Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Zam_Olyas]

Not at all. I thought that some people might like to analyze
what they're saying (or more importantly what they're not
saying) and their body language for proof positive that
they are doping. And BTW congrats to Swifty on his
two stage wins in Poland. Not bad for a trackie!

With all due respect that is bs...the problem folks had was a trackie being a great gc rider not winning a sprint.

 

[Nocontest]

Actually I don't think that Sky is doing anything particularly spetcacular. i think what we are seeing is a bit of a changing of the guard. When you look at the stage that Rolland won the speed difference up the last climb was pretty much what you would expect.

I think that the issue is that Cadel is not on good form, Nibali is coming into form after being pretty average (actually way below average) prior to the tour, VDB is riding well but was unfortunate to puncture just prior to the climb in week one. I think that if Contador was riding we would be seeing him in the lead not Wiggins.

On another note, I feel that Liquigas have a 'cunning plan' essentially Nibali's support riders have been given the days off as evidenced today with Basso etc cruising in. I am predicting we will see them putting a heap of pressure on Sky in the Pyrenees as they will be relatively fresh.

 

[Nocontest]

With all due respect that is bs...the problem folks had was a trackie being a great gc rider not winning a sprint.

Interesting, I remember a guy back in the 70's by the name of Eddie who was a pretty handy track rider and even set an hour record. I think from memory he went on to do quite well in Le Tour and one or two other races and even won a few sprints....maybe folks had a problem with him too.

 

[sniper]

Actually I don't think that Sky is doing anything particularly spetcacular. i think what we are seeing is a bit of a changing of the guard. When you look at the stage that Rolland won the speed difference up the last climb was pretty much what you would expect.

I think that the issue is that Cadel is not on good form, Nibali is coming into form after being pretty average (actually way below average) prior to the tour, VDB is riding well but was unfortunate to puncture just prior to the climb in week one. I think that if Contador was riding we would be seeing him in the lead not Wiggins.

On another note, I feel that Liquigas have a 'cunning plan' essentially Nibali's support riders have been given the days off as evidenced today with Basso etc cruising in. I am predicting we will see them putting a heap of pressure on Sky in the Pyrenees as they will be relatively fresh.

you posted in the wrong subforum.

 

[Nocontest]

Innocent until proven guilty? Sorry but that doesn't work in pro cycling and you know it. Or maybe you don't? Maybe you think pro cycling's like a bunch of lads out on an evening chain gang? Well it aint, there's a lot of money involved. It's a business.

Conspiracy theory? You're using the phrase disparagingly. This isn't the moon landing being faked we're talking about. We're talking about the possibility of an actual conspiracy. Refer to the real life conspiracy being prosecuted by USADA going back to 2010. That's not ancient history is it?

There's a body of circumstantial evidence that is hard to ignore. All documented here, if you would care to search for it. No one's accusing Brad because he has shifty eyes or some such.

To satisfy The Clinic, Brad can publish his figures (as he has advocated in the past) and they can be discussed with an independent expert. Which I think would be in line with Sky's 'zero tolerance to doping' approach and Brad's support for transparency in the peloton.

At the end of the day why should Brad give a toss about a dozen guys on a website? I know I wouldn't. actually all he need to do is what he is doing now, adhering to the testing protocols set out by the various governing authorities.

 

[Benotti69]

Actually I don't think that Sky is doing anything particularly spetcacular. i think what we are seeing is a bit of a changing of the guard. When you look at the stage that Rolland won the speed difference up the last climb was pretty much what you would expect.

I think that the issue is that Cadel is not on good form, Nibali is coming into form after being pretty average (actually way below average) prior to the tour, VDB is riding well but was unfortunate to puncture just prior to the climb in week one. I think that if Contador was riding we would be seeing him in the lead not Wiggins.

On another note, I feel that Liquigas have a 'cunning plan' essentially Nibali's support riders have been given the days off as evidenced today with Basso etc cruising in. I am predicting we will see them putting a heap of pressure on Sky in the Pyrenees as they will be relatively fresh.

When you at what Rolland did to win the stage and then the next day he was hanging off the back very early for his efforts, that is a performance we can believe in. But if we look at Sky's efforts everyday that is not believable.

That people keep saying that the other GC contenders are not in form is ridiculous. This is the GC contenders whole raison d'etre for the season. Of course they are gonna be in peak or near as peak form as possible.

I think what we are seeing is teams having to relearn their doping(micro or whatever it is)while sky have perfected theirs.

Why is it like this? I dont know and is probably a good to discuss in a seperate thread to discuss.

 

[Nocontest]

you posted in the wrong subforum.

I'm economising on space

 

[Nocontest]

When you at what Rolland did to win the stage and then the next day he was hanging off the back very early for his efforts, that is a performance we can believe in. But if we look at Sky's efforts everyday that is not believable.

