Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dan2016]

Re:

no one see the perverse irony about the MPs grilling Sky factotums in parliament and inquiries?

so... lets get this straight, they revel in the BoJo 2012 London Olympics and content to fly the flag of nationalism and usher in all the gold medals?

So they cheer and applaud(the politicians get their faces on podiums and rostrums like Bojo), and constituents vote them back in. And these are MPs, politicians, they have done the hard graft and gladhanding of numbers politiking and getting pre-selected then getting elected. They. Know. Where. The. Bodies. Are. Buried.

Now, when they see the tide shifting, they choose to switch sides. manifest hypocrisy.

The devil's advocate in me, actually sees the validity to support Froome, to support Wiggins, to support Brailsford, to support Bruyneel. to support Lance. Why?

Am I being hypocritical when I have potted them? Or have I just brought some Wildean drollery to some absurd imbroglio.

here is the problem, we are drilled into us, thru pedagogy and youth in the west, personal freedoms. Our autonomy, our personal property rights. When in fact, most of us have zero autonomy as Milgram demonstrated.

The entire system is predicated on suspension of disbelief. So, I may be contradicting myself here, (wrt system v personal) but, if there was this agency, you have willing sublimated your agency to believe in Lance, to believe in Nike, to believe in Sky, to believe in Froome, to believe in marginal gains, to believe in Walsh. But Walsh may be another hypocrite, or you are just too willing to believe he took down Lance and he ghosts Froome's autobiography, and Froome wrestles anacondas, and feeds them rabbits from the local kindergarten across the road.

or was it guinea pigs. heck, I aint my own New Yorker fact checking dep't am I.

Ha ha, like a mad intellectual's stream of consciousness post. I like it.

The absurd is good, acknowledging our hypocrisy likewise, but supporting Sky now is impossible innit? Support them in an amusingly absurd way though, I could get that. The degree of lies and manipulation and intelligence-insulting management speak has been too much. But buy all the team kit and go riding, definitely, great craic.

I'd quite like to literally hang them. Not in a nasty way just a kind of Monty Python style, Froome in his yellow jersey, bike gaffa taped under him, screaming 'yes certainly yes certainly' in a panicked psychosis. Brailsford, hanging, jowls clenched giving a last minute management speech whilst his hands are being flapped in various shapes by a midget puppeteer perched ontop the gibbet cackling manically. Maybe that's more Jodorowsky than Monty Python (anyone seen the film El Topo?).

Anyway I was gonna say, I like the Milgram reference, fascinated me for years that'un. Our autonomy is being manipulated constantly (if we even have any at all, deterministic theory etc) and a lot of fans have been manipulated by Sky, like Armstrong before. It's a bit difficult for some to admit being duped and so they maintain their 'suspension of disbelief' (see Bikeradar discussions!!).

I wonder if Sky, with their vast media empire resources, have been using Artificial Intelligence via Facebook, Google, Twitter etc., to target their PR and gather their fan base. The technology is there (see Trump election, Brexit etc). Even if Sky only use it in a fairly minimal way it's possible in a relatively short time their current problems will be forgotten and they will carry on regardless with the same number of Sky-clad fanboys filling the UK roads (see Bikeradar!!).

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I wonder if Sky, with their vast media empire resources, have been using Artificial Intelligence via Facebook, Google, Twitter etc., to target their PR and gather their fan base. The technology is there (see Trump election, Brexit etc). Even if Sky only use it in a fairly minimal way it's possible in a relatively short time their current problems will be forgotten and they will carry on regardless with the same number of Sky-clad fanboys filling the UK roads (see Bikeradar!!).

ofcourse 'we' enable them. I mentioned in this post following viewtopic.php?p=2069216#p2069216, about the suspension of disbelief, and ofcourse it follows, we enable them buying 7k GBP Pinarellos kitted out with Dura-ace automatic shifting

the only time i spend 7k pounds is when I have won[sic] of froomes motors inside it giving me 200watts over 60 minutes.otherwised, wont pay the money.

