Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[martinvickers]

Potty mouth.

As for what "Americans" do...I guess we can't count on the Brit's or Irish to do the right thing even when they have no other option...unless you can point me to one that has exposed the lie like Floyd did...I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath...

Where do you think Walsh and Kimmage are from, Brazil?

Anyway, I like Floyd. Sure he has a mixed past, but so do I...and so do a lot of people.

I don't tend to steal people's money to fund cases based on a lie, dope to the gills to defraud my way through races, or have my 'boys' bully and harass sex abuse victims for advantage in court cases. You may have a different definition of mixed to me. If your mixed past measured up to Floyd's you'd be a pretty dispicable person. I rather doubt it does. I certainly hope not.

What counts to me is the fact that he didn't pull any punches when he exposed the lie. Sir Bradley hasn't exposed anything but the fact that even "bone idle w**kers" are more honest and worthy of esteem than is he.

Sir Bradley is king of the...well, you know my thoughts.

Never ceases to amaze me how much that remark stung it's targets. How dare he cross the twitterati, eh?

I'm sorry, but Wiggins has a LONG way to go, even if he is doping, to match the pure mendacity of some of Landis' antics. And the relief that Landis finally spewed enough to take down Armstrong doesn't change that.

Landis v Armstrong. It's a bit like being a man utd fan as man city play liverpool for the title - in your heart, you don't really care who wins, you really only want to see lots of red cards and bad injuries.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, because floyd was always and ever a bastian of truthiness

Because Wiggins didn't know for a fact that what he told was the truth

 

[martinvickers]

EDIT: And please, for the love of all that is holy, don't even try to include David "No really, it was my first time trying EPO" Millar in the pantheon of riders who have exposed the lie of the peloton.

I didn't, as you can see - tho he kinda, sorta, did, a bit.

Honestly, I'm a life banner. And that includes Millar, very very muchly.

EDIT 2: In all honesty, I understand the dislike of admiration for Landis. I do believe that the honesty he showed transformed him in many ways, but I can understand why others wouldn't.

YMMV, but he still seems pretty unapologetic about his own actual doping, and while some of his recent lashing out has been genuinely funny, it didn't warm me to him - had an almost Ricco-ish quality to it.

EDIT 3: Sorry, Millar is Scottish, right? So I guess you should include them too.

Actually, he's Hong-Kong maltese !! Another of the list of not actually born in Britian brits - Wiggins (belgium), Froome (Kenya), Cavendish, Kennagh (Isle of Man - not part of UK)

Hey!! Maybe that's the problem!! they need UKIP on the case - bl00dy foreigners ...

(meanwhile we just invite everyone in for a hooley, and if they like the first pint of Murphy's the passport's theirs )

 

[gooner]

I don't get the hero worship either of Landis. I'm glad he did it as we got rid of some of the bad apples from the sport but I'm not buying he somehow did it for the good of the sport. You read Juliet's book and you will see Landis first heard about the whistleblower attempt from Prentice Steffen wanting to do it. The whistleblower incentive was for me the main reason why he did all this, not for some "good of the sport" going forward.

On top of this, I don't have the time of the day for his previous shenanigans that have mentioned just now and you forget to mention hacking into the French Anti-Doping Agency. None of this is to be admired.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Where do you think Walsh and Kimmage are from, Brazil?

In all honesty, I don't see Walsh or Kimmage in the same league as Landis in terms of involvement in doping. Someone like Kelly or Roche?

I didn't, as you can see - tho he kinda, sorta, did, a bit.

Honestly, I'm a life banner. And that includes Millar, very very muchly.



YMMV, but he still seems pretty unapologetic about his own actual doping, and while some of his recent lashing out has been genuinely funny, it didn't warm me to him - had an almost Ricco-ish quality to it.



Actually, he's Hong-Kong maltese !! Another of the list of not actually born in Britian brits - Wiggins (belgium), Froome (Kenya), Cavendish, Kennagh (Isle of Man - not part of UK)

Hey!! Maybe that's the problem!! they need UKIP on the case - bl00dy foreigners ...