That people keep saying that the other GC contenders are not in form is ridiculous. This is the GC contenders whole raison d'etre for the season. Of course they are gonna be in peak or near as peak form as possible.

I think what we are seeing is teams having to relearn their doping(micro or whatever it is)while sky have perfected theirs.

Why is it like this? I dont know and is probably a good to discuss in a seperate thread to discuss.

If we see Sky continuing to do what they have been doing this week I will be concerned but I think LG will take control in the Pyrenees.

 

[Climeon]

At the end of the day why should Brad give a toss about a dozen guys on a website? I know I wouldn't. actually all he need to do is what he is doing now, adhering to the testing protocols set out by the various governing authorities.

Why do you think it's a dozen guys on the website? Right now there are 500 people exactly online, which means that they're are thousands of guys who go on the website, not 12

 

[sniper]

If we see Sky continuing to do what they have been doing this week I will be concerned but I think LG will take control in the Pyrenees.

if you don't care about clean cycling, IMO you're in the wrong subforum.
if you are deliberately trying to trivialize the indications that sky is doping, you have an agenda (a.k.a. trolling).
if you really believe they aren't doping, you're wearing blinders.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Actually I don't think that Sky is doing anything particularly spetcacular. i think what we are seeing is a bit of a changing of the guard. When you look at the stage that Rolland won the speed difference up the last climb was pretty much what you would expect.

I think that the issue is that Cadel is not on good form, Nibali is coming into form after being pretty average (actually way below average) prior to the tour, VDB is riding well but was unfortunate to puncture just prior to the climb in week one. I think that if Contador was riding we would be seeing him in the lead not Wiggins.

The problem is, how long is it before that can no longer be used as an excuse? Everybody was out of form in March, out of form in April, out of form in June, and now out of form in July. At some point, somebody not riding for Team Sky has to come into some form, surely, right?

Interesting, I remember a guy back in the 70's by the name of Eddie who was a pretty handy track rider and even set an hour record. I think from memory he went on to do quite well in Le Tour and one or two other races and even won a few sprints....maybe folks had a problem with him too.

Well, considering that he tested positive on at least three occasions in his career, if the Clinic had been around then, Eddy would have been front and centre of most debates.

 

[Fergoose]

Interesting to note that the allegedly juiced up Richie Porte, member of the mighty, all conquering Sky Team couldn’t make it over the Cat 3 yesterday to help out his teammates. Elite climbers like EBH & Griepel however did manage to make it back to the front of the pack (although Sky's Cavendish also failed).

Also an interview here where Nibali speaks about his downhill attack where he joined up with Sagan and was pulled back by Porte (Stage 10?). Nibali confirms that working with Sagan he got a 50 second gap. However, once Sagan had to give up, Nibali took his foot right off the gas, electing to fight another day.

I also noted that on yesterdays stage that Mr Zero EBH managed to whittle down the peloton to 30 odd riders again – indicating that such an effort is not superhuman.

I’m getting more comfortable with Porte’s performances with each day that passes. Other than a decent turn on Stage 7 (which I found credible) I'm struggling to remember anything he has done that has been particularly impressive.

 

[Square-pedaller]

At the end of the day why should Brad give a toss about a dozen guys on a website? I know I wouldn't. actually all he need to do is what he is doing now, adhering to the testing protocols set out by the various governing authorities.

Technically, you're right. All Wiggins needs to do is meet the testing protocols.

The only reason that he should be trying to do more than that is if what people think of him is going to affect his success:

He has already shown that doping guess gets under his skin and is a distraction. If he is clean, then there are things that he can do in terms of transparency that will at least suggest that he has nothing to hide. However various things - like the recommendation from the team docto (Leinders?) not to put his biopassport data on the web - are reinforcing the perception that they are hiding something. As Climeon points out, there may be a small number of people posting on here, but this thread has been viewed more than a quarter of a million times. And the people who lurk rather than post are the people who are not already set in their views, but are more likely to be trying to weigh up the arguemnts.

Given Armstrong's current situation, it's not a good a time to try and tough it out. You have to be as hard as Armstrong and Armstrong is one hard nut. I don't think Wiggins is, and he needs to play the game differently.

 

[will10]

Interesting to note that the allegedly juiced up Richie Porte, member of the mighty, all conquering Sky Team couldn’t make it over the Cat 3 yesterday to help out his teammates. Elite climbers like EBH & Griepel however did manage to make it back to the front of the pack (although Sky's Cavendish also failed).

Also an interview here where Nibali speaks about his downhill attack where he joined up with Sagan and was pulled back by Porte (Stage 10?). Nibali confirms that working with Sagan he got a 50 second gap. However, once Sagan had to give up, Nibali took his foot right off the gas, electing to fight another day.

I also noted that on yesterdays stage that Mr Zero EBH managed to whittle down the peloton to 30 odd riders again – indicating that such an effort is not superhuman.