*and 'sublimating one's agency' is almost Zeno's paradox. can one abnegate autonomy? oxymoron

 

[seldon71]

British Cycling should be given same treatment as Russian athletes. Ban whole country - give special permits to athletes who can prove no contact with British Cycling set-up in Manchester.

 

[bigcog]

Does this mean Froomie gets a fourth TDF ? He is cleanz btw It is the other fella who is a bit gnarly haha

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Re:

My guess is that 2 or 3 Sky riders who come off contract in 2017 ( riders Sky want to retain ) will move onto greener pastures.

Kwiatkowski
G.Thomas
Kennaugh
Stannard
Landa
Kiryenka

My guess is that a number of key domestiques were also dosing kenalogue to drop those last few kilos before major stage races. It's all about power to weight ratio and watts per kilo after all.

Everyone has assumed that there was one dose of whatever it was in that Jiffy bag.

Surely with a cupboard full in Manchester the whole team didn't have extreme hayfever.....

 

[nayr497]

They went with a "dog at my homework" like excuse? My computer was stolen while on holiday?! Oh man.

 

[Electress]

Cope 'I knew nothing at the time and I know nothing now and what I knew then I can't remember'. Bet he's seething - been made to look a total fool ; a general dogsbody with half a job. I'd feel like I'd been stitched up as well.

As for the 'lost computer'. Geez. They had missing medical records for 3 years for their star rider? What a crock.

Dog ate my homework indeed.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

My guess is that 2 or 3 Sky riders who come off contract in 2017 ( riders Sky want to retain ) will move onto greener pastures.

Kwiatkowski
G.Thomas
Kennaugh
Stannard
Landa
Kiryenka

My guess is that a number of key domestiques were also dosing kenalogue to drop those last few kilos before major stage races. It's all about power to weight ratio and watts per kilo after all.

Everyone has assumed that there was one dose of whatever it was in that Jiffy bag.

Surely with a cupboard full in Manchester the whole team didn't have extreme hayfever.....

it is lipotropin.

proof is, all the drugs were available in the previous era, and also in bodybuilding. In bodybuilding now, their out-of-competition walk-around-weight, is about 10% less than in the 90s and 2000s. Why? its the lipotropin stupid(George Stephanopoullos sounbite for bubba clinton)

they are all leaner. See Katusha's Zakarin. Nibali. mebbe Hesjedal (not sure on him). definitely Froome and Wiggins.

clen, hgh, testo, corticos, all available in the previous epoch. so that is the control sample. Available to bodybuilders and cyclists. now, bodybuilders dont put on all the extra weight out of competition. And in cycling, Froome and Wiggins got down about ~7% less weight than they would have in the mid-2000s if they were on a TdF gc tilt.

 

[Dan2016]

BBC Radio 5 Live now, cycling program in context of Sky shenanigans with journo Richard Moore and the boss of Wiggle women's team.
Froome interview: Hilarious. Very prickly. Says basically 'we just need to ignore what's going on right now', nothing to see hear. Gets defensive and denies the idea Sky won't get much roadside support in France in July. The guy is delusional, or in denial, or both.

Mildly interesting: Moore being guardedly very critical of Sky (I thought he was a fully paid up fanboy!?), suggesting tramadol and out-of-competition cortisone use in Sky are rampant (my word). Questioning this line between legal and ethical. Is doping just a legal issue or is it an ethical issue. Do riders carry a responsibility to define the ethics or just follow the current rules. Reckons if Brailsford goes the team will folds, cannot have one without the other.

Wiggle women says rider/s on her team was taking tramadol and she put a stop to it, not on ethical grounds but solely because of aggression and abuse towards staff as a drug side effect, and big come-downs after a tramadol high. I had no idea tramadol worked like that, with 'highs' and aggression.

 

[Dan2016]

BBC Radio 5...Ex British Cycling president Tony Doyle ripping shreds out of everyone right now. Not mincing words. Brailsford, Brian Cookson, Wiggins, Freeman etc. ''Wiggins needs to stop hiding and be honest with everyone''. ''Freeman needs to not cry off sick''. ''Cookson has a lot of questions to answer''.
Full of support for good old Shane Sutton though. He's been made a fall-guy apparently. I can't work that one out but anyway...

