Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

I think there is a degree of hysteria being whipped up against Sky that was notably absent from Nibali's win last year, despite Astana openly stinking to high heaven.

I think there are all sorts of factors at play here, some fair, some not, but undoubtedly Sky have opened themselves up for it by the uncomfortable juxtaposition of their pronouncements on ZTP and the unusual trajectory of their riders.

That will be the Walsh factor. No one doubted Astana were old school, but there were not many calling them clean.

Where was Walsh's outrage at Il Giro when Astana dominated. He said little for fear of being called on it now as Sky dominate the TdF.

Walsh's story of USPS and Sky are poles apart. The stratospheric flip is as big as Froome's rise from hanging onto motorbikes to GT winner.

For sure Walsh is part of the Sky PR team. He did some great work on USPS, but his bravest move was challenging his fellow-countryman, Roche, on air, on an Irish chat show. That took real balls. His eulogising of Sky is a complete volte-face, and it stands out a mile against the rest of his career. Who knows why he's done this. It could be money, or it could be that he felt that his brave root and branch work at unseating Armstrong would help clean up cycling and he struggles to think it might have been a waste of time.

But I doubt your average roadside Frenchman reads Walsh. Like I said, I think there is plenty of bullsh!t hypocritical nationalism going on, on all sides. We can all point the finger at Sky if we want, but perhaps that just helps us avoid the uncomfortable possibility that sport isnt really sport at all.

 

[Sasquatch]

Kennaugh struggling. He must have got the bad batch.

 

[S2Sturges]

Re:

Kennaugh struggling. He must have got the bad batch.

Or feeling the bad vibes from the spectators ... The Tour director has called for respect for the yellow jersey, I'm sure it's still respected, but the arrogant guy wearing it and his team have to start respecting the people and quit treating them like fools with their "scientific training", their "marginal gains" and whatever other blather they try and force feed down our necks... Giving the other riders and spectators attitude is only going to backfire soon.... Be lucky if one of them doesn't get a stick in the front wheel

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I think there is a degree of hysteria being whipped up against Sky that was notably absent from Nibali's win last year, despite Astana openly stinking to high heaven.

I think there are all sorts of factors at play here, some fair, some not, but undoubtedly Sky have opened themselves up for it by the uncomfortable juxtaposition of their pronouncements on ZTP and the unusual trajectory of their riders.

That will be the Walsh factor. No one doubted Astana were old school, but there were not many calling them clean.

Where was Walsh's outrage at Il Giro when Astana dominated. He said little for fear of being called on it now as Sky dominate the TdF.

Walsh's story of USPS and Sky are poles apart. The stratospheric flip is as big as Froome's rise from hanging onto motorbikes to GT winner.

For sure Walsh is part of the Sky PR team. He did some great work on USPS, but his bravest move was challenging his fellow-countryman, Roche, on air, on an Irish chat show. That took real balls. His eulogising of Sky is a complete volte-face, and it stands out a mile against the rest of his career. Who knows why he's done this. It could be money, or it could be that he felt that his brave root and branch work at unseating Armstrong would help clean up cycling and he struggles to think it might have been a waste of time.

But I doubt your average roadside Frenchman reads Walsh. Like I said, I think there is plenty of bullsh!t hypocritical nationalism going on, on all sides. We can all point the finger at Sky if we want, but perhaps that just helps us avoid the uncomfortable possibility that sport isnt really sport at all.

My guess is Walsh is getting quoted by lots of French, Dutch, German etc journalists, he is the guy who called out Armstrong but is not claiming SKy are clean, when we look at the images we dont see clean, so Walsh is i would say being quoted when it comes to Sky/Froome. Walsh went on a tour of the tv chat show circuit with his book 'Seven Deadly Sins' so cycling fans of most countries will know of him even if they cannot read him in full.

Professional sport long stopped looking like sport, It is entertainment mixed with business.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Brailsford has said on french tv that he doesn't know Froome's weight at the moment.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Where was Walsh's outrage at Il Giro when Astana dominated. He said little for fear of being called on it now as Sky dominate the TdF.

Actually, Walsh did say stuff about finding the Giro impossible to enjoy and finding it uncomfortable viewing because of Astana's riding.

