Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ryo Hazuki]

Henao's agent gets a cut of his salary, not sure of his bonuses. If his client is not working, earning points, etc, his value goes down. If the UCI have no issue with the blood readings (clearly, something should have been done by now if they did), then it makes no sense to keep him out of competition, diminishing his ongoing value, and thus diminishing agent's fees.

So going to Gazetta to try and force Sky's hand to let Henao back onto the roster is the goal, surely?

Agent --> Gazetta "My boy Henao is off the roster"
Gazetta --> Sky "Is Henao off the roster?"
Sky have 2 choices:
1. Nope, he's gonna race XYZ. (Agent's intent)
2. Yes, and here's why. (Ohhhh sh!t)

Looks like it backfired on the agent and Henao, and if 2008 Rob Hayles BP anomaly is anything to go by, Henao is out, despite the team learning nothing untoward is going on, where over a period of X weeks his blood values were perfectly fine.

the reason they keep henao out of compedittion is the same reason why a schoolteacher accused by a student of rape is going to be put non-active until ivnestigation is finished, even if the person is completley innocent. that's how it goes in the human world fortunately

 

[thehog]

I like the tinfoil hat. I'm keeping it. Maybe shift it a bit to the left for comfort...

Anyways, you're reading it all wrong. It looks like there's a new drug out there and quite a few riders are using it; not just Sky. And there's no way I believe that any team had a hand in creating it.

From the outside, Sky looks like it's in disarray. Going through a mental checklist of reasons (mainly financial or internal politics) past teams have exhibited this kind of behavior, I'm guessing it's something fairly unique.

The guess I'm pulling out of my tinfoil hat is that they're scrambling to manage a situation. One scenario is that they've been alerted to a new test. Maybe management is freaking out because they have no idea who is dirty and who is clean on their team? Maybe the riders are freaking out because they know who is dirty?

John Swanson

A good observation. Behavior is always the giveaway in such situations.

Wiggins who remained in TA demonstrated that he's not currently at risk. (He must be laughing now!)

I do find all this a little funny. The explanation I mean and the fact that Sky had the time to take the precursive action they did. I though the whole idea of drug testing that there was a "surprise" element.

Bring back Hein. He was so much better at this. Just a few phone calls. That's all that is needed

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

 

[thehog]

Indeed. What amazes me is How SKY is preparing this "research" on Henao's "sudden" blood values "anomaly" due to "altitude exchange" since he's born and bred on Altitude environment-while Froome- having the same set of circumstances has not been subject to such study and his "data" appears "irrelevant" .........

bottom line is that cracks on the SKY shield are appearing & may widen up in the coming months...

Filed alongside the infamous "donkey to racehorse" study of September 2011

 

[the sceptic]

I hope they pull Froome from competition ASAP and send him to Kenya to study the badzilla.

 

[martinvickers]

Henao's agent gets a cut of his salary, not sure of his bonuses. If his client is not working, earning points, etc, his value goes down. If the UCI have no issue with the blood readings (clearly, something should have been done by now if they did), then it makes no sense to keep him out of competition, diminishing his ongoing value, and thus diminishing agent's fees.

So going to Gazetta to try and force Sky's hand to let Henao back onto the roster is the goal, surely?

Agent --> Gazetta "My boy Henao is off the roster"
Gazetta --> Sky "Is Henao off the roster?"
Sky have 2 choices:
1. Nope, he's gonna race XYZ. (Agent's intent)
2. Yes, and here's why. (Ohhhh sh!t)

Looks like it backfired on the agent and Henao, and if 2008 Rob Hayles BP anomaly is anything to go by, Henao is out, despite the team learning nothing untoward is going on, where over a period of X weeks his blood values were perfectly fine.

DW, in your view does this further the possiblity that the management at Sky are basically straightish on doping, but that individuals are pursuing personal programs?

 

[SundayRider]

A good observation. Behavior is always the giveaway in such situations.

Wiggins who remained in TA demonstrated that he's not currently at risk. (He must be laughing now!)

I do find all this a little funny. The explanation I mean and the fact that Sky had the time to take the precursive action they did. I though the whole idea of drug testing that there was a "surprise" element.

Bring back Hein. He was so much better at this. Just a few phone calls. That's all that is needed

Just by sheer coincidence it happens to be that their best two GT riders pull out and do not start TA. Yet Wiggins who is racing like the true donkey he is remains in the race.

