Nope. That would not explain how he gained power while losing weight.TailWindHome said:Careful management of calories in versus calories out.
Nope. That would not explain how he gained power while losing weight.TailWindHome said:Careful management of calories in versus calories out.
Why feed any of them, del, Parky, Spud............The Hitch said:Why are you feeding him?
But Bobbins does? How do you know it is not some guy just winding Bobbins up to see what he will post for a laugh.sniper said:As DW says, nobody has claimed Garmin are proactively doping their riders.
We all know Garmin have an internal testing program which is sold as an antidoping program.
We also know from Prentice's leaked email a few years ago that even to the riders and staff members it is sold as an antidoping program.
So no surprise the guys you spoke to say that.
You really think Ryder won that Giro clean and Wiggo got that 4th place clean?
Or could it be that your insider contacts don't know the full story?
Short debate thenThe Hitch said:Nope. That would not explain how he gained power while losing weight.
Why wouldn't it? (if this is in a post from a few years back I'm happy for you to point me to it, I had a quick look but couldn't find anything).The Hitch said:Nope. That would not explain how he gained power while losing weight.
Actually - why not start a sticky with evidence (or whatever you want to call it) against Sky. Would that work? After all this thread is far too long to find anything meaningful in - and it might go someway to alleviating tensions between long term members and others.Benotti69 said:Why feed any of them, del, Parky, Spud............
Well, I don't see 30,000 long posts about any other team or DS at all on the first or even second page of the Clinic, so clearly these 'good contacts inside the sport' only have contacts as far as Sky. Seems rather one-dimensional type of relationship with cycling, hence I suspect they blow hot air!Benotti69 said:No it isnt and claiming this is stupid.
Plenty post in the clinic that have good contacts inside the sport.
If it was all hot air it would have dissipated long ago. It hasnt.
Most in the clinic are not blind to the sports culture of doping. That has not changed no matter how much JV and Brailsfod love to claim it has. Those posters who claim things have changed cannot point to anything that would've changed this culture. Ferrari and Astana's recent outing proves the sport has not changed. That JV and Brailsford claim it shows they are hiding the obvious truth.
please don't make stuff up.............stating that something may be dismissedsniper said:yes, you may dismiss it as hearsay.
just stop telling me and others to dismiss it as well.
At the risk of taking this off-topic to Garmin. JV is the GM, all the people who do the internal testing, work with the riders on a regular basis etc report to JV so I am sure he has faith in what they report to him. I am sure it is not based purely on internal testing either. Read any number of the doping confessions and behavioural patterns are a clear indicator as well.Dear Wiggo said:I'll accept the team are not doping their riders - but I was under the impression even the most jaded disbeliever held a similar opinion.
What I can't accept is that JV knows for eg Von Hoff is clean, when he saw him 3 times in 2 years. Extrapolate that out to every rider. Mirror confidence in ABP to the internal testing.
I do not accept Ryder won the Giro clean.
can we just get some things straight?pmcg76 said:But Bobbins does? How do you know it is not some guy just winding Bobbins up to see what he will post for a laugh.
I like this claim of 'we know'. We know jack, you can say you believe but you definitely do not 'know'. Nobody on an internet forum 'knows' unless they are directly involved.
This is also laughable saying nobody ever claimed that Garmin have a proactive doping policy.
How many times has it been claimed on here that Girona is a doping hub, thus the reason so many Garmin riders are based there so easier to run a team programme? How many times have you mentioned Girona alone? To now turn around and claim otherwise is just BS.
My insiders have the same view on Ryder winning the Giro as a lot of people, including myself. It is on the very limits of what they believe is possible for a clean rider but wouldn't be surprised if he were doping either.
Lets put it like this, in a race with all the top dogs on top form, Ryder would be somewhere between 10-20 on GC imo. Considering Moncoutie finished 12th at the Tour in 2002 and has a clean rep, then yes its plausible. There are other factors than doping at play also.
two strawmen in one sentence. chapeau.pmcg76 said:...