In fact, almost identical words to Laurent Jalabert said about Sky's Tour de France performance that had Mr & Mrs Froome in such a tizz, and far more direct accusations than Rasmussen's comments that caused Kennaugh to try to bully the Chicken.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

Brailsford has said on french tv that he doesn't know Froome's weight at the moment.

Not surprised. They don't know anything about him from what we are told. Weight, V02 , random unknown diseases, Asthma, etc. They just bring cyclist in and give them special pillows, pants and any other marginal gain. The rest is pure sports.

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

Brailsford has said on french tv that he doesn't know Froome's weight at the moment.

Not surprised. They don't know anything about him from what we are told. Weight, V02 , random unknown diseases, Asthma, etc. They just bring cyclist in and give them special pillows, pants and any other marginal gain. The rest is pure sports.

Imagine he had the campervan

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Where was Walsh's outrage at Il Giro when Astana dominated. He said little for fear of being called on it now as Sky dominate the TdF.

Actually, Walsh did say stuff about finding the Giro impossible to enjoy and finding it uncomfortable viewing because of Astana's riding.

In fact, almost identical words to Laurent Jalabert said about Sky's Tour de France performance that had Mr & Mrs Froome in such a tizz, and far more direct accusations than Rasmussen's comments that caused Kennaugh to try to bully the Chicken.

I do not recollect Jalabert not enjoying Jice Peraud being able to follow Nibali occasionally last year.

 

[Lyon]

From a certain point of view it is easy to have sympathy for Sky - they are only doing what others have done before them, but are doing so at a moment in time where people have grown tired of the same old same old. It is their own fault, of course, but they (and their fans) feel hard done by.

 

[Franklin]

Re:

I think there is a degree of hysteria being whipped up against Sky that was notably absent from Nibali's win last year, despite Astana openly stinking to high heaven.

There was not much contention there.

No Astana fans who frothing at the mouth were declaring our insinuations were unfair as "Astana had 30 years of endurance sports experience due to their ice skating rink at Alma Ata".

I think there are all sorts of factors at play here, some fair, some not, but undoubtedly Sky have opened themselves up for it by the uncomfortable juxtaposition of their pronouncements on ZTP and the unusual trajectory of their riders.

You think huh?

I'm teasing you, not picking a fight

But I doubt your average roadside Frenchman reads Walsh. Like I said, I think there is plenty of bullsh!t hypocritical nationalism going on, on all sides. We can all point the finger at Sky if we want, but perhaps that just helps us avoid the uncomfortable possibility that sport isnt really sport at all.

You seem not to realize that you are erecting a strawman here.

Nobody here attacks Sky and then tries to defend another team. The consensus here is that probably the whole top is riding along with "medical" assistance.

But why is there so much scorn about Sky? Consider this. Vinokourov is untrustworthy and his team is plagued by positives. But his team is also under scrutiny and almost lost it's license. In the press the papers are overflowing with columns despising the team and it's riders.

Sky otoh is not plagued by positives, but their manager is a serial liar (about very important things...), riders are performing beyond belief but is somehow being flaunted as the gem of clean cycling.

The bile in the clinic is the reaction on that hypocrisy.

 

[Nighttrain99]

Re:

From a certain point of view it is easy to have sympathy for Sky - they are only doing what others have done before them, but are doing so at a moment in time where people have grown tired of the same old same old. It is their own fault, of course, but they (and their fans) feel hard done by.

Very true. Many of us gave up a long time ago on watching a pro bike race (or most any other sporting event) that we believed to be contested by clean athletes. We just want to view a race with somewhat believable results played out with strategies and suffering for which we can relate. Beginning with Wiggins' TdF victory Sky has provided ridiculous performances making it impossible to temporarily suspend common sense while enjoying the spectacle of the beautiful TdF. It looks like USPS all over again.

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

I think there is a degree of hysteria being whipped up against Sky that was notably absent from Nibali's win last year, despite Astana openly stinking to high heaven.

There was not much contention there.

No Astana fans who frothing at the mouth were declaring our insinuations were unfair as "Astana had 30 years of endurance sports experience due to their ice skating rink at Alma Ata".