I’m getting more comfortable with Porte’s performances with each day that passes. Other than a decent turn on Stage 7 (which I found credible) I'm struggling to remember anything he has done that has been particularly impressive.

Porte's performance on a flat stage is pretty unimportant. But when he starts climbing as one of the top 8 climbers in the race, dropping guys who put minutes into him on every mountain stage in the Giro '10, then alarm bells start to ring.

 

[Benotti69]

Interesting to note that the allegedly juiced up Richie Porte, member of the mighty, all conquering Sky Team couldn’t make it over the Cat 3 yesterday to help out his teammates. Elite climbers like EBH & Griepel however did manage to make it back to the front of the pack (although Sky's Cavendish also failed).

Also an interview here where Nibali speaks about his downhill attack where he joined up with Sagan and was pulled back by Porte (Stage 10?). Nibali confirms that working with Sagan he got a 50 second gap. However, once Sagan had to give up, Nibali took his foot right off the gas, electing to fight another day.

I also noted that on yesterdays stage that Mr Zero EBH managed to whittle down the peloton to 30 odd riders again – indicating that such an effort is not superhuman.

I’m getting more comfortable with Porte’s performances with each day that passes. Other than a decent turn on Stage 7 (which I found credible) I'm struggling to remember anything he has done that has been particularly impressive.

I watched that Nibali attack and he didn't soft pedal after Sagan gave up. He, maybe, gave up when the time gaps came down to 20secs!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sky made a rod for their own backs by making a bunch of promises they couldn't keep when they started out - the commitment to nobody who's been involved in doping ever (proved nigh on impossible when trying to source an experienced DS), and no doctors who have come from cycling (before hiring Leinders) - but the main one was the commitment to transparency.

Many teams do not commit to transparency, and do not get as much stick for not showing it as Team Sky do. Because Team Sky made that commitment, them not being prepared to share their data is seen as reneging on that commitment. And given that, as their performances become ever more dominant, being transparent and sharing data would go a long way to assuage the doubts that the fans have (and Wiggins has shown that he is upset that the fans have), declining to do so only strengthens the implication that there is something to hide.

They must recognise that fans will have doubts about a team that dominates in such a fashion. And they are clearly upset that the fans have those doubts, as we saw from Wiggins' outburst last week. But unless they actually start to revive that commitment to transparency that they talked about before, then what they're doing is saying "hi, we're clean" and just EXPECTING us to hang on their every word unquestioningly, and simply saying "you're making it hard for us to believe you" is an affront - but they refuse to show us why.

Now, I'm sure that they feel that if they posted the biopassport data now, most people's opinion is already formed one way or the other, and a clean passport would contain some information that cynics would overstate and overhype to suggest meant doping, while a dirty-looking passport would be carefully explained away by a variety of theories by some. But if you make the commitment to transparency, you have to expect that one day the fans will come knocking asking you for that information, and what's a better time to question than a time when they're dominating the biggest race of the year?

It's like Lance in 2009. He committed to showing his data. He showed his data after being pressured into it, got wind of some feedback on it he didn't like, and took it back down again. If you're not prepared to hear feedback you don't like, don't publicise your figures. But if you're not prepared to publicise your figures, then don't make a commitment to transparency.

 

[Nocontest]

The problem is, how long is it before that can no longer be used as an excuse? Everybody was out of form in March, out of form in April, out of form in June, and now out of form in July. At some point, somebody not riding for Team Sky has to come into some form, surely, right?

Well, considering that he tested positive on at least three occasions in his career, if the Clinic had been around then, Eddy would have been front and centre of most debates.

But they are coming into form, Nibali is coming into good form and I think we will evidence of that see that this week. VDB has been in really good form and Zubeldia is in good form. Also I still say that if they have such a great doping programme why broadcast it to the world by being so blatantly dominant when it would be easy to mask by alternating their riders throughout the tour.

Good point re Eddie but my reference was against the suggestion that being a good track rider disqualifies you from making a transition to a GC rider.

 

[hrotha]

Telling some of your domestiques to soft pedal when you aren't expecting any difficulties is nothing new. Sky was never going to need more than what they had in the front group, so they could tell the rest of the team to save themselves for harder stages. Remember Contador's domestiques regularly losing 2-5 minutes in every flat stage? Was that because they weren't strong?

 

[Nocontest]

if you don't care about clean cycling, IMO you're in the wrong subforum.
if you are deliberately trying to trivialize the indications that sky is doping, you have an agenda (a.k.a. trolling).
if you really believe they aren't doping, you're wearing blinders.

Wow thats a lot of 'if's' and none of them have any relevance to my posts and in particular the section you quote.

I am also bemused why you find the need to resort to a attack people who don't agree with everything that you say.