 

[pastronef]

Re:

everyone is still suppressing disbelief.

The kenakort is not the key. It is just a smoking gun for you gumshoes. This is not the key input in their doping program. The need the O2 vector techniques. They will have quite an advanced logistical enterprise. P'raps in 2012 Wiggins, Michelle Cound was running Edita Rumsas for Froome. perhaps.

So, this search for some inconsequential detail to prove 'I told you so' is but fool's errand.

And when the rest of the gc competitors, are on the same gear, but we cannot find their missing prescription for kenacort. This is almost as stupid as the PBS podcast investigation of a murder a dozen years ago with Serial. The most ridiculous thing ever. It is like an inverted New Yorker fact checking dep't in gestalt with Donald Trump's handle on the truth.

Zizek said, the wife will tolerate the husband dicking his secretary, until she sees him in flagrante with her. again, the suppression of disbelief action of self-protection.

so i invite the question: what is the difference, fluimecil no fluimecil, prescription, TUE, or not, kenacort w/o a TUE, or with a TUE, Fancy Bears or Albino Bears,

what proof do you require, do you want proof of the techniques of how they make this sausage? Aint the proof just looking at the history of cycling and using your own brain. turn on your brain peeps.

yes but for now this kind of proof could make Sky and UK sport stop the £££ founding, but until there is no official proof, no knighthoods nor Tour wins can be taken away.
that´s what I am curious about. the investigation still needs to go on, and the contents of the jiffy bag made clear before Wada or Ukad can do something.
no?

 

[keeponrollin]

Re:

BBC Radio 5...Ex British Cycling president Tony Doyle ripping shreds out of everyone right now. Not mincing words. Brailsford, Brian Cookson, Wiggins, Freeman etc. ''Wiggins needs to stop hiding and be honest with everyone''. ''Freeman needs to not cry off sick''. ''Cookson has a lot of questions to answer''.
Full of support for good old Shane Sutton though. He's been made a fall-guy apparently. I can't work that one out but anyway...

I'll have to listen back; but I don't think he mentioned Brailsford when he was dishing out the blame ?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

How does the monarch get rid of a SIR? a couple of them? I mean sir ***** witz fitz and **** pederverts? Should not be a sir any longer NO?

Fing Brits and the BS. Give me tea and I will drown you.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

BBC Radio 5...Ex British Cycling president Tony Doyle ripping shreds out of everyone right now. Not mincing words. Brailsford, Brian Cookson, Wiggins, Freeman etc. ''Wiggins needs to stop hiding and be honest with everyone''. ''Freeman needs to not cry off sick''. ''Cookson has a lot of questions to answer''.
Full of support for good old Shane Sutton though. He's been made a fall-guy apparently. I can't work that one out but anyway...

I'll have to listen back; but I don't think he mentioned Brailsford when he was dishing out the blame ?

How can 'The Mastermind' not be called to account for this?

 

[ferryman]

If only I could post a hammer noise, hammering a nail inl:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-former-doctor-remains-sceptical-over-fluimucil-story

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

yes but for now this kind of proof could make Sky and UK sport stop the £££ founding, but until there is no official proof, no knighthoods nor Tour wins can be taken away.
that´s what I am curious about. the investigation still needs to go on, and the contents of the jiffy bag made clear before Wada or Ukad can do something.
no?

we have seen in cycling under Verbruggen, 'proof', as in, this proof you seek, is a difficult and inaccessible thing to attain. With good reason. The WADA statute and regulations have thresholds before you are assessed to test 'non-negative'.

As I said in the post immediately before^, an experienced person in the field, a biochemist/doctor in blood/ will be able to see all of one's bloodwork, their testing, their MSGC tests, other urine tests, other blood tests, and assess it as NOT NORMAL.