I think there are all sorts of factors at play here, some fair, some not, but undoubtedly Sky have opened themselves up for it by the uncomfortable juxtaposition of their pronouncements on ZTP and the unusual trajectory of their riders.

You think huh?

I'm teasing you, not picking a fight

I'm talking about the reaction of people at the races, not on this forum. I've no idea what was or wasn't written here about Nibali's TDF win or their strength at the Giro! Give me a chance to go and read it!

 

[Franklin]

I think it's exactly the same at the races. It certainly can't be just the press as the attacks on Astana have been much, much harder. For example in the Netherlands Lars Boom has been torched about his decision to join Astana.

Yet all mainstream papers Im looking at here are pretty enthusiatic in their reports, salted with some neutral side articles about the wattage question.

And at the television I also fail to notice this huge anti-Sky atmosphere. Call me biased, but it's been uncritical for the most part as far as I can hear.

It's quite simple. There are quite a few idiots in the world and with all the media attention in general+ the unprecendented access to athletes (there's no sport like this) things like the kidney punch (Merckx) and the drunken idiots screaming insults at Froome are hard to avoid. It's extremely dangerous to blame the media, especially since the media does not seem to be as critical a you would think if you believe the Sky riders.

And yes, I'm sure they feel like they are unfairly treated, but that's a result of the glass-bubble they occupy during the TdF. They are simply unable to fairly judge it all. I'm not blaming the riders, just as I was not so shocked about Wiggins loosing his cool when he was in yellow. They are human. But that still does not change that I think their complaints are invalid and even a bit dangerous. Censorship is never correct.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

[Walsh's] eulogising of Sky is a complete volte-face, and it stands out a mile against the rest of his career.

Actually, it does not. It's quite the perfect fit, in fact.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Where was Walsh's outrage at Il Giro when Astana dominated. He said little for fear of being called on it now as Sky dominate the TdF.

Actually, Walsh did say stuff about finding the Giro impossible to enjoy and finding it uncomfortable viewing because of Astana's riding.

In fact, almost identical words to Laurent Jalabert said about Sky's Tour de France performance that had Mr & Mrs Froome in such a tizz, and far more direct accusations than Rasmussen's comments that caused Kennaugh to try to bully the Chicken.

I do not recollect Jalabert not enjoying Jice Peraud being able to follow Nibali occasionally last year.

Notwithstanding that Jice Peraud being able to climb at a top level isn't as surprising as Geraint Thomas is (Jice had been a climber since his conversion to the road in his early 30s, whereas Thomas is a rouleur, Classics specialist who's built up his climbing ability from powering over smaller hills to suddenly climbing with the best on long and steep monsters), let's just say that Jalabert being a hypocrite is hardly surprising.

However, my point was that Sky were getting rather upset about Jalabert saying that the Tour was uncomfortable viewing, but that was exactly what David Walsh was saying about the Giro because of Astana. Surely having felt like that as an outsider looking at Astana, he can appreciate how Jalabert feels as an outsider looking at Sky. And considering what Walsh said about Astana was more directly insulting than what Michael Rasmussen said about Thomas, perhaps he might agree that Peter Kennaugh is way out of line trying to bully the Chicken about it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

I'm talking about the reaction of people at the races, not on this forum. I've no idea what was or wasn't written here about Nibali's TDF win or their strength at the Giro! Give me a chance to go and read it!

What's also worth noting is that at every pro race I've been to in the last 5 years Sky have been the least accessible team. They've taken up the most space at some, fenced off so fans can't look at the bikes, erected screens at the 2012 Vuelta so nobody could see into their little area, and so on. At smaller races this has been less the case, however the space-hogging motorhome stuff is hardly surprising to most of us who've been to races.

You can argue that keeping the fans at arm's length to give the riders a bit more space and time to prepare in peace is a sensible strategy and could be a marginal gain. I get the benefit of it. But making them seen more distant and inaccessible to the fans in a sport where one of the selling points of the fan experience is the accessibility of riders also makes them seem aloof and less likable because you don't have the opportunity to gain that same connection to them.

 

[Lyon]

In many ways Sky is the cycling equivalent of the Norwegian national cross-country team.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re:

In many ways Sky is the cycling equivalent of the Norwegian national cross-country team.

