Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Jul 21, 2012
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burning said:
But, that passport thingy is working so well to catch cheaters :rolleyes:
the bio passport no longer needs testing. It has become magic.

it now works on faith alone. If you are british, and say to yourself "the biopassport works" then it does. :eek:
 
Dec 13, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
I was thinking about this today, and wondering how someone who is actually racing and training on the road is gaining muscle bulk. Yes, Wiggo had a track focus, but he sure as hell was still riding and racing on protour teams on the road, pretty much the rest of the year.

And despite it being a track event, other than the start, upper body muscle doesn't do much for a pursuiter. You're sitting down after a lap or less, and weight in the corners - muscle or otherwise - is not an advantage, the opposite is truer. The first lap is 1/16 of the race, and you can lose say 1 second on a bad vs a good start at that level, which is ~1/240th of the event duration.

My guess is there was far less upper body muscle to lose than some people think.

They may be track riders, but they're still doing 20,000 km a year training.
This. He didn't go from muscular track rider to slim road rider. He went from slim road rider build to super super skinny road rider build.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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sniper said:
strawman.
Cut it out please, thanks.
That's the second time you have used that term about a comment I made to another poster. Not you. Please;

i) explain why you disagree with with my reply rather than simply repeating a word

ii) stop telling me what I can post. There's a report post feature for these concerns.
 
May 26, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Why? Sky and BC are the same thing. Why in the world would they invite anti-doping controversy onto their own project?
Their own project has the presidency of UCI...................
 
Benotti69 said:
Their own project has the presidency of UCI...................
Even if Cookson wasn't President, why would they even tempt fate if the organization was pure as driven snow?

This management structure is a guaranteed doping and never testing positive situation. As long as the UCI "likes" your team, it's good all the way to a TdF podium.
 

Justinr

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Feb 18, 2013
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Dear Wiggo said:
Maybe it should list "Person who will stop any more soigneurs from dying", wouldn't you think?
On a serious point can I just ask if anything untoward was ever linked to this death (I have searched and cant find anything).
 
May 26, 2009
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Justinr said:
On a serious point can I just ask if anything untoward was ever linked to this death (I have searched and cant find anything).
Didn't they(family) have the body cremated pretty quickly and no autopsy was performed. (Unless I've remembered it wrong and that's possible)
 

Justinr

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Feb 18, 2013
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Benotti69 said:
Their own project has the presidency of UCI...................
True Cookson is now UCI president, but wasnt at the time people have been mentioning about no testing. You cant connect the two situations.
 

Justinr

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Feb 18, 2013
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BYOP88 said:
Didn't they(family) have the body cremated pretty quickly and no autopsy was performed.
I just asked because I thought it was bad taste with the comment about a doctor to prevent soigneurs dying.

As far as I am aware there was nothing dodgy about this and to suggest it was (even in jest) is a poor show. That man no doubt left a family behind who will grieve for some time.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Justinr said:
As far as I am aware there was nothing dodgy about this and to suggest it was (even in jest) is a poor show. That man no doubt left a family behind who will grieve for some time.
I can assure you, the comment was not made in jest. I add smilies if I am jesting.

If a healthy, extremely competent and capable soigneur dies of blood poisoning at work, I think there's something wrong.

If he dies helping a team claiming marginal gains via washing of hands, even more so.
 

Justinr

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Feb 18, 2013
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Dear Wiggo said:
I can assure you, the comment was not made in jest. I add smilies if I am jesting.

If a healthy, extremely competent and capable soigneur dies of blood poisoning at work, I think there's something wrong.

If he dies helping a team claiming marginal gains via washing of hands, even more so.
Ok no smiles fair enough but I still think the connection you might have been making (or implying) is in poor taste by saying Leinders (or whoever else) were there as doctors to "prevent soigneur deaths".