(meanwhile we just invite everyone in for a hooley, and if they like the first pint of Murphy's the passport's theirs )

Like I said, I understand the distrust of Landis, but I've known people who did much worse, and I love them to death for who they became once they started being honest about it. I would also suggest that you take Lemond's change of heart after Floyd apologized as evidence that maybe he was sincere. As for his attitude for his doping, I don't really have that much of a problem with it in all honesty. I used more drugs than them all (actually, today is my 23 year anniversary being sober), and I don't apologize for what I did in terms of taking drugs. I made amends for what I did to people while I was using, but I don't regret a single thing I did.

 

[sniper]

I don't get the hero worship either of Landis. I'm glad he did it as we got rid of some of the bad apples from the sport but I'm not buying he somehow did it for the good of the sport. You read Juliet's book and you will see Landis first heard about the whistleblower attempt from Prentice Steffen wanting to do it. The whistleblower incentive was for me the main reason why he did all this, not for some "good of the sport" going forward.

who said that?

 

[Netserk]

who said that?

I thought the same.

"Sure you're not buying, but that's because no one's selling."

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I don't get the hero worship either of Landis. I'm glad he did it as we got rid of some of the bad apples from the sport but I'm not buying he somehow did it for the good of the sport. You read Juliet's book and you will see Landis first heard about the whistleblower attempt from Prentice Steffen wanting to do it. The whistleblower incentive was for me the main reason why he did all this, not for some "good of the sport" going forward.

On top of this, I don't have the time of the day for his previous shenanigans that have mentioned just now and you forget to mention hacking into the French Anti-Doping Agency. None of this is to be admired.

None of us get why you defend and support the Sky farce, so I guess we're equal.

As for Floyd. He isn't a "hero." He's just a dude that gave me a great morning in May one time. I still remember with glee reading those emails for the first time. When you've heard gut level honesty about a checkered past as many times as I have, you recognize when someone said to themselves "**** it, I'm telling it all." That is exactly what he did. I don't really care why he did it. I didn't get sober because I wanted to be a nice guy...most people don't understand, and they don't have to. It appears that like me, Floyd doesn't give a s**t about what you or others think of his life. Carry on in your world of make-believe.

 

[Justinr]

Big Riccardo Ricco fans so I assume. Wiggos predecessor as "Mr personality" in the sport. E.g. when he said women shouldn't take part in cycling.

Actually never saw that, was just referring to the SPOTY thing. You must admit that some of the past SPOTY winners haven't had any personality at all. Wiggo at least raises a few eyebrows with his - sometimes for the wrong reasons I grant you...

 

[Justinr]

Potty mouth.

As for what "Americans" do...I guess we can't count on the Brit's or Irish to do the right thing even when they have no other option...unless you can point me to one that has exposed the lie like Floyd did...I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath...

Well to be fair I don't think you can find anyone from any other country (eg Spain, France, etc.) that has blown the whole thing wide open.

Oh and Millar would count as a Brit so no need to add in Scottish separately (until October perhaps ...)

 

[martinvickers]

In all honesty, I don't see Walsh or Kimmage in the same league as Landis in terms of involvement in doping. Someone like Kelly or Roche?

Kelly took a lot of low-octane, like most of his peers. Jury's out on more than that. Roche was with the EPO Italian Mob. My point is not the involvement in doping, though Kimmage did, a little, and admitted it. But Kimmage blew the doors off when no-one was doing it, when there was no sense of a gathering storm, when omerta was in fullest cry. Walsh followed the breadcrumb trail from the earliest armstrong events, at personal and professional cost, while the Texan still held the sport by the jewels.

Landis was post Festina, and to some extent post Puerto; there was a far more receptive audience to the notion that the peloton was riddled - as shown, I would argue, by how well his reputation has done since he came out, despite the crap he got up to before, and the significantly unpleasant views on doping he still seems to hold.