Indeed, although I would say Miss Norway here is the exact opposite of the Dawg:

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Where was Walsh's outrage at Il Giro when Astana dominated. He said little for fear of being called on it now as Sky dominate the TdF.

Actually, Walsh did say stuff about finding the Giro impossible to enjoy and finding it uncomfortable viewing because of Astana's riding.

In fact, almost identical words to Laurent Jalabert said about Sky's Tour de France performance that had Mr & Mrs Froome in such a tizz, and far more direct accusations than Rasmussen's comments that caused Kennaugh to try to bully the Chicken.

I do not recollect Jalabert not enjoying Jice Peraud being able to follow Nibali occasionally last year.

Notwithstanding that Jice Peraud being able to climb at a top level isn't as surprising as Geraint Thomas is (Jice had been a climber since his conversion to the road in his early 30s, whereas Thomas is a rouleur, Classics specialist who's built up his climbing ability from powering over smaller hills to suddenly climbing with the best on long and steep monsters), let's just say that Jalabert being a hypocrite is hardly surprising.

However, my point was that Sky were getting rather upset about Jalabert saying that the Tour was uncomfortable viewing, but that was exactly what David Walsh was saying about the Giro because of Astana. Surely having felt like that as an outsider looking at Astana, he can appreciate how Jalabert feels as an outsider looking at Sky. And considering what Walsh said about Astana was more directly insulting than what Michael Rasmussen said about Thomas, perhaps he might agree that Peter Kennaugh is way out of line trying to bully the Chicken about it.

No, you misunderstood me. My point was that Jalabert kept quiet about a suspicious performance from a suspicious rider because the French were actually in contention that year.

Jalabert is an opportunist riding an opinion wave and should be treated as such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=29u-H3xM5rE#t=266

Ignore all the stuff about his past and focus on how he treats different dopers as a commentator.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I will say this, and maybe I am being generous, but Walsh's piece today seemed to have doubt sprinkled in places.

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

Re: Re:

I do not recollect Jalabert not enjoying Jice Peraud being able to follow Nibali occasionally last year.

Notwithstanding that Jice Peraud being able to climb at a top level isn't as surprising as Geraint Thomas is (Jice had been a climber since his conversion to the road in his early 30s, whereas Thomas is a rouleur, Classics specialist who's built up his climbing ability from powering over smaller hills to suddenly climbing with the best on long and steep monsters), let's just say that Jalabert being a hypocrite is hardly surprising.

However, my point was that Sky were getting rather upset about Jalabert saying that the Tour was uncomfortable viewing, but that was exactly what David Walsh was saying about the Giro because of Astana. Surely having felt like that as an outsider looking at Astana, he can appreciate how Jalabert feels as an outsider looking at Sky. And considering what Walsh said about Astana was more directly insulting than what Michael Rasmussen said about Thomas, perhaps he might agree that Peter Kennaugh is way out of line trying to bully the Chicken about it.

No, you misunderstood me. My point was that Jalabert kept quiet about a suspicious performance from a suspicious rider because the French were actually in contention that year.

Jalabert is an opportunist riding an opinion wave and should be treated as such.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=29u-H3xM5rE#t=266

Ignore all the stuff about his past and focus on how he treats different dopers as a commentator.

Except Peraud is a climber. Him being able to hang on to Nibali on some stages and not on others was hardly suspicious. The year before he'd have finished comfortably in the top ten had he not crashed on the TT, he finished in the top ten in his first tour. It's hardly comparable.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Brailsford has said on french tv that he doesn't know Froome's weight at the moment.

Do you know what the exact question and answer were?

 

[LeindersGains]

Re: Re:

Brailsford has said on french tv that he doesn't know Froome's weight at the moment.

Do you know what the exact question and answer were?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-repeats-call-for-implementation-of-power-data-passport

French television report estimates Froome’s La Pierre-Saint Martin power at 7.04 W/kg.

 

[wendybnt]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-repeats-call-for-implementation-of-power-data-passport

So French tv is estimating Froomes power at 7.04watts/kg on La PSM

......based on froome being 71kg

I'm almost, but not quite, feeling a bit sorry for Froome, with the amount of totally unmitigated horsesh!t that is being thrown at him.