disarray and that there's a reason for it. Considering that it's not likely a money issue and there's been no change in roster or management, I'm guessing it's an external cause. Best guess on that one is they've been alerted to a new drug test and are scrambling to figure out how to manage it.

The last few years have seen a number of riders get suddenly fast, powerful, while simultaneously dropping a ton of weight. There's a new drug out there and I'll bet someone in authority has finally figured out what it is and how to look for it.

John Swanson
 
Oct 6, 2009
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It's hard to know what's the truth, other than the Sky press release seems to contradict both itself and typical anti-doping protocol. UCI's statement seems a little "off" too.

My guess, reading between the lines, is that Henao got flagged for an ABP violation, and is in the "explain your odd values" phase of things. Where he could, IIRC, technically still be riding, because he's not actually positive yet (hasn't provided his explanation to be approved or disproved). Because he's in limbo-land, Sky have voluntarily pulled him from racing pending outcome of ABP ruling. And the research project in Colombia is probably meant to be part of his explanation to the committee about why his values were off when he was tested during the off-season.

I suspect Sky would never have said anything publicly, only that he was training at home in Colombia and prepping for goals later in the season. Except that his agent (for whatever reason) blabbed to Gazzetta, and now Sky have to issue some sort of explanation as damage control.

I believe they've chosen odd wording in the press release to muddy the waters, in the hopes that fans will think Henao's test was some sort of Sky internal test, and that they are just being excessively careful/clean/transparent. When really it's an ABP "explain yourself" thing.

And note - there are apparently lots of riders who get to the ABP "explain yourself" phase without anything becoming public, cases where the explanation is accepted, and the "case" goes away, is not considered a positive, etc.

It's one of the reasons Froome's bilharzia story could be such useful cover, or GT's lack of a spleen, or Dowsett's hemophilia. Or any number of other guys with issues - these things could be real reasons for blood value anomalies. Or they could be good cover for doping.
 

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ScienceIsCool said:
Yup. All this. Sky looks like they are disorganized, which is fantastically odd for such a professional team. Rosters and back-up plans for spring races should have been set in stone some time around Christmas. Riders deciding to last-minute shuffle their schedule should bring down fiery hell from the DS.

A guy like Froome, if he has a bad back, should be on a very disciplined and regimented recovery program. Management should have been very involved with rider and doctor on that one.

Wiggins and Uran should have Sky management in constant meetings to discuss what's going on and how to deal with them.

My guess is that the entire team is in disarray and that there's a reason for it. Considering that it's not likely a money issue and there's been no change in roster or management, I'm guessing it's an external cause. Best guess on that one is they've been alerted to a new drug test and are scrambling to figure out how to manage it.

The last few years have seen a number of riders get suddenly fast, powerful, while simultaneously dropping a ton of weight. There's a new drug out there and I'll bet someone in authority has finally figured out what it is and how to look for it.

John Swanson

I don't think Sky have much leverage over Uran any more.
 
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Benotti69 said:
Sky seemed to have all their PR points well prepared for Henao's anomaly. Wonder have they had time to test Froome's Vo2Max yet :rolleyes:

See, I'm not sure Sky's PR points really are all that good. It looks like the Gazzetta leak may have caught them by surprise and sent them scrambling. Also, I'm not sure why Henao's agent would tell such a thing to Gazzetta, since it only throws mud onto his own client, possibly hurting his chances for future contracts if all this causes SH to be viewed as questionable.

I suppose it puts pressure on Sky, and maybe the agent had some sort of reasons for wanting to toss them under the bus? Or the agent was naive and thought this talk was off the record (seems unlikely)?

Who is Henao's agent anyway, and who else does he represent?
 
ScienceIsCool said:
Yup. All this. Sky looks like they are disorganized, which is fantastically odd for such a professional team. Rosters and back-up plans for spring races should have been set in stone some time around Christmas. Riders deciding to last-minute shuffle their schedule should bring down fiery hell from the DS.

A guy like Froome, if he has a bad back, should be on a very disciplined and regimented recovery program. Management should have been very involved with rider and doctor on that one.

Wiggins and Uran should have Sky management in constant meetings to discuss what's going on and how to deal with them.

My guess is that the entire team is in disarray and that there's a reason for it. Considering that it's not likely a money issue and there's been no change in roster or management, I'm guessing it's an external cause. Best guess on that one is they've been alerted to a new drug test and are scrambling to figure out how to manage it.

The last few years have seen a number of riders get suddenly fast, powerful, while simultaneously dropping a ton of weight. There's a new drug out there and I'll bet someone in authority has finally figured out what it is and how to look for it.

