Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Cramps]

Listened to Cope's evidence to the Select Committee on iplayer. Thought I would share what I took to be highlights. It was nice to see MPs of all stripes digging into a story that didn't add up.

(Chair begins by noting that the ill Dr Freeman refused video link.)

The story was, as Cope would be in the area anyway, he was asked to take the sealed jiffy bag on this trip. BUT... The travel schedule for this flight, booked before the jiffy bag was given to Cope, meant Cope would fly out from Gatwick to Geneva, hire a car, drive a couple of hours to the stage finish, pick up Sutton, and drive back to the airport for return flight that night. A lot of travel for a few hours at the finish. Why fly Cope out for a few hours visit at the race finish? What was the purpose of this trip meant to be if not a delivery? Cope had no answer, just doing what his boss asked. He thought he might bring back some bikes?

The idea he might be bringing back some bikes was questioned, as Sky booked him a car not a van.

There was no paperwork associated with the delivery from any party at any time.: when Cope was given the package, or when Freeman received the package.

Cope: this is the only time he has ever delivered a package to a team doctor.

Probably 5 or 6 MPs questioned the propriety of bringing a sealed bag, contents unknown, through airport security and customs, and misleading security officials regarding his knowledge of contents.

MPs: Sky cares more about the package than they care about you, asking you to lie to security. Cope admits that if this was a PED, he would now be implicated. Cope agrees he has been left to dangle by Sky.

Under aggressive questioning, Cope admits he finds some gossip about doping in cycling to be credible. MP: So why didn't he ask about the contents of this medical package? Cope: He didn't believe BC was doping

Disagreed with a piece of Sutton's evidence to Committee, who said Cope picked up Sutton and brought some equipment back. Cope says he brought nothing back.

 

[Papparrazzi]

Re: Re:

Fully expect Freeman to claim he forgets what was in Jiffy bag and lost laptop to check his records.

Hope Freeman gets struck off, but i doubt it. Dr Bonar didn't.

But the investigation has been very weak, if at all. MPs have been the ones making ground. As usual outside forces are the ones doing the work of Anit-doping Authorities.

Sport is beyond fixing.

UKAD had little to no interest in investigating, it's only once it got to the CMS level they were forced to pretend they were doing something. You can clearly see Brailsford & co. have been running rings around UKAD for years.

Totally.

It was fascinating to see how uncomfortable Sapstead seemed to be whilst having to suggest wrongdoing by Team Sky.
That UKAD still haven't checked whether Freeman went to the police when his laptop was stolen is hilarious.
Sapstead had to invoke Interpol to make it seem like they're actually doing something.

Everything in her body language suggested a deeply rooted "We shall not step on any toes" attitude at UKAD.

UKAD need a pitbull, not a lapdog, running things.

Perfect description of her evidence. Her Interpol answer was lame.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Where are all the Sky defenders?

It's a serious question, I haven't seen much of them on this thread in the past six months or so.

I'm just curious if they left the forum because of the fallout of the TUE saga or other reasons....

well, it´s not easy. actually I hope no official sanction will be issued nor cash shortage from Sky. but it´s just a wish. I know they are in biiiig shyt, I am holding steady on the boards while the ship sinks, but I wish it all stays in the Clinic and on Twitter, where we know what the awful truth is. I just dont want to hear the people officially say "we told you" when-if wins and knighthoods will be stripped and Ukad, Wada and the committee will issue official news and confirmations.
it´s like Cancellara motor or Miguel EPO. we know it happened but not officially, no stripped wins etc

it´s childish I know, it´s a game, I am Italian, not even driven by national bias, neither having the Sky-love shoved down my throat every day like in UK (that´s what some UK twitter friends explained me)

one day I will understand what it took for Digger and co, the drive, the time, the energy it took for all these years to keep digging. one day I´ll open my eyes maybe.
but the level of vitriol from Digger, Hog and a few others I will never understand though, maybe that´s why I cheer Sky, for people blaming Froome on how he holds a coffee cup, for blaming him for training in S.A. where he grew up and raced and trained (while not caring about Dumoulin there) for moking Owain Doull when he was sick in January, for asking for Henao´s hospital pick saying he faked his crash, and many many other anecdotes.

what I hope is this 2011 mess won´t affect the 2017-18 season. for spite, because I want Sky to keep ruining races as the anti-sky and alberto-fans say
what would we want? katusha-astana-movi-bahrain to rule the races?
those clean teams? after the most evil and dangerous thing ever happened to cycling disappeared? naaaaaa!
I want Sky to keep racing, everyone has his own favourite doper and doped team!

