Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Cerberus]

I don't think anyone is saying that it is nailed on that a pursuiter will necessarily make a good stage racer, but equally to say that a pursuiter can't make a good stage racer (and is therefore a sure sign of a doper) is equally ridiculous.

My point is not that he cannot do well because he was good at track. My point its that the fact that he was provably bad in GC makes his likely win very suspicious, and the fact that he was good on track does not invalidate this.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Thomas wore the White jersey for a period on either 2010 or 2011. Hasn't he said that he wants to concentrate on the road after the Olympics.

Actually BOTH 2010 and 2011. He lost in it 2011 waiting to see if Brad would rejoin.

And yes, he is planning on a a road transition post Olympics. Not sure if he will focus back on the track for 2016, but I doubt it, there is a lot of young track talent coming through.

 

[hrotha]

Thomas has shown way more climbing potential than Wiggo early in his career. If he keeps improving you could compare him to Boardman, who might have made a good GT rider in different times.

 

[Sigmund]

You've misunderstood me, I said they did well in their first GTs, not that their first GTs was at a young age. Also top 10 is very different from winning.

My comments was not adressed at you in particular, from reading some of this thread I got the impression that quite a few people have stated that improvement late in a career does not happen and/or no one comes from nowhere and then place well.

I would imagine quite a few people did poorly in their firat GTS and then improved.

One example would be Roger Walkoviak. He Was 56th in his first TdF and then did not enter before being 47th in his scond TdF, he had time for another no-show and a DNF before winning.

 

[Cerberus]

My comments was not adressed at you in particular, from feading some of thisnthread I got the impression that quite a few people have stated that improvement late in a career dos not happen and/or no one comes from nowhere and then place well.

I would imagine quite a few people did poorly in their firat GTS and then improved.

One exampl would be Roger Walkoviak. He Was 56th in his first TdF and then did not enter before being 47th in his scond TdF, hi had time for another no-show and a DNF before winning.

He got 18 minutes in a breakaway. Also he's not one example, he's the example (eta: among post-WW2 pre-EPo Tour winners at least), and not relevant because of the breakaway time.

 

[red_death]

My point its that the fact that he was provably bad in GC makes his likely win very suspicious, and the fact that he was good on track does not invalidate this.

Why? Pre-2009 the road was not his primary aim. Once his focus changed then so did his results. The reality is that he just hasn't ridden that many GTs (10 - of which 2 he withdrew) and of the 6 post 2008 he has managed a 3rd and 4th place.

 

[_frost]

Why is Wiggins the pioneer then? Thomas has gone quicker than Wiggins (I think?) over 4km, when will he become a stage racer?

Who of Phinney/Sergent/Bobridge/Dennis/Hepburn will win a Grand Tour?

To me, the lack of evidence thus far makes the 4km = stage racer link rather weak. As things stand, Wiggins is a top stage racer because of his own unique qualities, not those inherent in a champion pursuiter. Maybe things will look different ten years down the track.

I didn't say that a good pursuiter equals to stage racer just that to excel in pursuit requires very high VO2Max that is important (but definitely not the only) maker of a stage racer.

Maybe Thomas hasn't yet reached his potential (eg. due to training concentration on track training or young age) or maybe he just lacks some other important characteristics.

 

[Cerberus]

Why? Pre-2009 the road was not his primary aim. Once his focus changed then so did his results. The reality is that he just hasn't ridden that many GTs (10 - of which 2 he withdrew) and of the 6 post 2008 he has managed a 3rd and 4th place.

Because, pre-epo, no improvements anywhere near that level were seen - ever. Blood doping can provably supply that level of improvement. Nothing else has been shown to provide a comparable boost. So when I see such a performance jump I naturally consider the likelihood that the one thing provably able to provide such a performance jump might in fact be responsible. Also let's not forget that Wiggins blood values have been somewhat suspicious.

 

[Ferminal]

I don't think anyone is saying that it is nailed on that a pursuiter will necessarily make a good stage racer, but equally to say that a pursuiter can't make a good stage racer (and is therefore a sure sign of a doper) is equally ridiculous.