 

[bewildered]

can't you read? they are supportive of sky doing intertnal testing.

LOL. I'll give you an English lesson for free - when they say they are supportive of X AND Y AND Z, they are supportive of X, supportive of Y AND supportive of Z.

The UCI supports:-
1. the internal testing programme
2. the approach to the programme and
3. the approach to suspending the rider.

The reason why they support it is because 'this is their own programme and that's very important'. Yes, that makes sense.

 

[deviant]

Ever heard of "The Clear"? Well worth reading up on. It's nowhere near as expensive as you think to create a new, undetectable drug. And you don't even need a fancy, world class lab or lots of PhDs, either.

I'm well aware of the BALCO scandal and it did require a lab, scientists, chemists etc etc....its not like some bods at Team Sky can just knock together a new compound out the back of the team bus....its not cheap either, you have to put said new compound through all the current testing processes to make sure it is in fact undetectable.

Prior to getting old and taking up cycling my chosen sports were rugby, weightlifting and muay-thai....although i only competed locally and nationally the sports were rife with PEDs, i'm not naive on the matter and a lot of the recent 'designer steroids' were easily detectable despite being new compounds because they were simply derivatives of existing PEDs and had such schoolboy modifications as just adding an inert carbon molecule to the end of an existing compound to get round legal issues but still returned positive tests.

Depending on your agenda the recent events will be interpreted differently, my take is that Henao has been naughty while away in Colombia and JTL doped to make himself financially secure at Sky....both have been caught out, bravo to SKY, the UCI, Walsh, WADA or whoever has pinged these guys but i dont subscribe to the plethora of conspiracy theories on here.

If the team is in disarray (and who says they are?), then plans can be thrown into a spin by illness and injury....surely more believable than 'there is a new drug, there is now a test for the new drug, SKY are panicking!'....

Given that SKY have jettisoned most of their experienced back room staff due to a lot of those guys having confessed to doping in the past doesnt it make more sense that perhaps the team is lacking experienced management?....but no, the clinic default position on anything SKY related is that doping must be the reason for any withdrawal, any press release, any illness, any injury etc etc....

 

[the sceptic]

DW, in your view does this further the possiblity that the management at Sky are basically straightish on doping, but that individuals are pursuing personal programs?

No empire lasts forever Martin. Not even the british ones.

Its time you faced the facts. Sky are going down in flames, its just a matter of time.

 

[MartinGT]

Honestly, I really don't like the pulling out of Porte out of Tirreno-Adriatico. Anybody else has a comment about it?

I said this was dodgy at the time and with this coming out it looks even worse. The day before he looked all fine and dandy. Yet this apparently come on overnight!?

Who was his roomie? They seem fine whoever it is.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Just by sheer coincidence it happens to be that their best two GT riders pull out and do not start TA. Yet Wiggins who is racing like the true donkey he is remains in the race.

I would wait and see how the team respond in Spain over the next week.

Sir Wiggo could have won the final TT in Italy, putting Sky on the podium pretty much at the same time as the doping story hits the wire. Not good timing.

Anyway could be damage control involving key GT players this year.

Neutral for now at least for me.

 

[HSNHSN]

Given that SKY have jettisoned most of their experienced back room staff due to a lot of those guys having confessed to doping in the past doesnt it make more sense that perhaps the team is lacking experienced management?....but no, the clinic default position on anything SKY related is that doping must be the reason for any withdrawal, any press release, any illness, any injury etc etc....

If there's just some illness or injury or whatever, it isn't necessary doping. If there are so many things going on at the same time as currently is the case, it's highly suspicious at its best. The different facts have been mentioned already, so there's no need to repeat them and one has to agree it's quite an amount.

Is it actually a new doping test for some substance that has been used recently, but that couldn't be detected yet? I couldn't say and time will probably tell. For now, it just sounds like one of the least unlikely recent theories I've read in this topic. If there actually is a new drug test, I really hope it's used on some samples from GTs in the past few years, by the way.

 

[bewildered]

I'm well aware of the BALCO scandal and it did require a lab, scientists, chemists etc etc....its not like some bods at Team Sky can just knock together a new compound out the back of the team bus....its not cheap either, you have to put said new compound through all the current testing processes to make sure it is in fact undetectable.