Sometimes people contract illnesses and die, for whatever reason. I, personally, think your comment was bad taste.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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In 2010, Team Sky were 13th on the cqranking teams list, with less than half the points of the top team:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2010

A year later, they were working with Leinders, and the rest of the staff was pretty much the same (Kerrison, Ellingworth, Brailsford, Fran Millar, etc) and they leap frogged to first, beating second place by a healthy 10%:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2011

A year later, Sky are still on top, only this time, they are beating second place by 30%:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2012

They fire Leinders, and in 2013, slip to 2nd place, but only just:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2013

It's not proof. But for me, it's pretty strong evidence.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Justinr said:
Ok no smiles fair enough but I still think the connection you might have been making (or implying) is in poor taste by saying Leinders (or whoever else) were there as doctors to "prevent soigneur deaths".

Sometimes people contract illnesses and die, for whatever reason. I, personally, think your comment was bad taste.
1. It was not an illness.
2. Healthy people do not "contract bacterial septicemia and die" just willy nilly.
3. Brailsford is the one who claimed they hired Leinders to prevent it from happening again.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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Dear Wiggo said:
2. Healthy people do not "contract bacterial septicemia and die" just willy nilly.
Yes they do.
Read up on Menigococcal Septicemia for just one example.

I'm not saying I know what happened anymore than you but blanket statements like yours above needs correcting, it shows massive bias to support your case for Sky doping while conveniently ignoring the fact that certain illnesses can and do affect otherwise healthy people out of the blue.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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Dear Wiggo said:
In 2010, Team Sky were 13th on the cqranking teams list, with less than half the points of the top team:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2010

A year later, they were working with Leinders, and the rest of the staff was pretty much the same (Kerrison, Ellingworth, Brailsford, Fran Millar, etc) and they leap frogged to first, beating second place by a healthy 10%:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2011

A year later, Sky are still on top, only this time, they are beating second place by 30%:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2012

They fire Leinders, and in 2013, slip to 2nd place, but only just:

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2013

It's not proof. But for me, it's pretty strong evidence.
How to control for the variables in these raw data?

In 2010, their first season fired up by hubris they may have been hampered by DB's well known ignorance about the first thing to do with road cycling. A year later they had hired Rogers, Uran etc. And Wiggins was more 2009 (pre Sky and Leinders presumably) than 2010 up to his injury.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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You can try to twist it as much as you like, but the fact remains that Sky's results in stage races improved dramatically after they hired Dr. Leinders, a well known doping doctor.
 
let's twist again

peloton said:
You can try to twist it as much as you like, but the fact remains that Sky's results in stage races improved dramatically after they hired Dr. Leinders, a well known doping doctor.
sky's results in stage races improved after the team banned nutella ..........why twist things to avoid the obvious truth?

Mark L
 
May 2, 2010
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ebandit said:
sky's results in stage races improved after the team banned nutella ..........why twist things to avoid the obvious truth?

Mark L
I thought it was because they only started washing their hands in 2011? I'm so confused :(
 
Freddythefrog said:
Isn't that the very best summary of where we have been since 2012. The organised cheats remain steps ahead of the testers. If Sky remain number 1 beneficiaries of using science to know exactly where there is a line and where no line exists, then by voting Cookson to watch duties, there is a guy at the helm who will only put the telescope to his blind eye, for his 5 or 6 year tenure.

This is a guy whose raison d'etre is linked with the rise of British Cycling from Boardman roasting World Champ, East German Jens Lehmann 1992 (Wall down 1989) who most certainly could only have been a product of a systemised doping regimen of the DDR. The "magic bike" never seemed quite so good when ridden by other Brit riders. There was no test for EPO, so a fair hypotheses would be that Boardman & Keen did not cross the line, but spotted where there was no line and took advantage of moving into the void (i) before their competitors had grasped what epo was doing on the road and (ii) before the muppets in charge were woken from being asleep at the wheel and did something to address the issues.
Move on through Queally and the sprint boys with access to the best supplements, and the endurance track riders, through Cav in 2009 right up to Wiggins 2012 and Froome 2013. Froome and the rest are not going to trip any wire, they are surrounded by the best science, that informs them exactly what tripwires are around them and how close to any obstacles they are. Even if a tester were to call at a stage in the "preparation cycle" when a rider knew he was over the top, the rider would cynically miss a test. These guys are informed beyond any who have gone before.