John Swanson

the 1st bold phrase: A rider cannot anticipate an "injury" -IF that's the case on Froome..... but I do agree on the team putting him on "recovery" as priority
the 2nd bold phrase: Uran had already decided to leave SKY prior to Il Giro, since he was looking for more freedom & opportunities. Wiggins is simply a case of not being able to replicate his ridiculous 2012 form, and falling apart in the process while Froome was uprising...

bottom line- the "proper people" were let go because of the "zero tolerace" policy BS & now Brailsford is widely exposed with all these new incidents-one after another- which only indicates he's losing the plot...
 
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Baseline values

Maybe I am just being thick but how do you ascertain what are normal values in a rider who is doping all the time.

Surely the values are constantly all over the place so trying to work out normal values is a futile exercise.
 
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ScienceIsCool said:
Best guess on that one is they've been alerted to a new drug test and are scrambling to figure out how to manage it.

The last few years have seen a number of riders get suddenly fast, powerful, while simultaneously dropping a ton of weight. There's a new drug out there and I'll bet someone in authority has finally figured out what it is and how to look for it.

John Swanson

Time to take off the tin foil hat.

Sky are well financed but do you have any idea how much work would need to go into developing a new PED?...scientists, labs, testing etc etc....all without any information coming out?....that's amazing!....or more likely a figment of your imagination.

It looks like Henao has been doping and Sky and/or the UCI have picked up on it.

It looks like some riders got injured and/or unwell in the last few weeks.

What is so outlandish about the above statements?...the conspiracy theories on Sky threads are hilarious.

Somebody on this forum said on the JTL thread that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one....his suggestion was that JTL doped to land the big contract with Sky and then had to stop once subject to their internal testing policy....it makes sense....but we then had pages and pages of how Brailsford is doping any rider who pulls on a GB jersey because Sky sponsor the national set-up regardless of what team that rider actually rides for, how the outgoing UCI president hates Sky and lined up JTL for a fall, how the new UCI president is Sky's inside man and keeps them safe, how Walsh is complicit in all of this etc etc....

Carry on though, this is excellent entertainment.
 
ScienceIsCool said:
Yup. All this. Sky looks like they are disorganized, which is fantastically odd for such a professional team. Rosters and back-up plans for spring races should have been set in stone some time around Christmas. Riders deciding to last-minute shuffle their schedule should bring down fiery hell from the DS.

A guy like Froome, if he has a bad back, should be on a very disciplined and regimented recovery program. Management should have been very involved with rider and doctor on that one.

Wiggins and Uran should have Sky management in constant meetings to discuss what's going on and how to deal with them.

My guess is that the entire team is in disarray and that there's a reason for it. Considering that it's not likely a money issue and there's been no change in roster or management, I'm guessing it's an external cause. Best guess on that one is they've been alerted to a new drug test and are scrambling to figure out how to manage it.

The last few years have seen a number of riders get suddenly fast, powerful, while simultaneously dropping a ton of weight. There's a new drug out there and I'll bet someone in authority has finally figured out what it is and how to look for it.

John Swanson
What does Uran has to do with this anyway???

He left the team and he indeed performed well in the Giro even if he was under pressure.
 
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deviant said:
Sky are well financed but do you have any idea how much work would need to go into developing a new PED?...scientists, labs, testing etc etc....all without any information coming out?....that's amazing!....or more likely a figment of your imagination.

Ever heard of "The Clear"? Well worth reading up on. It's nowhere near as expensive as you think to create a new, undetectable drug. And you don't even need a fancy, world class lab or lots of PhDs, either.
 
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I like the tinfoil hat. I'm keeping it. Maybe shift it a bit to the left for comfort...

Anyways, you're reading it all wrong. It looks like there's a new drug out there and quite a few riders are using it; not just Sky. And there's no way I believe that any team had a hand in creating it.

From the outside, Sky looks like it's in disarray. Going through a mental checklist of reasons (mainly financial or internal politics) past teams have exhibited this kind of behavior, I'm guessing it's something fairly unique.

The guess I'm pulling out of my tinfoil hat is that they're scrambling to manage a situation. One scenario is that they've been alerted to a new test. Maybe management is freaking out because they have no idea who is dirty and who is clean on their team? Maybe the riders are freaking out because they know who is dirty?

John Swanson
 
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bewildered said:
The story appears to be that the UCI don't have any issue with Henao or his tests yet they are 'supportive of [Sky's] programme and the approach to it and to suspend the rider'

Why is the UCI supportive of Henao being suspended? Surely they should have no comment either way if they don't have an issue with the test and it is purely an internal Sky matter only?

can't you read? they are supportive of sky doing intertnal testing. :rolleyes:
 

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ScienceIsCool said:
I like the tinfoil hat. I'm keeping it. Maybe shift it a bit to the left for comfort...