Prior to getting old and taking up cycling my chosen sports were rugby, weightlifting and muay-thai....although i only competed locally and nationally the sports were rife with PEDs, i'm not naive on the matter and a lot of the recent 'designer steroids' were easily detectable despite being new compounds because they were simply derivatives of existing PEDs and had such schoolboy modifications as just adding an inert carbon molecule to the end of an existing compound to get round legal issues but still returned positive tests.

Depending on your agenda the recent events will be interpreted differently, my take is that Henao has been naughty while away in Colombia and JTL doped to make himself financially secure at Sky....both have been caught out, bravo to SKY, the UCI, Walsh, WADA or whoever has pinged these guys but i dont subscribe to the plethora of conspiracy theories on here.

If the team is in disarray (and who says they are?), then plans can be thrown into a spin by illness and injury....surely more believable than 'there is a new drug, there is now a test for the new drug, SKY are panicking!'....

Given that SKY have jettisoned most of their experienced back room staff due to a lot of those guys having confessed to doping in the past doesnt it make more sense that perhaps the team is lacking experienced management?....but no, the clinic default position on anything SKY related is that doping must be the reason for any withdrawal, any press release, any illness, any injury etc etc....

It is possible that a drug like the clear could be designed for Sky with their budget imo, but that was only raised because you suggested that they could be designing their own drugs. The post you raised that in response to mentioned that there was a new drug out there, not a new designer compound of an already existing drug that can be currently tested for. It is far more plausible that a new drug made for legitimate medical reasons, like EPO, is out there and has the effect of enhancing performance but is as yet undetectable

 

[martinvickers]

No empire lasts forever Martin. Not even the british ones.

Its time you faced the facts. Sky are going down in flames, its just a matter of time.

Time will tell. I've already noted I believe it looks very bad. And if they are at, good riddance, flush 'em.

But if this is team wide doping, I find the timeline and known facts very hard to get to make sense. DW seemed to be suggesting he felt this might be such a case; I merely saught clarification.

 

[bobbins]

At this rate Sky will be paying half the pro pelotons wages next season.

They should just employ someone who can put out an honest press release that isn't full of blatant half truths and possibly buy a gag for Bull$hit Brailsford.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm well aware of the BALCO scandal and it did require a lab, scientists, chemists etc etc....its not like some bods at Team Sky can just knock together a new compound out the back of the team bus....its not cheap either, you have to put said new compound through all the current testing processes to make sure it is in fact undetectable.

Tetrahydrogestrinone (often referred to as THG or The Clear) is an anabolic steroid developed by Patrick Arnold[1]

One bloke.

Patrick Arnold is an American organic chemist

A chemist.

The drug was unapproved - it didn't go through testing, etc. He made it, they took it. The end.

It was undetectable because it was a designer drug, for which no test had been developed, and noone knew about it.

 

[Samson777]

At this rate Sky will be paying half the pro pelotons wages next season.

They should just employ someone who can put out an honest press release that isn't full of blatant half truths and possibly buy a gag for Bull$hit Brailsford.

SKY to put out an hones press release That would be absolutely mental

 

[RownhamHill]

I said this was dodgy at the time and with this coming out it looks even worse. The day before he looked all fine and dandy. Yet this apparently come on overnight!?

Who was his roomie? They seem fine whoever it is.

Sorry, I'm struggling with how exactly the 'dodginess' manifests itself.

On one had you've got the naive explanation of an illness 'apparently' coming on overnight(?!) (Because that never happens to anyone in real life) and him pulling out of a race he wasn't going to win anyway.

So as that 'story' is so obviously dodgy, what's the real story do you think? Porte heard that Henao had been pulled out of the race roster a mere two weeks previous, and panicked and refused to finish the race, in case. . . well, in case what?

Or what about Porte heard there was a new test in town (randomly introduced half way through the race I guess), and pulled out to avoid being tested (except he could still be OOC tested, and if he wanted to avoid a test he could have just not finished on the podium)

Or what about Porte realised he didn't have the form to compete with Contador, so left early to fly to his secret doping base and get a whole extra three days doping in?

Or what is it exactly that his early exit signifies? And more to the point, what about all these riders who also apparently pulled out over night through the course of the race?