Like I said, I understand the distrust of Landis, but I've known people who did much worse, and I love them to death for who they became once they started being honest about it. I would also suggest that you take Lemond's change of heart after Floyd apologized as evidence that maybe he was sincere. As for his attitude for his doping, I don't really have that much of a problem with it in all honesty. I used more drugs than them all (actually, today is my 23 year anniversary being sober), and I don't apologize for what I did in terms of taking drugs. I made amends for what I did to people while I was using, but I don't regret a single thing I did.

Well, I congratulate you on your continuing sobriety for starters; not easy done. And I take your point on Lemond. But, while accepting I can't possibly know, I draw a distinction, when considering sport, between recreational abuse and cheating. I just do.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Well to be fair I don't think you can find anyone from any other country (eg Spain, France, etc.) that has blown the whole thing wide open.

Oh and Millar would count as a Brit so no need to add in Scottish separately (until October perhaps ...)

Don't disagree at all. I was responding to a stab at Americans (we deserve our share) from someone from Ireland. My experience with humanity is that we are almost all situationally honest at best, and I have a couple of merit badges in such things. I wasn't actually throwing stones, it just appeared that way for satirical purposes.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Well to be fair I don't think you can find anyone from any other country (eg Spain, France, etc.) that has blown the whole thing wide open.

Oh and Millar would count as a Brit so no need to add in Scottish separately (until October perhaps ...)

Jesús Manzano says hello.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Kelly took a lot of low-octane, like most of his peers. Jury's out on more than that. Roche was with the EPO Italian Mob. My point is not the involvement in doping, though Kimmage did, a little, and admitted it. But Kimmage blew the doors off when no-one was doing it, when there was no sense of a gathering storm, when omerta was in fullest cry. Walsh followed the breadcrumb trail from the earliest armstrong events, at personal and professional cost, while the Texan still held the sport by the jewels.

Landis was post Festina, and to some extent post Puerto; there was a far more receptive audience to the notion that the peloton was riddled - as shown, I would argue, by how well his reputation has done since he came out, despite the crap he got up to before, and the significantly unpleasant views on doping he still seems to hold.





Well, I congratulate you on your continuing sobriety for starters; not easy done. And I take your point on Lemond. But, while accepting I can't possibly know, I draw a distinction, when considering sport, between recreational abuse and cheating. I just do.

For me, it wasn't very recreational...it was pure he11.

But I do understand and respect your point. We all have to draw our distinctions, and we are all entitled to do so by our own standards.

I'd be interested in another forum knowing what you think of the (somewhat older) debate I saw regarding UK drug courts. I saw a video of Peter Hitchens and Russell Brand going at it, and it seemed an interesting debate.

 

[martinvickers]

Don't disagree at all. I was responding to a stab at Americans (we deserve our share) from someone from Ireland. My experience with humanity is that we are almost all situationally honest at best, and I have a couple of merit badges in such things. I wasn't actually throwing stones, it just appeared that way for satirical purposes.

Actually, the 'stab' was a subtle joke*. No irishman ever said that about americans. An american did, in Congress, and claimed it was an Irishman. Sometimes it's blamed on Churchill.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/11/exhaust-alternatives/

enjoy at your leisure.

* and yes, when it's so subtle you need a footnote, it's arguably barely a joke.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Actually, the 'stab' was a subtle joke*. No irishman ever said that about americans. An american did, in Congress, and claimed it was an Irishman. Sometimes it's blamed on Churchill.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/11/exhaust-alternatives/

enjoy at your leisure.

* and yes, when it's so subtle you need a footnote, it's arguably barely a joke.

If there wasn't truth in comedy, it wouldn't be funny.

 

[Justinr]

Jesús Manzano says hello.

I stand corrected - i'd forgotten about him, which is bad since i see his situation as worse than USP. He was experimented on by his docs without knowing the full truth.

 

[gooner]

None of us get why you defend and support the Sky farce, so I guess we're equal.

I never said I supported Sky doping and we aren't equal, I never said I was delighted with Horner doping.

I'll say it again but by no means a certainty on my part, I have strong doubts about Froome, less so with Wiggins with his transformation at Garmin and especially as it was pre-Geert Leinders introduction on his part. I read quite a bit about guys like Ellingworth in the past and it keeps being said he is vehemently against doping. John Herety who knows him well from the British Cycling scene, couldn't emphasise enough last summer on Eurosport for the Tour and said no way would Ellingworth be involved in with the team if they were up to no good. Other things go against them like pretending to have a ZTP and still hiring guys like Rogers and Barry and contemplating offering Neil Stephens a role in team in 2011. Leinders is a big one against them but I'm still not sure he was some mastermind behind their success. The success has continued even without him and if you are to run a doping program, hiring Leinders wouldn't be the way to do it successfully. You're building an obvious rod for your own back and I don't think Sky are that stupid.

As for Floyd. He isn't a "hero." He's just a dude that gave me a great morning in May one time. I still remember with glee reading those emails for the first time. When you've heard gut level honesty about a checkered past as many times as I have, you recognize when someone said to themselves "**** it, I'm telling it all." That is exactly what he did. I don't really care why he did it. I didn't get sober because I wanted to be a nice guy...most people don't understand, and they don't have to. It appears that like me, Floyd doesn't give a s**t about what you or others think of his life. Carry on in your world of make-believe.

Sorry now, I wasn't making judgement of you with your own personal history. It's totally unrelated to the context of what I was discussing with regards to solely on sporting perspective. I can judge Floyd freely in this aspect as I see fit and it doesn't matter if Floyd gives a **** about my opinion or not, it still doesn't make his previous past behaviour any better or acceptable.

 

[The Hitch]

Just for clarification, was it Ricco being the misogynist, or Wiggins?

Ricco. But let's just call it a non corporate speak personality and praise him for honesty like we do with wiggo.

Yeah, because floyd was always and ever a bastian of truthiness

The 'unidentified Irishman' got it about right, at least about floyd -



Was, indeed is, Wiggins a complete pr*ck? Abso-****ing - lutely. Do I find much of his bull deeply annoying, and sometimes troubling? Correctomondo.

But, little as you might like to hear it, I couldn't really give a fiddlers what he said about Landis, or why - it's way down on the list of things that trouble me about the Sky set up. I am far more concerned about Leinders and Yates and De Jongh. Because I'm not a Landis fanboy either.

Am I glad he spilled the beans - certainly - i want as many dopers hung out to dry as possible (including, I might add, should it be the case, Wiggins, Froome et al, I hope they fry for it). But does Landis himself get that much credit from me for it? Like **** he does.

Because Landis was a Class A unapologetic doping c**t, and the fact that after doing a nice defence fund moneygrab off the naive, and letting one of his 'boys' attempt to bully Lemond over sex abuse, he finally turned on Armstrong to try and salvage dome dinero, gains him very, very little with me.

Frankly, when it's doping c**t v doping c***t, I'm happy if both lose.

Edit : my apologies for the zealotry, there. I just have real problems stomaching Landis admiration.

You are acting as if Wiggins attacked Landis cos he was a doper. That's not what happened though.
Landis may have been all those things but what you ignore is that wiggos attack on him was not in defense of clean cycling or an attack on doping. It was in defense of Lance Armstrong a man who was all the bad things you say about Landis and worse. Wiggins attacked Landis for breaking omerta.

That is why we all see his attack on Landis as such a big deal. Because he was doing it in defense of lance. Everyone who was anti doping sided with landis and everyone who was pro omerta sided with lance.

It's pretty simple really. The man who won 7 tdfs doped and bullied anyone who spoke out for clean cycling gets called out by a former teammate as a doper. Wiggins, who knew lance doped takes his side anyway. And you claim this is irrelevant?

No one who took lances side in that could possibly be anti doping. Sky say Wiggins wouldn't cheat because he is anti doping. The Landis episode shows that that is absolutely not the case.

If it was Landiss doping he had a problem as you suggest, why did he say a month earlier that people shouldnt complain about Vinokourov and that he deserves to be back and winning? Why did he defend lance? Why does he ulogize Simpson and pantani and is paisans with basso, if his only beef with landis was that Landis doped. That was not his problem with landis at all or he wouldn't be praising all the other dopers.

He bad no problem whatsoever with dopers and to suggest that's why he called out Landis is disingenuous. He explicitly attacked Landis for speaking out against lance.

When you factor in that this extraordinary vote of support to a doper comes just after Wiggins transforms himself into a gt contender from someone who said they would probably never even bother with the tdf again, it becomes a real stretch to argue that this was someone who became the first person to ride with epo users, clean.

How does someone who has just been robbed off a tdf podium spot by a doper take the dopers side? They don't, they simply dont. If Wiggins really was the only cyclist in history to ride with dopers clean, he wouldn't have been so supportive of them. That he would defend the people who cheated him after all the hard work he allegedly put in makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[The Hitch]

I'll say it again but by no means a certainty on my part, I have strong doubts about Froome, less so with Wiggins with his transformation at Garmin

Oh, you didn't hear? Jv said that wiggos prep for that tour was not with Garmin at all. He did all of it with bc.

 

[Hugh Januss]

How does someone who has just been robbed off a tdf podium spot by a doper take the dopers side? They don't, they simply dont. If Wiggins really was the only cyclist in history to ride with dopers clean, he wouldn't have been so supportive of them. That he would defend the people who cheated him after all the hard work he allegedly put in makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Maybe he is genuinely so thick that he can't even work out that is what he is doing when he sticks up for his "friends" in the Peloton.

 

[The Hitch]

I see the most important point has conveniently been ignored.

Because Wiggins didn't know for a fact that what he told was the truth

You can discuss all you want about Landis's past but that Landis lied in the past is far less important when one considers that one knows for a FACT that Wiggins knew Landis was telling the truth on this occasion.

 

[BYOP88]

I never said I supported Sky doping and we aren't equal, I never said I was delighted with Horner doping.

I'll say it again but by no means a certainty on my part, I have strong doubts about Froome, less so with Wiggins with his transformation at Garmin and especially as it was pre-Geert Leinders introduction on his part. I read quite a bit about guys like Ellingworth in the past and it keeps being said he is vehemently against doping. John Herety who knows him well from the British Cycling scene, couldn't emphasise enough last summer on Eurosport for the Tour and said no way would Ellingworth be involved in with the team if they were up to no good. Other things go against them like pretending to have a ZTP and still hiring guys like Rogers and Barry and contemplating offering Neil Stephens a role in team in 2011. Leinders is a big one against them but I'm still not sure he was some mastermind behind their success. The success has continued even without him and if you are to run a doping program, hiring Leinders wouldn't be the way to do it successfully. You're building an obvious rod for your own back and I don't think Sky are that stupid.



Sorry now, I wasn't making judgement of you with your own personal history. It's totally unrelated to the context of what I was discussing with regards to solely on sporting perspective. I can judge Floyd freely in this aspect as I see fit and it doesn't matter if Floyd gives a **** about my opinion or not, it still doesn't make his previous past behaviour any better or acceptable.

Yet he loves Tom Simpson and didn't seem to have an issue in working with St. David of Millar.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Soooo Funny

I never said I supported Sky doping ..... I read quite a bit about guys like Ellingworth in the past and it keeps being said he is vehemently against doping. John Herety who knows him well from the British Cycling scene, couldn't emphasise enough last summer on Eurosport for the Tour and said no way would Ellingworth be involved in with the team if they were up to no good.......................

I enjoyed that one so much. You obviously don't know Herety.

My "moment" of the day - Herety being held up as the determinant and sage spokesman for honourable behaviour.

[John Hartson appears on BBC TV as a football pundit and sage. It amazes me what pea sized brains and zero memory capacity Sports TV producers have. Try asking Eyal Berkovic for an opinion on Hartson, or the photographer that captured the training ground incident. Bringing the game into disrepute was what he was charged with. Berkovic could not eat anything for two days. Assault and a jail term were more like what was required. Just cos they appear on the telly dosn't mean a jot.]

But I have to say, thank you so much for the image.

 

[bobbins]

Yet he loves Tom Simpson and didn't seem to have an issue in working with St. David of Millar.

Rods past will come back to him one day. It's a small world out there!