We cannot prosecute this case at WADA. athletes know they have thresholds to stay within. and they know if they are up before a WADA sanctioning committee, they can fight it if they have the resources like Landis, and keep it before the 'courts' for years. And this inverts the deterrent principle of justice, they have turned it onto the administrative body, and deterred them from 'prosecuting' borderline and/or ambiguous threshold 'breaches'.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

If only I could post a hammer noise, hammering a nail inl:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-former-doctor-remains-sceptical-over-fluimucil-story

the doctor would know. nice diplomatic response. nice to know that doctors are regular people who lie.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

yes but for now this kind of proof could make Sky and UK sport stop the £££ founding, but until there is no official proof, no knighthoods nor Tour wins can be taken away.

this post pastronef I filed it away in the Brits Don't Dope thread. because, as we know, what a silly question, ofcourse they don't dope. They have also left the forum and cannot now report my posts to the moderators as racist and full of profanity

this is the only way a doctor can operate on a full-service cycling operation.

If you have the blood-work and urine assay tests, or a gas chromatography mass spectrometer urine result, it is simple for an experienced person in this field, to work out if this is NOT NORMAL. Control sample is all the thousands of other examples they have seen.

The doctor can only work with a shield of plausible deniability. (I jokingly refer to it as implausible undeniability[sic] )

It is a Damocles sword, so when he is found out, inevitably those at the pinnacle will take the proportion and toughest scrutiny, i) he only has his implausible undeniability[sic] and ii) he may have a semblance of cover, whilst also being thrown under the bus, but those above him, as scapegoat. so those above him will seek to at once, protect, whilst also being expedient, and get him to take the proportion of the blame. We call this the bad apples maxim. There are a few bad apples. This will apply to professional equivalents and those in the respectable professional and guilds with the hippocratic oaths like medicine. He will not be prosecuted or taken before any medical guild and have a hearing to see his medical practising licence revoked. wont happen. like no banker took any heat or prosecuted by the SEC for the banking crisis. This is not how those institutions operate.

A doctor cannot keep records of something that will be self-incriminating and incriminate the team. It is a paradox.

So we should stop seeking such professional ethichs, and recalibrate the lens and realise this is a different sphere of operation. You must seek to see the indirect and circumstantial pieces of evidence, of which the greatest one is a polymath's view on the history and behaviour in the sport. If you seek to hold the doctor of a sporting team to the same context and professional expectation of the local GP or specialist doctor working in the private sector, well then... in the words of Jan Ullrich, I can't help you. You have the assessment incorrectly calibrated from the start, and no chance you can ever find the most accurate analysis at the final stage.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

everyone is still suppressing disbelief.

The kenakort is not the key. It is just a smoking gun for you gumshoes. This is not the key input in their doping program. The need the O2 vector techniques. They will have quite an advanced logistical enterprise. P'raps in 2012 Wiggins, Michelle Cound was running Edita Rumsas for Froome. perhaps.

So, this search for some inconsequential detail to prove 'I told you so' is but fool's errand.

And when the rest of the gc competitors, are on the same gear, but we cannot find their missing prescription for kenacort. This is almost as stupid as the PBS podcast investigation of a murder a dozen years ago with Serial. The most ridiculous thing ever. It is like an inverted New Yorker fact checking dep't in gestalt with Donald Trump's handle on the truth.

Zizek said, the wife will tolerate the husband dicking his secretary, until she sees him in flagrante with her. again, the suppression of disbelief action of self-protection.

so i invite the question: what is the difference, fluimecil no fluimecil, prescription, TUE, or not, kenacort w/o a TUE, or with a TUE, Fancy Bears or Albino Bears,

what proof do you require, do you want proof of the techniques of how they make this sausage? Aint the proof just looking at the history of cycling and using your own brain. turn on your brain peeps.

The suppression of disbelief goes deeper than that, does it not? It is a necessary condition for having any investment in the sport at all (or any sport), above and beyond some dialectic of doping/clean.

I realised this in myself when the tdf ran last year ~ and suddenly considered the threat of terror attacks in France, against the fantasy space of cols and tt's; and this sense that terrorism had already succeeded in violating the dream bubble that is the tdf.

To return Zizek on you, that's the Real intervening. The rest is all symbolic, and it all requires that suppression of disbelief.

 

[aphronesis]

Can't skip fantasy (fans under symbolic; team player aspirations) if you're bringing on Zizek's (Lacan).

@cat, re Murdoch: no prizes for why Freud and Jung could never make the Elektra complex dangerous.

