Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Dec 7, 2010
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ScienceIsCool said:
Also note that it's odd that his bilharzia was detected by blood test. Normally the diagnosis is made by counting the number of eggs per gram (epg) in the stool or urine. I doubt the actual mature parasite would be captured by a thin guage needle used in blood sampling.
Although I did just retrieve this:
If your GP suspects you have schistosomiasis, you will probably be referred to an expert in tropical diseases. The diagnosis is usually made by testing a sample of your blood. In some cases, eggs may be seen in a urine or stool (faeces) sample.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/schistosomiasis/Pages/Introduction.aspx
 
EnacheV said:
A single treatment ? What is this disinformation bullcrap? A 5 sec Google search lands multiple results that treatment can last for years.

Schistosomiasis is readily treated using a single oral dose of the drug praziquantel annually.
You didn't reveal your source for that quote. Funny. You did for the quotes that don't matter but didn't for the one that does.

Let me help you out
Source: Wikipedia.
 

EnacheV

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Jul 7, 2013
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The Hitch said:
You didn't reveal your source for that quote. Funny. You did for the quotes that don't matter but didn't for the one that does.

Let me help you out
Source: Wikipedia.

Now step aside junior and let the adults continue their discussion.
Do i have to size 4 and bold ANNUALY ? Dude, you are not even a junior. Mind of a toddler maybe.
 

EnacheV

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Jul 7, 2013
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Schistosomiasis is readily treated using a single oral dose of the drug praziquantel annually.

this quote matters to

it shows that there is no bilhazaria conspiracy and it fits perfectly and exhaustively to explain Froome's evolution.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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EnacheV said:
Science of lies. Why you post lies? Do you think we are all idiots that can't use google search.

I'm not gonna repeat.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1438803&postcount=26150

A 5 sec google search can easily destroy all your conspiracy theories in a blink, revealing a huge trail of lies.
Wow.

Well, my source of information is the schistosomiasis research group as linked above. Please go take a look at the life cycle. The mature worm is killed off with medication, leaving any eggs intact. Any eggs not excreted can cause problems, but the eggs will NOT hatch inside the body. To get more parasites requires that you be re-infected.

So yes, a single treatment will generally be sufficient.

John Swanson
 

EnacheV

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Jul 7, 2013
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ScienceIsCool said:
So yes, a single treatment will generally be sufficient.

John Swanson
science is not made with "generally"

you were Froome's doctor? No? than "generally" doesn't work at all.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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EnacheV said:
science is not made with "generally"

you were Froome's doctor? No? than "generally" doesn't work at all.
Yes, generally, because the drug isn't 100% effective on juvenile worms (~2 weeks old). The adults all get zapped. So let's say 5% of the juveniles survive. That may or may not be enough to cause problems as they mature, mate, and then lay eggs.

John Swanson
 
To briefly put an end to Enache's umm, contribution, so we can move on here, since he is not the first person to come into the discussion having done no research and act like some expert because they read something on wikipedia.

The "annually" quote, comes from wikipedia. Anything from wikipedia requires a source.

The source on wikipedia (I'll save Enache the trouble of looking it up himself) as was established a year ago is the Carter foundation.

The Carter Foundation is a charity which deals with poor people who live in areas of high risk of getting reinfected with Bilharzia. It recommends annual treatment because it is cheaper and more efficient to simply give everyone living in these areas, yearly doses of Prazanquitel (which contrary to what Froome says has few side effects) than it is to test everyone for Bilharzia all the time.

Froome lives in Monaco and races in Europe. Neither of these are areas of high risk, or since they aren't located in the tropics any risk. He has the money and the means to afford checkups and treatments to actually tell when he has Bilharzia, his profession requires he know immediately and his team and governing body do it for him anyway. Since he doesn't step into Bilharzia infected lakes, on his day to day, he has no way of getting reinfected in the first place.

Until Froome becomes a member of a Kenyan lake tribe, who needs to risk getting Bilharzia every day to meet subsistance, the findings and recommendations of the Carter Foundation, do not apply to him, no more than they do to anyone on this forum.

Now lets, move on.
 

EnacheV

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Jul 7, 2013
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The Hitch said:
To briefly put an end to Enache's umm, contribution, so we can move on here, since he is not the first person to come into the discussion having done no research and act like some expert because they read something on wikipedia.

The "annually" quote, comes from wikipedia. Anything from wikipedia requires a source.

The source on wikipedia (I'll save Enache the trouble of looking it up himself) as was established a year ago is the Carter foundation.

The Carter Foundation is a charity which deals with poor people who live in areas of high risk of getting reinfected with Bilharzia. It recommends annual treatment because it is cheaper and more efficient to simply give everyone living in these areas, yearly doses of Prazanquitel (which contrary to what Froome says has few side effects) than it is to test everyone for Bilharzia all the time.

Froome lives in Monaco and races in Europe. Neither of these are areas of high risk, or since they aren't located in the tropics any risk. He has the money and the means to afford checkups and treatments to actually tell when he has Bilharzia, his profession requires he know immediately and his team and governing body do it for him anyway. Since he doesn't step into Bilharzia infected lakes, on his day to day, he has no way of getting reinfected in the first place.

Until Froome becomes a member of a Kenyan lake tribe, who needs to risk getting Bilharzia every day to meet subsistance, the findings and recommendations of the Carter Foundation, do not apply to him, no more than they do to anyone on this forum.

Now lets, move on.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/schistosomiasis/Pages/Treatment.aspx

The medication used to treat schistosomiasis is called praziquantel. Praziquantel works by first paralysing the worms and then dissolving their outer casing, killing them. A single dose of praziquantel is usually required, but sometimes a longer course is needed.
lol conspiracy

What is funny is that a 5 sec Google search negates all the "statements" made by most of the conspiracy theorists.

now shushh and find some founded doping doubts. I'm not impressed at all by the "evidence" i find here.
 
Even if we believe his version...and even if we accept that's why he improved so suddenly (I don't) but let's for the sake of argument, why was he still such a poor rider before he got Bilharzia in 2009?
 

EnacheV

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Jul 7, 2013
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Digger said:
Even if we believe his version...and even if we accept that's why he improved so suddenly (I don't) but let's for the sake of argument, why was he still such a poor rider before he got Bilharzia in 2009?
Before 2009 was 2008 which was a decent first year for him ?

Added to his lack of cycling education, unstable family situation and who knows what else.

He might be doping but the clues are pretty weak for me. If you think all peleton is doping than ofc he is doping, but if you think some are clean than the clues are weak.
 
Apr 8, 2014
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Digger said:
Even if we believe his version...and even if we accept that's why he improved so suddenly (I don't) but let's for the sake of argument, why was he still such a poor rider before he got Bilharzia in 2009?
Yup. I have him contracting it around October 2009, per his quotes in a video interview with Cycling News. Yet elsewhere he states that it affected him throughout his time at Barloworld. What's it to be?
 
Apr 8, 2014
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EnacheV said:
Before 2009 was 2008 which was a decent first year for him ?

Added to his lack of cycling education, unstable family situation and who knows what else.

He might be doping but the clues are pretty weak for me. If you think all peleton is doping than ofc he is doping, but if you think some are clean than the clues are weak.
In the words of the man himself: "That (bilharzia) was the reason why I sometimes was abnormally tired and was just average with Team Barloworld and my first year at Sky"

From 2008-10, he was by his own admission very much less than decent. But even if you believe that the bilharzia was the reason for that, it doesn't account for 2008 and much of 2009- when he didn't even have it.
 
"
Chris was just an unpolished diamond," says former American professional Bobby Julich, Froome's personal trainer for the past two seasons. "As soon as I met him, I could see that he was switched on professionally, but maybe he was a bit over his head in the day-to-day life stuff. But right away I could see that his numbers were great."

Although Julich immediately saw Froome’s potential, he was puzzled by his inconsistency. But after examining the rider’s records and training journals, he discovered that Froome had suffered from the rare parasite Bilharzia.

"In the 2011 Tour of California, he was amazing one day and really bad the next. So we tested for Bilharzia again and sure enough he had it. And once he got treatment, he started progressing again." The Bilharzia has returned on occasion, but Julich and Froome can now immediately identify the symptoms.
So many new questions from that alone....
 
EnacheV said:
What is funny is that a 5 sec Google search negates all the "statements" made by most of the conspiracy theorists.
Not a scientist are ye? Relying on a 5 second Google search rather than research in a scientific discussion, seems to me to be the problem to begin with ;)

But anyway, could you please elaborate which theories exactly your Google search negates?

As in write down the theory and then next to it right down how your Google search "negates" it.

Put it in colours too. I like colours :)
 
Apr 8, 2014
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Digger said:
"

So many new questions from that alone....
That article is hilarious. "Although Julich immediately saw Froome’s potential, he was puzzled by his inconsistency. But after examining the rider’s records and training journals, he discovered that Froome had suffered from the rare parasite Bilharzia". Bobby Julich, doctor. So who told Bicycling that Julich had diagnosed the bilharzia? Froome? Julich himself? Brailsford?

Plus, when he examined his records, what did Julich find that was so different from what Dr Freeman found in September 2011? Considering Freeman had no idea what had led to Froome's rise, other than that it wasn't anything dodgy?
 
Apr 8, 2014
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"I really do think the best thing to do with the whole doping culture of the sport, to move past that image that we've had in the past, is to talk about it," said Froome.
"Be completely open and say: 'Listen, this was is what happened in the sport back then but it's definitely not happening any more, and these are the reasons.'

Good idea.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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EnacheV said:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/schistosomiasis/Pages/Treatment.aspx

lol conspiracy

What is funny is that a 5 sec Google search negates all the "statements" made by most of the conspiracy theorists.

now shushh and find some founded doping doubts. I'm not impressed at all by the "evidence" i find here.
It's interesting that you find trouble with "A single dose of praziquantel is usually required, but sometimes a longer course is needed." while this is is explained later on in the same source in a manner that is entirely consistent with the explanations given by ScienceIsCool. Just to spell it out:

nhs said:
Treatment with praziquantel is usually delayed until three months after infection as this is when it is most effective.
Young schisto adults aren't always affected by the medicine. So we wait until they have matured enough to be sure they're killed by it.

nhs said:
If eggs were identified in your urine or stools, a further sample may be taken after four to six weeks to check whether there are still any eggs. If eggs are present, further treatment with praziquantel may be given.
If there were some younger schistos present that weren't in one go killed by the medicine, they may have procreated. Which will result in more eggs that might be found a few weeks later. In this case, another treatment is needed. So indeed, "sometimes a longer course is needed". Which corresponds exactly to what SIC wrote in his extensive post before. If I misunderstood him, he'll hopefully point this out.



On a side note, I have to admit to being biased. For completely unapparent reasons, I tend to believe a research group at the university of Cambridge more than wikipedia.
 
The Hitch said:
Not a scientist are ye? Relying on a 5 second Google search rather than research in a scientific discussion, seems to me to be the problem to begin with ;)

But anyway, could you please elaborate which theories exactly your Google search negates?

As in write down the theory and then next to it right down how your Google search "negates" it.

Put it in colours too. I like colours :)
Wow, enache's list is going to be long. 3 hours compiling it, and still he hasn't finished. Look forward to reading it.
 
Jul 28, 2010
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Digger said:
It was late 2010 at the wedding of my brother in Kenya, when the International Cycling Union (UCI) checked me for the blood passport. I immediately asked to examine all parameters. Then she discovered that I suffer from the disease.''
Digger said:
“I'd gone to Kenya to see family and did the normal UCI blood passport tests. At the same time I said to the doctor, 'Can't you scan for anything that's not right in my blood?' He came back straight away and said you're riddled with bilharzia."
These are key quotes. He was tested by the UCI in 2010 and his blood passport produced dodgy results. He immediately asked for all parameters (normal when preparing a defense). "She" discovered he suffered from "the disease". It was only later that it became his golden ticket and excuse for all future performances and a free pass for any passport anomalies.

We were pitched by Sky, Froome, Brailsford, Julich et al that they uncovered the "disease" and thereby revealed an unprecedented diamond in the rough, which explains all. Instead, the truth is he spun a tale, or put a spin on his blood passport results such that Kenya apparently did not open a case against him (which stands to reason as he was a nobody). And it turned out his tale was spun with gold.
 
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