Pffff. Big budget corporate prepotency, doing it all on marginal gains and because, of course, Brits do it better, blah, blah, blah. The reason why there has been so much animosity toward Skybots, is because they have tried to make themselves come across as the paladins of clean cycling (a model of excellence), while imposing an imperialist strategy that has merely made their hypocrisy intolerable. The truth is that they have only succeeded in doping better than all the rest.

 

[Papparrazzi]

Re: Sky

The Guys on Off the Ball said earlier that it had come out that Sky had previously bought Flumicil from regular pharmacies in Europe, & thereby shot holes in their own BS story that they needed the contents of the jiffybag, because they couldn't trust Flumicil bought anywhere but in the UK.

Has anyone heard this confirmed before ?

Sapstead said at CSC it was unlicensed at the time in UK and that TeamGB/Sky obtained it from two outlets in Europe, one in Germany and one in Switzerland. It 'was readily available on the doorstep (in France)', but reason for Simon Cope courier service was that Freeman said he was unsure of his prescription rights in France, and he wanted to be 100% sure of the concentration of the Flumicil he was using because strength can vary abroad. :lol:

 

[King Boonen]

I've started a new thread specifically for the CMS discussion as it's split across lots at the moment. It's here:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=32547

 

[DanielSong39]

Re: Sky

Though I root against Team Sky, I don't really want to see them disbanded. Heck, I don't even want them to stop doping, because the drop-off would be too blatant. But there are a few things I would like to see:

- Stop using motors. It's one thing to see Chris Froome kill it, it's another to see the dude cruise home on a motorbike aided by 2-3 other motorbikers. The former is fun to see (though we know it's dope-aided), the latter is not that fun. It's funny the first couple of times but the novelty wore off long ago.
- Cut out the bogus PR. Look, we know that they have great riders with great training programs with great dope and great motors. All this "marginal gains" stuff is just an insult.
- Lose once in a while. It's OK to win and to have a target on your back. But sometimes you just have to go easy on the motors and let the other guy win if they're stronger. The 2016 Vuelta was amusing for that reason. One of these years they should do that in a Tour.
- Get rid of the stupid in-race politics. The stage-neutralization at Ventoux was an absolute disgrace, along with the autobus in Stage 15 of the Vuelta. They should at least make a new rule disqualifying the lowest 20% of the field if more than 20% of the field is in an autobus that misses the time cut-off.

Let's see what 2017 brings, but I don't think that's too much to ask for. If Team Sky lays low with the bogus PR and their racing is more similar to the doped-up racing we're used to seeing - well, I'll still root against them, but no hard feelings if they win.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around.

Oh yeah I'm confident in the teams credibility no doubt.

You asked where the sky fans were?

I'm still looking for the clinic 12 - DQ - Betsy A. a few others. I can understand how they are not hammering away at this sky stuff. Or even Greg L. I guess greg will says something soon.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around.

Oh yeah I'm confident in the teams credibility no doubt.

You asked where the sky fans were?

I'm still looking for the clinic 12 - DQ - Betsy A. a few others. I can understand how they are not hammering away at this sky stuff. Or even Greg L. I guess greg will says something soon.

Very true, although people "dedicated to anti-doping" have become very silent.

 

[yaco]

Re:

BBC Radio Five Live discussion right now: Journalist just said he understands that Wiggins has been officially questioned over this too. Was that in private or something? Who knows. Anyway apparently he just said he took Flumicil at the time but no idea what was in the jiffy bag.

UKAD apparently have spent over 1000 man hours investigating this...and as we know still not one person can clarify what was in the infamous jiffy. I think I'd like to see UKAD given more investigative power. Sporting fraud, accounting fraud, liaise with police with threat of criminal charges etc.

Wiggins was interviewed by UKAD - I have no problem with Wiggin's answer - You visit your GP and they give you an injection for penicillin - Unless you test the substance at the time, you accept the doctor gave you penicillin.

 

[yaco]

My guess is that 2 or 3 Sky riders who come off contract in 2017 ( riders Sky want to retain ) will move onto greener pastures.