The Hayles' infraction of the 50% trip and reaction to it, told anyone, who was awake, all they needed to know. Here was a rider with a professional wrestler as a dad who, in his young senior years, rode the 6 day scene. How many sack-fulls of reality do you need to suspend, to not think the guy found out exactly how to juice during that time in the late 90's? So Brailsford spins the tale about being in the car on the morning the news breaks, when Hayles calls his wife and she asks him - "darling - tell me you never doped, tell me the truth now - I will be sooo upset if you tell me any nasty drugs have ever crossed your mouth - I married my hero - I believe in you, tell me it ain't so !"

Hayles has grown up in a home where the breadwinner has been part of a Saturday afternoon, prime time TV con, perpetrated every week, for years, in front of millions. This was simply more pap spun from Sir David for the dumbar*es who want escape reality by having a man-crush on their heroes.

No, right now even if, on a solid gold salver, the dream test arrived, Cookson could point at all the (totally useless) testing cycling is doing and tell them to take it to another sport. After all isn't Usain Bolt and the Jamaican Fed taking the p**s in a style so big it makes cycling look like a paragon.

At this stage of his life, having politicked his way up a greasy pole and been stood, so many times, in exactly the right place at exactly the right time, when lady luck came to call, the last thing Cookson wants is somebody coming out with something that exposes Sir David, Sir Bradley and the whole pyramid back to Keen and Boardman.

We are in the new "big mig" years. Everyone knows what is being presented to us is a complete farce, but it will be the next generation that get exposed for doing exactly what this generation did. Sir Brad, Sir Dave, Cav and a few others will be well off the scene before then.

As the man says - Cycling sucks in '14 and nothing is going to get fixed any year soon. Watch it if you enjoyed professional wrestling on a Saturday afternoon.

Outstanding....
 
May 26, 2010
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Freddythefrog said:
Isn't that the very best summary of where we have been since 2012. The organised cheats remain steps ahead of the testers. If Sky remain number 1 beneficiaries of using science to know exactly where there is a line and where no line exists, then by voting Cookson to watch duties, there is a guy at the helm who will only put the telescope to his blind eye, for his 5 or 6 year tenure.

This is a guy whose raison d'etre is linked with the rise of British Cycling from Boardman roasting World Champ, East German Jens Lehmann 1992 (Wall down 1989) who most certainly could only have been a product of a systemised doping regimen of the DDR. The "magic bike" never seemed quite so good when ridden by other Brit riders. There was no test for EPO, so a fair hypotheses would be that Boardman & Keen did not cross the line, but spotted where there was no line and took advantage of moving into the void (i) before their competitors had grasped what epo was doing on the road and (ii) before the muppets in charge were woken from being asleep at the wheel and did something to address the issues.
Move on through Queally and the sprint boys with access to the best supplements, and the endurance track riders, through Cav in 2009 right up to Wiggins 2012 and Froome 2013. Froome and the rest are not going to trip any wire, they are surrounded by the best science, that informs them exactly what tripwires are around them and how close to any obstacles they are. Even if a tester were to call at a stage in the "preparation cycle" when a rider knew he was over the top, the rider would cynically miss a test. These guys are informed beyond any who have gone before.

The Hayles' infraction of the 50% trip and reaction to it, told anyone, who was awake, all they needed to know. Here was a rider with a professional wrestler as a dad who, in his young senior years, rode the 6 day scene. How many sack-fulls of reality do you need to suspend, to not think the guy found out exactly how to juice during that time in the late 90's? So Brailsford spins the tale about being in the car on the morning the news breaks, when Hayles calls his wife and she asks him - "darling - tell me you never doped, tell me the truth now - I will be sooo upset if you tell me any nasty drugs have ever crossed your mouth - I married my hero - I believe in you, tell me it ain't so !"

Hayles has grown up in a home where the breadwinner has been part of a Saturday afternoon, prime time TV con, perpetrated every week, for years, in front of millions. This was simply more pap spun from Sir David for the dumbar*es who want escape reality by having a man-crush on their heroes.

No, right now even if, on a solid gold salver, the dream test arrived, Cookson could point at all the (totally useless) testing cycling is doing and tell them to take it to another sport. After all isn't Usain Bolt and the Jamaican Fed taking the p**s in a style so big it makes cycling look like a paragon.