Anyways, you're reading it all wrong. It looks like there's a new drug out there and quite a few riders are using it; not just Sky. And there's no way I believe that any team had a hand in creating it.

From the outside, Sky looks like it's in disarray. Going through a mental checklist of reasons (mainly financial or internal politics) past teams have exhibited this kind of behavior, I'm guessing it's something fairly unique.

The guess I'm pulling out of my tinfoil hat is that they're scrambling to manage a situation. One scenario is that they've been alerted to a new test. Maybe management is freaking out because they have no idea who is dirty and who is clean on their team? Maybe the riders are freaking out because they know who is dirty?

John Swanson

Certainly plausible, yes. Sky seem to 'scramble' a lot when doping raises it's head. I fear this one's just going to take some patience, as usual. It's not terminal, yet. but it sure doesn't look good.
 
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Escarabajo said:
I never liked Henao's relation with Botero.

I hope is nothing related with doping but I won't be surprised if it is.:(

well how about acevedo? he also rode with botero's team and is in garmin. and vaughters has been lyrical of him.
 
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Henao's agent gets a cut of his salary, not sure of his bonuses. If his client is not working, earning points, etc, his value goes down. If the UCI have no issue with the blood readings (clearly, something should have been done by now if they did), then it makes no sense to keep him out of competition, diminishing his ongoing value, and thus diminishing agent's fees.

So going to Gazetta to try and force Sky's hand to let Henao back onto the roster is the goal, surely?

Agent --> Gazetta "My boy Henao is off the roster"
Gazetta --> Sky "Is Henao off the roster?"
Sky have 2 choices:
1. Nope, he's gonna race XYZ. (Agent's intent)
2. Yes, and here's why. (Ohhhh sh!t)

Looks like it backfired on the agent and Henao, and if 2008 Rob Hayles BP anomaly is anything to go by, Henao is out, despite the team learning nothing untoward is going on, where over a period of X weeks his blood values were perfectly fine.
 
thehog said:
This appears to be a case of "dot joining". Both on the rider in question and the remainder of the Sky riders.

Indeed. What amazes me is How SKY is preparing this "research" on Henao's "sudden" blood values "anomaly" due to "altitude exchange" since he's born and bred on Altitude environment-while Froome- having the same set of circumstances has not been subject to such study and his "data" appears "irrelevant" .........

bottom line is that cracks on the SKY shield are appearing & may widen up in the coming months...
 
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Dear Wiggo said:
Henao's agent gets a cut of his salary, not sure of his bonuses. If his client is not working, earning points, etc, his value goes down. If the UCI have no issue with the blood readings (clearly, something should have been done by now if they did), then it makes no sense to keep him out of competition, diminishing his ongoing value, and thus diminishing agent's fees.

So going to Gazetta to try and force Sky's hand to let Henao back onto the roster is the goal, surely?

Agent --> Gazetta "My boy Henao is off the roster"
Gazetta --> Sky "Is Henao off the roster?"
Sky have 2 choices:
1. Nope, he's gonna race XYZ. (Agent's intent)
2. Yes, and here's why. (Ohhhh sh!t)

Looks like it backfired on the agent and Henao, and if 2008 Rob Hayles BP anomaly is anything to go by, Henao is out, despite the team learning nothing untoward is going on, where over a period of X weeks his blood values were perfectly fine.

the reason they keep henao out of compedittion is the same reason why a schoolteacher accused by a student of rape is going to be put non-active until ivnestigation is finished, even if the person is completley innocent. that's how it goes in the human world fortunately
 
ScienceIsCool said:
I like the tinfoil hat. I'm keeping it. Maybe shift it a bit to the left for comfort...

Anyways, you're reading it all wrong. It looks like there's a new drug out there and quite a few riders are using it; not just Sky. And there's no way I believe that any team had a hand in creating it.

From the outside, Sky looks like it's in disarray. Going through a mental checklist of reasons (mainly financial or internal politics) past teams have exhibited this kind of behavior, I'm guessing it's something fairly unique.

The guess I'm pulling out of my tinfoil hat is that they're scrambling to manage a situation. One scenario is that they've been alerted to a new test. Maybe management is freaking out because they have no idea who is dirty and who is clean on their team? Maybe the riders are freaking out because they know who is dirty?

John Swanson

A good observation. Behavior is always the giveaway in such situations.

Wiggins who remained in TA demonstrated that he's not currently at risk. (He must be laughing now!)

I do find all this a little funny. The explanation I mean and the fact that Sky had the time to take the precursive action they did. I though the whole idea of drug testing that there was a "surprise" element.

Bring back Hein. He was so much better at this. Just a few phone calls. That's all that is needed :cool: