Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[sniper]

The UCI allow retroactive TUEs as well (section 4.3 of the TUE guidelines) and so do every other sports governing body.
That's why unless bobbins reveals a little more of the circumstances it's not really incriminating. The phrase 'backdated TUE' with no context is designed to invite parallels to Armstrong.

that's true. but go back to bobbins post and you'll see it was merely a reply to an interview where Sir Dave was once again playing holier than the pope explicitly suggesting Sky are frontrunners in the fight against doping and an example for other teams.
irrespective of whether the rules were broken with that TUE, bobbins' list did a good job exposing Sir D's hypocricy.

All Bobbins has basically done has said Sky might or might not have broken the rules.

Exaclty. Funny to see the bots all over the place denying it happened and suggesting bobbins (or his informants) are liars.

 

[TailWindHome]

...

Excellent post
Thanks

 

[Parker]

Exaclty. Funny to see the bots all over the place denying it happened and suggesting bobbins (or his informants) are liars.

No-one's called him a liar. They have just treated him with scepticism. After all there are lots of people on the internet claiming to be something they're not.

So they are not going to say things like this

you'd start with the working assumption that bobbins' allegations are correct

That's cognitive bias run amok.

 

[pmcg76]

that's true. but go back to bobbins post and you'll see it was merely a reply to an interview where Sir Dave was once again playing holier than the pope explicitly suggesting Sky are frontrunners in the fight against doping and an example for other teams.
irrespective of whether the rules were broken with that TUE, bobbins' list did a good job exposing Sir D's hypocricy.


Exaclty. Funny to see the bots all over the place denying it happened and suggesting bobbins (or his informants) are liars.

Funny to see you accuse others of hypocrisy when you have been caught lying twice in the last few days.

Firstly claiming you had no idea what a sockpuppet was when you were banned for being a sockpuppet. You joined here in 2010 when Armstrong sockpuppets were everywhere and getting banned, so to claim ignorance is redundant.

Today you said that nobody here claims JV is doping his team, even though you claimed Girona was a doping hub for Garmin numerous times. I think Benotti claims JV is doping his team as have plenty of others over time.

You might think the likes of JV/Bralisford etc tell lies/half-truths and are hypocritical but then you and plenty others are no different. Oh the the hypocrisy

 

[sniper]

No-one's called him a liar.

called, no, suggested, yes.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Page after page questioning or defending bobbins' posts and credibility. Reminds me a little of the scrutiny Race Radio faced in the Lance years.

 

[the sceptic]

Page after page questioning or defending bobbins' posts and credibility. Reminds me a little of the scrutiny Race Radio faced in the Lance years.

Feels like I just woke up in 2012.

 

[sniper]

Funny to see you accuse others of hypocrisy when you have been caught lying twice in the last few days.

Firstly claiming you had no idea what a sockpuppet was when you were banned for being a sockpuppet. You joined here in 2010 when Armstrong sockpuppets were everywhere and getting banned, so to claim ignorance is redundant.

i knew someone would come back to hunt me with that sockpuppet thing.
didn't know it would be you, but fair game i guess.

Today you said that nobody here claims JV is doping his team, even though you claimed Girona was a doping hub for Garmin numerous times. I think Benotti claims JV is doping his team as have plenty of others over time.

this is black-white thinking, i've seen you go down that route more often.
I'll spell it out for you: I think it's no coincidence Garmin are in Girona (indeed doping related). I don't think JV dopes his riders.
If you see a contradiction there, i can't help you any further.

 

[pmcg76]

thanks, now that's clearly stating your opinion, although it strikes me as a particulrly ill informed opinion, which is odd for someone so knowledgeable on the history of cycling like you.

I never claimed otherwise. I am as willing to believe what Bobbins is posting as what I have heard about Garmin. I don't know how that makes me ill informed. On the other hand you seem willing to believe one but not the other which is just confirmation bias.

 

[sniper]

I never claimed otherwise. I am as willing to believe what Bobbins is posting as what I have heard about Garmin. I don't know how that makes me ill informed. On the other hand you seem willing to believe one but not the other which is just confirmation bias.

let recent history be your guide.

 

[pmcg76]

i knew some bot would come back to hunt me with that sockpuppet thing.
didn't know it would be you, but fair game i guess.

this is black-white thinking, i've seen you go down that route more often.
I'll spell it out for you: I think it's no coincidence Garmin are in Girona (indeed doping related). I don't think JV dopes his riders.
If you see a contradiction there, i can't help you any further.

JV is not doping his team but he was the one who set the team up in Girona and made it their team HQ.

Let me see if I can get this, JV is not personally doping his team but set them up in Girona for others to dope so he can claim no involvement all the while knowing they are doping. Is that it?

 

[sniper]

Sorry sniper, I cannot quite reach your low level of thinking.

JV is not doping his team but he was the one who set the team up in Girona and made it their team HQ.

Let me see if I can get this, JV is not personally doping his team but set them up in Girona for others to dope so he can claim no involvement all the while knowing they are doping.

it's painful seeing you struggle.
For more nuance, I refer to the dedicated JV/Garmin/Ryder threads.

more generally, how exactly teams and individual riders dope these days, only the teams and individual riders know.

 

[pmcg76]

it's painful seeing you struggle.
For more nuance, I refer to the dedicated JV/Garmin/Ryder threads.

more generally, how exactly teams and individual riders dope these days, only the teams and individual riders know.

You are still making zero sense and I know there is nothing in those threads that explain it any better.

It must be hard to tell so may lies and half-truths that you cannot keep up with them.

 

[sniper]

You are still making zero sense and I know there is nothing in those threads that explain it any better.

It must be hard to tell so may lies and half-truths that you cannot keep up with them.

fair points.

 

[Benotti69]

You are still making zero sense and I know there is nothing in those threads that explain it any better.

It must be hard to tell so may lies and half-truths that you cannot keep up with them.

And yet you are able to follow cycling with all the half truths and so maNy lies.....chapeau, aren't you a great lad!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

except it never was a secret.............so if team sky had no reason to keep

employment of leinders secret how likely is it that a doping programme

was being run?

Mark L

What exactly would leinders do at team sky besides setting up doping? That was all he was good for.

 

[samhocking]

What exactly would leinders do at team sky besides setting up doping? That was all he was good for.

My favourite quote answers this perfectly:

"Brailsford hired Leinders and then allowed him to single-handedly rip up the Sky ProCycling business plan, get all the medical team (with their successful, untainted careers) and cyclists (with Olympic medals hanging round their necks) to potentially throw away their futures and tarnish the reputation of British Cycling to help Wiggins to win the Tour by doping. On the eve of the London 2012 games. As I say, it doesn’t add up to being even a remotely logical decision."

 

[42x16ss]

My favourite quote answers this perfectly:

"Brailsford hired Leinders and then allowed him to single-handedly rip up the Sky ProCycling business plan, get all the medical team (with their successful, untainted careers) and cyclists (with Olympic medals hanging round their necks) to potentially throw away their futures and tarnish the reputation of British Cycling to help Wiggins to win the Tour by doping. On the eve of the London 2012 games. As I say, it doesn’t add up to being even a remotely logical decision."

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that...

 

[sniper]

What exactly would leinders do at team sky besides setting up doping? That was all he was good for.

he did it all at Rabo:

- purchase
- administering
- see who glows, i.e. help fly below the radar
- TUEs
- contacts with Zorzoli (overlaps with the previous)
- treat saddle sore

some would claim only the latter skill was sought after by Sky.

more seriously: i've heard posters claim he put (only or mainly) the latter three skills to use at Sky. But that's speculating, and he may have been more 'deeply' involved with individual riders of course.

Anyway, there's no way Brailsford et al. didn't know about Leinders' role at Rabo (especially as Geert had been so closely involved with both Menchov and Rasmussen, two riders whose doping was well known in and around the peloton), so indeed it's difficult to fathom he was hired for anything else than PED-related issues.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

What exactly would leinders do at team sky besides setting up doping? That was all he was good for.

Operation of Peter Kennaugh's bathroom scale.

One time I tried that without doctor's supervision and wound up with a broken tibula

 

[DirtyWorks]

he did it all at Rabo:

- purchase
- administering
- see who glows, i.e. help fly below the radar
- TUEs
- contacts with Zorzoli (overlaps with the previous)
- treat saddle sore

some would claim only the latter skill was sought after by Sky.

more seriously: i've heard posters claim he put (only or mainly) the latter three skills to use at Sky. But that's speculating, and he may have been more 'deeply' involved with individual riders of course.

Anyway, there's no way Brailsford et al. didn't know about Leinders' role at Rabo (especially as Geert had been so closely involved with both Menchov and Rasmussen, two riders whose doping was well known in and around the peloton), so indeed it's difficult to fathom he was hired for anything else than PED-related issues.

Leinder's most famous doping experiment was Michael Rasmussen.

Rabbo's optional doping program winds down and Leinders leaves. He's innocent! Hapless victim!!!

 

[ebandit]

exactly

What exactly would leinders do at team sky besides setting up doping? That was all he was good for.

exactly! we need to find out........................but if you hire a doctor to

run a doping programme would they be listed as being an employee?

just because a doctor had certain responsibilities at a former team does

not automatically mean they will continue to do likewise

Mark L

 

[samhocking]

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that...

I will, because it's based on more sound logic and evidence than simply saying, he must have doped Wiggins because he doped Rasmussen. Show me the money and i'll change my mind.

 

[42x16ss]

I will, because it's based on more sound logic and evidence than simply saying, he must have doped Wiggins because he doped Rasmussen. Show me the money and i'll change my mind.

Hmmm, you do know Rasmussen didn't fail a test right? He got busted by accident when a journo saw him training in the Dolomites instead of Mexico...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Hmmm, you do know Rasmussen didn't fail a test right? He got busted by accident when a journo saw him training in the Dolomites instead of Mexico...

He had missed a fair few OOC tests though.

I think you're missing the point somewhat. I think Sam was asking for evidence that Wiggo was doping rather than you simply concluding this from the Leinders link to both Wiggo and Rasmussen and Rasmussen's doping.