DNS Davide Malacarne (Fra) Europcar
DNS Christopher Horner (USA) Lampre-Merida
DNS Jens Mouris (Ned) Orica Greenedge
DNS Jesse Sergent (NZl) Trek Factory Racing
DNS Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team
DNS Moreno Moser (Ita) Cannondale
DNS André Greipel (Ger) Lotto Belisol
DNS Jens Debusschere (Bel) Lotto Belisol
DNS Marcel Sieberg (Ger) Lotto Belisol
DNS Paul Voss (Ger) Team NetApp - Endura
DNS Ian Stannard (GBr) Team Sky

 

[the sceptic]

I wonder what will happen with Dawg next week.

Still back injury?
Sudden drop in performance?
Sprinting away like nothing happened?

 

[Samson777]

I wonder what will happen with Dawg next week.

Still back injury?
Sudden drop in performance?
Sprinting away like nothing happened?

Probably the last one. Seriously doubt people in power would wanna bring the big British dog down anyway. But let's see, maybe the other teams did actually catch up with SKY.

 

[deviant]

Dear Wiggo

Making a compound that wont show up in current testing regimes is difficult....use testosterone as an example, you can modify the structure to skirt legal issues and get the drug on sale but it will still fail a drug test designed to pick up on testosterone levels.
For BALCO to have any kind of faith in THG not showing up in drug tests they would either have to be sure their compound is so far removed from anything else the authorities are looking for that drug tests are a non issue or they would have some reservations and would need to carry out their own tests on blood/urine from THG users to see if it fails any doping screens....hence the whole BALCO scandal as opposed to Patrick Arnold being a one man band.

As well financed as SKY are i dont see them carrying this off.

Likewise in response to incidents like this authorities started looking at testosterone levels in themselves rather than looking for the remnants of drugs in the system....the drug may be long gone (or undetectable) but if the effect of said drug is to raise testosterone levels than that will return a positive result....its why all those rows of legal supplements at the local gym have disclaimers on the side stating that you may fail a drug test by using their product, the product may be legal and probably not tested for but if it whacks your testosterone through the roof you will still fail on account of abnormal testosterone readings.

 

[MartinGT]

Sorry, I'm struggling with how exactly the 'dodginess' manifests itself.

On one had you've got the naive explanation of an illness 'apparently' coming on overnight(?!) (Because that never happens to anyone in real life) and him pulling out of a race he wasn't going to win anyway.

So as that 'story' is so obviously dodgy, what's the real story do you think? Porte heard that Henao had been pulled out of the race roster a mere two weeks previous, and panicked and refused to finish the race, in case. . . well, in case what?

Or what about Porte heard there was a new test in town (randomly introduced half way through the race I guess), and pulled out to avoid being tested (except he could still be OOC tested, and if he wanted to avoid a test he could have just not finished on the podium)

Or what about Porte realised he didn't have the form to compete with Contador, so left early to fly to his secret doping base and get a whole extra three days doping in?

Or what is it exactly that his early exit signifies? And more to the point, what about all these riders who also apparently pulled out over night through the course of the race?

DNS Davide Malacarne (Fra) Europcar
DNS Christopher Horner (USA) Lampre-Merida
DNS Jens Mouris (Ned) Orica Greenedge
DNS Jesse Sergent (NZl) Trek Factory Racing
DNS Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team
DNS Moreno Moser (Ita) Cannondale
DNS André Greipel (Ger) Lotto Belisol
DNS Jens Debusschere (Bel) Lotto Belisol
DNS Marcel Sieberg (Ger) Lotto Belisol
DNS Paul Voss (Ger) Team NetApp - Endura
DNS Ian Stannard (GBr) Team Sky

I thought it was dodgy because coompared to those you list there he finished 5th only a few hours before only 5s down on Bertie?!

 

[mewmewmew13]

So Froome pulls out of TA, Porte pulls out suddenly due to illness, Henao withdrawn from racing due to anomalies, Wiggins losing shed loads of time anytime the roads goes up.

What is going on ?

I was just asking myself the same…????

 

[Mellow Velo]

At this rate Sky will be paying half the pro pelotons wages next season.

They should just employ someone who can put out an honest press release that isn't full of blatant half truths and possibly buy a gag for Bull$hit Brailsford.

Half truths are still better than total guesswork.

Instead of blowing hot air, folks need to investigate the Gazzetta angle to see if any of the gaping holes in this latest speculation earthquake can be filled in.
They weren't even in the first tranche of media sites to break the story.
Does their version mention Henao's agent and an alternative version or motive behind the release of the information?

Are their any links to any clues that Gazzetta might have known of a cover up?

Otherwise, it's business as usual, with ridicule getting constructed out of thin air around here.