 

[blackcat]

no one see the perverse irony about the MPs grilling Sky factotums in parliament and inquiries?

so... lets get this straight, they revel in the BoJo 2012 London Olympics and content to fly the flag of nationalism and usher in all the gold medals?

So they cheer and applaud(the politicians get their faces on podiums and rostrums like Bojo), and constituents vote them back in. And these are MPs, politicians, they have done the hard graft and gladhanding of numbers politiking and getting pre-selected then getting elected. They. Know. Where. The. Bodies. Are. Buried.

Now, when they see the tide shifting, they choose to switch sides. manifest hypocrisy.

The devil's advocate in me, actually sees the validity to support Froome, to support Wiggins, to support Brailsford, to support Bruyneel. to support Lance. Why?

Am I being hypocritical when I have potted them? Or have I just brought some Wildean drollery to some absurd imbroglio.

here is the problem, we are drilled into us, thru pedagogy and youth in the west, personal freedoms. Our autonomy, our personal property rights. When in fact, most of us have zero autonomy as Milgram demonstrated.

The entire system is predicated on suspension of disbelief. So, I may be contradicting myself here, (wrt system v personal) but, if there was this agency, you have willing sublimated your agency to believe in Lance, to believe in Nike, to believe in Sky, to believe in Froome, to believe in marginal gains, to believe in Walsh. But Walsh may be another hypocrite, or you are just too willing to believe he took down Lance and he ghosts Froome's autobiography, and Froome wrestles anacondas, and feeds them rabbits from the local kindergarten across the road.

or was it guinea pigs. heck, I aint my own New Yorker fact checking dep't am I.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Fully expect Freeman to claim he forgets what was in Jiffy bag and lost laptop to check his records.

Hope Freeman gets struck off, but i doubt it. Dr Bonar didn't.

But the investigation has been very weak, if at all. MPs have been the ones making ground. As usual outside forces are the ones doing the work of Anit-doping Authorities.

Sport is beyond fixing.

UKAD had little to no interest in investigating, it's only once it got to the CMS level they were forced to pretend they were doing something. You can clearly see Brailsford & co. have been running rings around UKAD for years.

Totally.

It was fascinating to see how uncomfortable Sapstead seemed to be whilst having to suggest wrongdoing by Team Sky.
That UKAD still haven't checked whether Freeman went to the police when his laptop was stolen is hilarious.
Sapstead had to invoke Interpol to make it seem like they're actually doing something.

Everything in her body language suggested a deeply rooted "We shall not step on any toes" attitude at UKAD.

UKAD need a pitbull, not a lapdog, running things.

She was. She finds a treasure trove of cortisone but decides against pursuing it because she didn't want to change the scope of the investigation. You could tell for years, she and Brailsford are chums. He only reason this got to where it did, was the non-Investgation of Bonor and handing over information to the GMC and the CMS Committee.

Indeed.
Anyone praising Sapstead is not seeing the timeline and asking the question: since when did she knew things were not above board?

Sapstead and UKAD were going to wrap this up in December and then suddenly Nicole Cooke ripped Brailsford & BC/Sky apart in that Guardian article.
To my understanding that's when Sapstead got the invite from Damian Collins and suddenly Sapstead was fighting for her job. Sapstead knew it was either her job or put BC/Sky in the spotlight and she went with the latter.
And so she had to send out the team to get serious. That generated the late night session in manchester with Freeman throwing his computer in the dumpster somewhere.
Anyway, this is a 6 months investigation but it still appears like they have only completed the first two weeks of it.

You are naive - UKAD needs to find bona-fide evidence to charge anyone from Sky - You can't charge people on the hearsay of a whistle-blower.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around.

I agree on your sentiment towards the fans who have genuinely backed Team Sky.

However surely your comment about the other 'great riders' who are not involved in 2016/17 is tongue in cheek.

Sapstead didn't book end what UKAD found in terms of a timescale i.e. after 2014 and all riders not connected with Freeman are riding clean and without an 'out of competition PED regime'.

She found that that there was stockpiling of high potency Corticosteroids suggestive of it being for more than one rider.

Don't get me wrong I am all for innocent until proven guilty but this is far from the slam dunk, "pin it all on Freeman/Cope/Wiggins" the rest of us are home scot free. All of Sky and British Cycling are tarnished by this and with so many questions still unanswered, making the separation between wrongdoers and non wrongdoers is extremely premature indeed.