Well we have Boardman and McGee there, who achieved a few podiums and top10s respectively in significant stage races. So yes, the evidence does not suggest that pursuiters cannot or will not be stage racers. But Wiggins is not the same, his stage race achievements are leagues apart - and it's some other factor, not just because he did 4000m in 4'15".

 

[Darryl Webster]

Regards riders who have gone from no were to top dog:
Miguel Endurain jumps out as a modern example. Just posting for information.
As I understand things and happy to corrected if wrong past 11, 12 days of a GT, blood values should show a marked drop in values as exhaustion sets in. IV,s are now banned, Sky claim a no needles policy and I struggle to believe dietary supplements could hold back the drop in values. So, If I've, got this right, comparing blood values at the end of a GT to those at the start would seem the obvious way to detect doping or at the very least use of IV infusion?

1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th
1991: 1st
1992: 1st
1993: 1st
1994: 1st
1995: 1st
1996: 11th

 

[The Real GFY]

Wiggins will be a one-off grand tour winner. He's already shown his vulnerability. An HC climb finish would have popped him.

One thing I find a bit odd with this tour is that there is not one HC MTF. Just one MTF on an HC climb would make the race a heck of a lot more interesting.

 

[thehog]

One thing I find a bit odd with this tour is that there is not one HC MTF. Just one MTF on an HC climb would make the race a heck of a lot more interesting.

It’s like Sky actually designed the course themselves…. oh wait they probably did

 

[hrotha]

Regards riders who have gone from no were to top dog:
Miguel Endurain jumps out as a modern example. Just posting for information.
As I understand things and happy to corrected if wrong past 11, 12 days of a GT, blood values should show a marked drop in values as exhaustion sets in. IV,s are now banned, Sky claim a no needles policy and I struggle to believe dietary supplements could hold back the drop in values. So, If I've, got this right, comparing blood values at the end of a GT to those at the start would seem the obvious way to detect doping or at the very least use of IV infusion?

1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th
1991: 1st
1992: 1st
1993: 1st
1994: 1st
1995: 1st
1996: 11th

Miguel Indurain wasn't clean. And still, early in his career he showed way more climbing pedigree than Wiggins. Look up his palmares.

 

[Darryl Webster]

It’s like Sky actually designed the course themselves…. oh wait they probably did

PMSL Hog..was just having the same thought. Money talks and Sky ( the business) have very deep pockets...there are many vested interest reasons to suspect influence on the route...and those with a good knowledge of the sport will remember Francesco Moser.s Giro win on a course tailor made for him...not to mention a little bit of help from a helicopter
!..I kid not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkbMuc_W5g

 

[thehog]

PMSL Hog..was just having the same thought. Money talks and Sky ( the business) have very deep pockets...there are many vested interest reasons to suspect influence on the route...and those with a good knowledge of the sport will remember Francesco Moser.s Giro win on a course tailor made for him...not to mention a little bit of help from a helicopter
!..I kid not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkbMuc_W5g

Well its well known that Armstrong spoke to ASO before the 09 route was drawn out. The 2009 looks tough compared to this year but there was a distinct lack of climbing in the 09event also. Contador was superiorly stronger than Armstrong as was Andy Shleck but course design kept the GC tight for the first 2 weeks.

I don’t like when they design a course to fit a certain rider. Open up the course and let the talent selects who wins.

Imagine this year with more MTFs. That would mean Wiggins under more pressure and more opportunity for the likes of VDB and Nibili. Criminal that we weren’t given that race. Froome would have to decide between staying with his team-mate or following the attacks. Instead we’ve had one team ride on the front in the entire Tour.

 

[function]

Hahaha, digging up results from 50-70 years ago to explain Wiggins.

Because picking earlier results, it's inevitable someone will attribute the performance to oxygen vector doping, e.g. what you did just above with Indurain. See the problem?

 

[_frost]

Well we have Boardman and McGee there, who achieved a few podiums and top10s respectively in significant stage races. So yes, the evidence does not suggest that pursuiters cannot or will not be stage racers. But Wiggins is not the same, his stage race achievements are leagues apart - and it's some other factor, not just because he did 4000m in 4'15".