 

[blackcat]

@aphronesis the most glaring is this lightfoot dance the pro sportsmen/women play, when they decry doping and castigate dopers like Ricco and Armstrong, whilst doing exactly the same thing themselves, the dissonance. They may justify it to themselves with aphorisms like 'it is not doping if it does not show up', then smear the character of Ricco and Diluca.*

*I am not aware of what character they have, but they smear their character nevertheless. Like Chelsea/Bradley Manning. This character defamation, is built into the system, it is institutional deterrence. Not a formal legal tenet of criminal deterrence, or civil engineering. But some manifestation of institutional bodies and bureaucracies and how they protect their own operations. It is another form like a mafia.

If we go back on all of Wiggins' quotes, we can indict him using his own words; hung on his own petard.

also, built into the system, the system of pro sport, it may be mere microcosm of capitalist society, professional sport cannot fathom risk, that cant estimate, and have zero concept of risk management.

One may see this as an opportunity, like perfect market theory, there is an option to specialise (marginal gains anyone?) and see the vacuum where such expertise may fill an advantage... WRONG.

It is based on the one-true measurement and ultimate metric of pro sport. which is the W.

risk and risk management will never usher in a W. Even in the Festina year of 98 when half the teams went home. You would need every team to go home, and you being the only remaining team.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Can't skip fantasy (fans under symbolic; team player aspirations) if you're bringing on Zizek's (Lacan).

this is why it is not sport. sport involves the self, and an opponent. sometimes it is merely oneself. Extrinsic motivators and rewards are in no part of an authentic sport.

 

[spicelab]

This may seem a trifling issue and it is largely redundant, but it's been annoying me for ages.

Who was it who witnessed the Jiffy bag being delivered and why, in itself, would someone handling a Jiffy bag have raised eyebrows?

It's far from obvious, to me at least, what the crux of the suspicion was to whoever brought it to light.

I'm sure it must have been mentioned in some story or another, but everything I've read over the last 6 months has never properly drilled down and simply starts from the premise that the mere existence of a Jiffy bag is a 'thing'.

Is the gap in detail explainable simply as the source protecting their identity?

 

[samhocking]

Re:

This may seem a trifling issue and it is largely redundant, but it's been annoying me for ages.

Who was it who witnessed the Jiffy bag being delivered and why, in itself, would someone handling a Jiffy bag have raised eyebrows?

It's far from obvious, to me at least, what the crux of the suspicion was to whoever brought it to light.

I'm sure it must have been mentioned in some story or another, but everything I've read over the last 6 months has never properly drilled down and simply starts from the premise that the mere existence of a Jiffy bag is a 'thing'.

Is the gap in detail explainable simply as the source protecting their identity?

The allegation UKAD are investigating is they were informed that a package for Triamcinolone was transported from Manchester to Dauphine and administered to Wiggins 'during' the Dauphine race and they are seeking evidence of that anti-doping rule violation within the race being committed. Daily Mail or their informant doesn't have evidence to say it was Triamcinolone though so we don't know who informed them originally.

What i'm still not clear about is why Sapstead believes the in-competition prohibited list ends at midnight on the day of the race finishing? The UCI, UKAD, AFLD, WADA rules all state that although the event period for the race ends at midnight, the in-competition period (in terms of the prohibited substances list that applies) ends the moment you finish the race and pass through anti-doping control and give a sample. Then it simply says out-of-competition is active in any other period. Her comments suggest the event period and the in-competition period is essentially the same, which the rules clearly state it isn't in terms of what substance is prohibited at what time.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

How does the monarch get rid of a SIR? a couple of them? I mean sir ***** witz fitz and **** pederverts? Should not be a sir any longer NO?

Fing Brits and the BS. Give me tea and I will drown you.

Its the sole perogative of the monarch same as other honours.
Here is a partial list of revocations of all honours with some reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revocations_of_appointments_to_orders_and_awarded_decorations_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom


Fundamentally, if the person is bringing the system into disrepute, they will be stripped.

For Sir Wigans, pretty much only a revocation of his Tour win and 2012 medals would be likely grounds unless he goes full on crazy in interviews.