Such a presumption is based on wishful thinking which the history of this sport has proved is massively misguided.

What this suggests is that BC had a pile of cortico-steroids to possibly use the TUE route, which in itself, is making a mockery of the advised process behind the issuing of TUES or even worse BC are using cortico steroids willy nilly - Actually these lastest revelations cast a bigger pall over British Cycling.

 

[blackcat]

oh well.

I was proven correct peeps.

but even the Skybots and the empire crew knew.

they know that Froome used the motor. I aint telling them anything. I was never telling anyone anything they did not already know.

I just wanted to say, the emperor has no clothes, in a Wildean drollery mien.

 

[blackcat]

leicester city fc

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

no one see the perverse irony about the MPs grilling Sky factotums in parliament and inquiries?

so... lets get this straight, they revel in the BoJo 2012 London Olympics and content to fly the flag of nationalism and usher in all the gold medals?

So they cheer and applaud(the politicians get their faces on podiums and rostrums like Bojo), and constituents vote them back in. And these are MPs, politicians, they have done the hard graft and gladhanding of numbers politiking and getting pre-selected then getting elected. They. Know. Where. The. Bodies. Are. Buried.

Now, when they see the tide shifting, they choose to switch sides. manifest hypocrisy.

The devil's advocate in me, actually sees the validity to support Froome, to support Wiggins, to support Brailsford, to support Bruyneel. to support Lance. Why?

Am I being hypocritical when I have potted them? Or have I just brought some Wildean drollery to some absurd imbroglio.

here is the problem, we are drilled into us, thru pedagogy and youth in the west, personal freedoms. Our autonomy, our personal property rights. When in fact, most of us have zero autonomy as Milgram demonstrated.

The entire system is predicated on suspension of disbelief. So, I may be contradicting myself here, (wrt system v personal) but, if there was this agency, you have willing sublimated your agency to believe in Lance, to believe in Nike, to believe in Sky, to believe in Froome, to believe in marginal gains, to believe in Walsh. But Walsh may be another hypocrite, or you are just too willing to believe he took down Lance and he ghosts Froome's autobiography, and Froome wrestles anacondas, and feeds them rabbits from the local kindergarten across the road.

or was it guinea pigs. heck, I aint my own New Yorker fact checking dep't am I.

Great post. Welcome back

I disagree with support for the athletes you listed although Froome has not taken a lippy attitude to people who questioned him nor has he dished out the insults ( his wife does it for 2 so maybe that's why) but when you walk(ride) the path they have taken and adopt 'phuck you' attitude to fans, well when you get caught the 'phuck you' comes back and bites hard.

If the riders are not aware they are near the bottom of the food chain in the scheme of things, MPs being near the top, sorry but thems is the choices.

Indurain won 5 in a row and kept his gob shut and has no difficulties. Evans, Sastre and others 2 even though their are and have been questions.

Wiggins today getting stroppy with a BBC film crew was ridiculous. Getting 2 people to start pushing a film crew around only cements his guilt. He should have given a press conference a long time ago, but he has ran for cover. Now threatening he media, what a joke. How many books has he done? And using the media sell his books with interviews.........no support for Wiggins.

 

[blackcat]

also, if folks reckon the secret is corticosteroids to the wins, it aint.

or to the weight loss.

corticosteroids were the best PEDs before the major O2 vector drugs supercharged the aerobic system. They have always been around.

Riis could have always lost more weight. Ullrich could have lost the weight.

the weightloss is from the peptides, like lipotropin, and other SARMs that renders the tissue from the athlete, all non-functional tissue, that is why they can have the massive quads, yet sunken gaunt cheeks of androgenous male models, or female models with eating disorders.

But unlike a model with anorexia, the sunken cheek look, still has quality red-tissue muscle on the face, even tho cheeks are sunken.

This should not occur. There should be a rule-of-thumb, red and white tissue, should not be topical location. caveat: you will be able to tell what sports that athletes do in the olympic village by assessing the shape of their physique. But they should not have weightlifter quads, and sunken cheeks.