At this stage of his life, having politicked his way up a greasy pole and been stood, so many times, in exactly the right place at exactly the right time, when lady luck came to call, the last thing Cookson wants is somebody coming out with something that exposes Sir David, Sir Bradley and the whole pyramid back to Keen and Boardman.

We are in the new "big mig" years. Everyone knows what is being presented to us is a complete farce, but it will be the next generation that get exposed for doing exactly what this generation did. Sir Brad, Sir Dave, Cav and a few others will be well off the scene before then.

As the man says - Cycling sucks in '14 and nothing is going to get fixed any year soon. Watch it if you enjoyed professional wrestling on a Saturday afternoon.
Great post.
 
............

Digger said:
Outstanding....
nicely written...........digger do you reply 'outstanding' because it's completely 'on the money' factually correct or because it fits your own narrative

so far there is no real evidence of boardman doping.....from here does the whole pyramid theory collapse?

Mark L
 
Sep 29, 2012
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deviant said:
Yes they do.
Read up on Menigococcal Septicemia for just one example.

I'm not saying I know what happened anymore than you but blanket statements like yours above needs correcting, it shows massive bias to support your case for Sky doping while conveniently ignoring the fact that certain illnesses can and do affect otherwise healthy people out of the blue.
1 to 5 per 100,000 in developed countries
...
The case fatality rate ranges between 10 and 20 per cent.
Worst case scenario: 1 in 100,000. ie Unsual, rare and unlikely. [ETA not] willy nilly.

You are more likely to get stomach cancer in Spain (7 in 100,000) than Menigococcal Septicemia.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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Dear Wiggo said:
Worst case scenario: 1 in 100,000. ie Unsual, rare and unlikely. Willy nilly.

You are more likely to get stomach cancer in Spain (7 in 100,000) than Menigococcal Septicemia.
It happens though does it not?.... Somebody has to be the unfortunate 1 in 100,000

You stated that healthy people don't contact these illnesses and die, they do unfortunately.... the 'willy nilly' part of your post would have some relevance if more than one member of the team died.
Thankfully cancer is rare too but I'm sure if somebody from Sky became unwell with this then you'd find a way to link it to 'evidence' of doping.

The desperation to link everything Sky do to doping is comedy gold, the forum is rapidly becoming a parody of itself.
In another thread Froome is being referred to as the strongest cyclist we've ever seen, really?.... Stronger than Merckx et al?....the hyperbole is out of control.

Froome looks decidedly ordinary so far this year, Contador and Rodriguez on the other hand?....but I'm sure somebody will pipe up shortly to give some convoluted reason that this is 'evidence' for Sky's doping.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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deviant said:
It happens though does it not?.... Somebody has to be the unfortunate 1 in 100,000

You stated that healthy people don't contact these illnesses and die, they do unfortunately.... the 'willy nilly' part of your post would have some relevance if more than one member of the team died.
Wrong. Willy nilly means "all over the place". It is in fact very rare and very unusual. No indication was given how it manifested, so we don't know its type, nor how he got it.

We do know
* soigneurs have in the past been known to inject themselves with their own concoctions
* Txema knew David Millar and David considered him a friend at the time he was caught with EPO by the French police
* Txema worked with David and became good friends with him at Saunier Duval, where Ricco et al got popped
* Sky had a crap 2010
* half the team had already dropped out of the race - in the first week, due to a mystery virus
* bad blood transfusions lead to the same symptoms the riders were apparently experiencing (doping gone bad)
* the death lead to the hiring of a doping doctor
* despite having a virus decimating the team, they pulled out due to their carer's death, not for fear of transmitting the "virus" to the rest of the peloton

deviant said:
Thankfully cancer is rare too but I'm sure if somebody from Sky became unwell with this then you'd find a way to link it to 'evidence' of doping.
A single type of cancer is 7 times more likely than the scepticemia you claimed was not rare.

Whilst I would not immediately link cancer to doping, Dr Michele Ferrari is allegedly said to be concerned that the doping regime he put Lance on lead to Lance's cancer. HgH and EPO are in fact good at producing cancer in users.
 
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