Maybe they all lie to him or maybe you feel there is a huge conspiracy within his team that he does not know about.
Lets see, one source says SKY had a backdated TUE/another sources says there is no doping at Garmin. They are both equally plausible. They are both relying on second hand information that might or might not be true. There is no difference.sniper said:can we just get some things straight?
1. so you admit your sources cannot know if garmin riders are doping? (my answer: no they can't)
2. Sky's backdated TUE strikes you as plausible? (my answer: yes it does)
To be fair, UKAD allow "retroactive" TUEs to be applied. So it's entirely likely that it occurred. Depends what the substances were and the motivation behind the action.pmcg76 said:Lets see, one source says SKY had a backdated TUE/another sources says there is no doping at Garmin. They are both equally plausible. They are both relying on second hand information that might or might not be true. There is no difference.
Has Bobbins seen a backdated TUE for SKY?
Plus you really need to learn what a strawman is.
thanks, now that's clearly stating your opinion, although it strikes me as a particulrly ill informed opinion, which is odd for someone so knowledgeable on the history of cycling like you.pmcg76 said:Lets see, one source says SKY had a backdated TUE/another sources says there is no doping at Garmin. They are both equally plausible. They are both relying on second hand information that might or might not be true. There is no difference.
Has Bobbins seen a backdated TUE for SKY?
Plus you really need to learn what a strawman is.
The UCI allow retroactive TUEs as well (section 4.3 of the TUE guidelines) and so do every other sports governing body.thehog said:To be fair, UKAD allow "retroactive" TUEs to be applied. So it's entirely likely that it occurred. Depends what the substances were and the motivation behind the action.
but not making stuff up like yourselfsniper said:two strawmen in one sentence. chapeau.
Damn. I said I wouldn't do this but here I am. I'll post the whole section for clarity, from the WADA guidelines. Yes, I'm aware it's the most recent version but I'm pretty sure it has been fairly standard since well before Sky were a team:thehog said:To be fair, UKAD allow "retroactive" TUEs to be applied. So it's entirely likely that it occurred. Depends what the substances were and the motivation behind the action.
Truethehog said:To be fair, UKAD allow "retroactive" TUEs to be applied. So it's entirely likely that it occurred. Depends what the substances were and the motivation behind the action.
that's true. but go back to bobbins post and you'll see it was merely a reply to an interview where Sir Dave was once again playing holier than the pope explicitly suggesting Sky are frontrunners in the fight against doping and an example for other teams.Parker said:The UCI allow retroactive TUEs as well (section 4.3 of the TUE guidelines) and so do every other sports governing body.
That's why unless bobbins reveals a little more of the circumstances it's not really incriminating. The phrase 'backdated TUE' with no context is designed to invite parallels to Armstrong.
Exaclty. Funny to see the bots all over the place denying it happened and suggesting bobbins (or his informants) are liars.King Boonen said:All Bobbins has basically done has said Sky might or might not have broken the rules.
No-one's called him a liar. They have just treated him with scepticism. After all there are lots of people on the internet claiming to be something they're not.sniper said:Exaclty. Funny to see the bots all over the place denying it happened and suggesting bobbins (or his informants) are liars.
That's cognitive bias run amok.sniper said:you'd start with the working assumption that bobbins' allegations are correct
Funny to see you accuse others of hypocrisy when you have been caught lying twice in the last few days.sniper said:that's true. but go back to bobbins post and you'll see it was merely a reply to an interview where Sir Dave was once again playing holier than the pope explicitly suggesting Sky are frontrunners in the fight against doping and an example for other teams.
irrespective of whether the rules were broken with that TUE, bobbins' list did a good job exposing Sir D's hypocricy.
Exaclty. Funny to see the bots all over the place denying it happened and suggesting bobbins (or his informants) are liars.