As I said in the post that you quote, if Sky is still totally dominant throughout this week I will be concerned. Until then I will reserve my judgement either way. Granted, you may have a lot of suspicion but that does not equate to guilt. At the end of the week I may share your opinion or not.

 

[Benotti69]

But they are coming into form, Nibali is coming into good form and I think we will evidence of that see that this week. VDB has been in really good form and Zubeldia is in good form. Also I still say that if they have such a great doping programme why broadcast it to the world by being so blatantly dominant when it would be easy to mask by alternating their riders throughout the tour.

Good point re Eddie but my reference was against the suggestion that being a good track rider disqualifies you from making a transition to a GC rider.

Sky have shelled all the GC contenders with the exception of Nibali!

Where is Menchov, Evans, VDB? All well of the pace.

Coming into form. No one comes into form for the 3rd week. You may try to peek for the 3rd week but that is hard after racing for 2 weeks. The 3rd week is generally about damage limitation and hoping to find a day when your legs feel less pain than the others.

As for Eddie, i would be very slow to compare Wiggins to Merckx. Different era. Eddie multiple Monument and GT winner who road track. Eddie did track in the winter like many of that era, not came from track to road!

 

[Nocontest]

Telling some of your domestiques to soft pedal when you aren't expecting any difficulties is nothing new. Sky was never going to need more than what they had in the front group, so they could tell the rest of the team to save themselves for harder stages. Remember Contador's domestiques regularly losing 2-5 minutes in every flat stage? Was that because they weren't strong?

LG is doing it really well over this week and without the pressure of defending the jersey. Watching Basso etc coming over the line today , they looked to have been out on a Sunday bunch ride. Wiggo is going to feel the heat over the next few days.

 

[Nocontest]

Sky have shelled all the GC contenders with the exception of Nibali!

Where is Menchov, Evans, VDB? All well of the pace.

Coming into form. No one comes into form for the 3rd week. You may try to peek for the 3rd week but that is hard after racing for 2 weeks. The 3rd week is generally about damage limitation and hoping to find a day when your legs feel less pain than the others.

As for Eddie, i would be very slow to compare Wiggins to Merckx. Different era. Eddie multiple Monument and GT winner who road track. Eddie did track in the winter like many of that era, not came from track to road!

Well Menchov is miles of the pace...anyones pace. Evans is struggling but he has had bad days in the past and TJ expressed real surprise when he dropped off the back on the final climb. Van Garderen had no problems keeping up did he? and nor did VDB or Nibali which suggests to me Cadel was having an off day. VDB is only off the pace because of a puncture at the wrong time, he has looked pretty comfortable on all the climbs and will never be up with Wiggo in the TT's.

You are wrong about the peaking to the extent that Nibali himself has said that he gets stronger as the Tour progresses...in relation to other contenders not in terms of absolute form. We will see if that is the case over the next few days but I think his team are relatively fresh.

 

[Benotti69]

Well Menchov is miles of the pace...anyones pace. Evans is struggling but he has had bad days in the past and TJ expressed real surprise when he dropped off the back on the final climb. Van Garderen had no problems keeping up did he? and nor did VDB or Nibali which suggests to me Cadel was having an off day. VDB is only off the pace because of a puncture at the wrong time, he has looked pretty comfortable on all the climbs and will never be up with Wiggo in the TT's.

You are wrong about the peaking to the extent that Nibali himself has said that he gets stronger as the Tour progresses...in relation to other contenders not in terms of absolute form. We will see if that is the case over the next few days but I think his team are relatively fresh.

Why would Nibali get stronger? Does he suffer less than others or has he planned some 'margianl gains' for the 3rd week?

VDB is not threat as he cant TT well enough to stay in contention. He had to attack in the mountains. He has not made any dents into Sky's power.

Evans has a bad day but can usually manage that well and limit that damage as we saw.


Liqui's team at this TdF are not waiting to do anything. They cant do anything.

 

[Cerberus]

But they are coming into form, Nibali is coming into good form and I think we will evidence of that see that this week. VDB has been in really good form and Zubeldia is in good form. Also I still say that if they have such a great doping programme why broadcast it to the world by being so blatantly dominant when it would be easy to mask by alternating their riders throughout the tour.

Good point re Eddie but my reference was against the suggestion that being a good track rider disqualifies you from making a transition to a GC rider.

I don't recall anyone making that claim. if Wiggins had always been good at both GC and track then sure that would have been one thing, but Wiggins for most of his career has been horrible at GC. The claim I'm making is that having always been good at track doesn't explain his dramatic improvement in GC, both climping and TT. Eddie Merkx, was never bad at GC (or anything cycling related), he finished 9th in his first GT (the Giro) and won his first Tour.

 

[yourwelcome]

Wiggo is going to feel the heat over the next few days.

Plenty of hydration will sort him out. That and his incredible pedigree and work ethic.