Definately. Just the factor that is affected by EPO/blood doping has been there all the way since the track days (by what ever means).

 

[Darryl Webster]

Miguel Indurain wasn't clean. And still, early in his career he showed way more climbing pedigree than Wiggins. Look up his palmares.

Were did I suggest he was clean?..I didn't. No one and I mean no one at the top of the game of pro cycling gets a pass from me. I do tend to think Lemond and Hampsten are strong candidates amongst GT winners but I,m afraid I wouldn't be happy to put any bets.
..and I aint convinced BC are the saints they have claimed to be right back to Chris Boardman. ..to many snippets of info have reached my ears over the years and personal knowledge of some back room staff and riders gives me every reason to be extremely cynical.

 

[norwegian]

It’s like Sky actually designed the course themselves…. oh wait they probably did

Go back to your dungeon, Gollum. Contrary to your "cool" avatar and name, you are most probably an bitter looser trying to be something you are not. Just filling the forum with hatred. Come forward and show your face.

 

[andy1234]

Were did I suggest he was clean?..I didn't. No one and I mean no one at the top of the game of pro cycling gets a pass from me. I do tend to think Lemond and Hampsten are strong candidates amongst GT winners but I,m afraid I wouldn't be happy to put any bets.
..and I aint convinced BC are the saints they have claimed to be right back to Chris Boardman. ..to many snippets of info have reached my ears over the years and personal knowledge of some back room staff and riders gives me every reason to be extremely cynical.

Pipe down Darryl, or start naming names.
I personally have called you out on this before, and you went quiet
Care to back up some of your "snippets "?
By the way, I have heard many rumours about you over the years
Just snippets mind....

 

[taiwan]

Go back to your dungeon, Gollum. Contrary to your "cool" avatar and name, you are most probably an bitter looser trying to be something you are not. Just filling the forum with hatred. Come forward and show your face.

To be fair I don't think many would disagree that this year's route is ideally suited to Wiggins. Or maybe ASO had never heard of him when they published it

 

[thehog]

Go back to your dungeon, Gollum. Contrary to your "cool" avatar and name, you are most probably an bitter looser trying to be something you are not. Just filling the forum with hatred. Come forward and show your face.

That would be "loser" not "looser" smarty pants

 

[norwegian]

That would be "loser" not "looser" smarty pants

That would make you "The Winner", then. Good for you!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Regards riders who have gone from no were to top dog:
Miguel Endurain jumps out as a modern example. Just posting for information.
As I understand things and happy to corrected if wrong past 11, 12 days of a GT, blood values should show a marked drop in values as exhaustion sets in. IV,s are now banned, Sky claim a no needles policy and I struggle to believe dietary supplements could hold back the drop in values. So, If I've, got this right, comparing blood values at the end of a GT to those at the start would seem the obvious way to detect doping or at the very least use of IV infusion?

1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th
1991: 1st
1992: 1st
1993: 1st
1994: 1st
1995: 1st
1996: 11th

This is fair (though as hrotha points out, his early-career palmarès shows much more climbing potential than Wiggins'), however, the discussion was originally about how the EPO era had changed things so that riders were transforming, rather than being guys who had shown some good results in their first few GTs (one "Pereiro-clone" exception was made for Walkowiak). The debate got a bit murkier afterwards, which may have confused things, but the idea was about trying to find "pre-EPO" riders who had not shown GT potential suddenly becoming great GT riders like Wiggins has; Miguelón, by dominating the early 90s, can't really be considered "pre-EPO".

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Because, pre-epo, no improvements anywhere near that level were seen - ever. Blood doping can provably supply that level of improvement. Nothing else has been shown to provide a comparable boost. So when I see such a performance jump I naturally consider the likelihood that the one thing provably able to provide such a performance jump might in fact be responsible. Also let's not forget that Wiggins blood values have been somewhat suspicious.

Yup. And since the dawn of the EPO era, there have been no shortages of "reasons" as to why previous non-contenders have become champions. All of which sound like Hulk Hogan espousing the virtue of doing your training, saying your prayers, and eating your vitamins.

And for me, it's too hard to ignore the simplest answer.