So, all the cortisone family steroids, the catabolic steroids, they are not the reason the Brits are winning. It is a systemised coordinated strategy, logistics, medicine, all of it, mapped off the USPS model, that won them gold/yellow jerseys. Plus the cutting edge current go-to PEDs with the tried-and-tested O2 techniques for the aerobic system. And Rupert's money. Rupert's money.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

glad you came back to the forum blackcat

 

[blackcat]

So Rupert has not gone before the Parliament to approve his bid for full control of Sky Broadcasting like he was in the midst of last time with Rebekah Brooks. I normally give her two k's and call her Rebekkah, she could drop the h.

And he needs the EU's assent too, or does this only apply if they have not officially/formally withdrawn Brexit?

But how is this, it is playing out just like last time with phone hacking. And this is now, where Brailsford and British Cycling, have made the rod for their own back. This play getting 20 million GBP per year for the cycling project, looked a great move, they had the media to protect them and move the domestic support. See how cycling became mainstream in under a decade because of the Brailsford project.

But News Corp and News Limited had the phone hacking.

Rupert could get parliament to pass(approve) his bid for full control of Sky. (this could be neither here nor there)

Sky goes on their way to winning Tour de Frances. Their riders win gold medals. Sky Broadcast the company basks in reflected glory and positive publicity, symbiosis and gestalt occurs, Wiggins and Froome get million pound pre-sale book deals, athletes and managers are knighted... everyone is happy. But, like Helmut Roole says 'it is all based on a lie'.

Lance did not know when to fold his cards, and kept on pushing, and asking for a bigger slice, and more... he could have been content with 7 jerseys, and 200million US$.

Sky have also poked their head above the parapet. pushing marginal gains down our throat. Having a willing empire crew who will cheerfully sublimate autonomy to back their horse.

Rupert puts in his final piece-de-resistance on his career, full control of Sky, he always overbids on assets he sees as status mastheads like NYTimes and WSJ, the Sulzberger family rebuffs him at NYT, he bids too much at WSJ.

Left-wing media no longer willing to play the nationalist game they did in 2012 when the gold medals are flowing and they channeled their inner empire crew. Rupert needs to face Parliament and the EU media assets committee to approve his bid for full control of Sky.

left wing media smell blood. politicians see their face can get traction in the press and nightly tv broadcasts on channel 4 and the beeb.

now, my caveat, just like Rebekkah Brooks, with the extra k,
my caveat, how much credit does Rupert get for the cycling operation of TeamSky, their wins, for 2012 Olympics, and now, inversely, how much criticism can he cop, for Sky and fluimecil or kenacort?

So, the fact that News are back before the EU media asset committee, and the British Parliament media approvals board... should this really have anything to do with it. It is Team Sky Cycling. All Rupe seeks is News Ltd, going from 46 poh-cent to 100 poh-cent. Nothing involving Brailsford, fluimecil, and Wiggins.

or does it?

Well, this is my thesis. Rupert does not want any poor press and publicity. This is the death knell for TeamSky. They are screwed (sorry IronDan) They stuffed with the News Ltd phone hacking, Rupert was persona non grata, no one in power now needs an excuse to put in the boots to anything he is associated with. even tenuous association it may be.

He wont get full control of Sky Broadcasting.

there will be repercussions

He will have to content himself to Roger Ailes getting sexual harassment suites at Fox and Jerry Hall erection dysfunction.

and he will blame Brailsford and Wiggins. Cos this is how Rupert rolls, has always acted.

 

[sniper]

Re:

glad you came back to the forum blackcat

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around.

Oh yeah I'm confident in the teams credibility no doubt.

You asked where the sky fans were?

I'm still looking for the clinic 12 - DQ - Betsy A. a few others. I can understand how they are not hammering away at this sky stuff. Or even Greg L. I guess greg will says something soon.

#Clinic12 #ftw hashtags

JV should know, dont poke the bear.

The west should know, dont poke the Fancy Bears plural and singular.

We are a dozen, we are multitude, we once followed Jesus, now we follow anti-doping and Poe's law.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

My guess is that 2 or 3 Sky riders who come off contract in 2017 ( riders Sky want to retain ) will move onto greener pastures.

Kwiatkowski
G.Thomas
Kennaugh
Stannard
Landa
Kiryenka

 

[aphronesis]

@cat, have to keep the h to offset the illiteracy of the double k. You know that.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

@cat, have to keep the h to offset the illiteracy of the double k. You know that.

yeah, Murdoch has this inverse oedipus with rebekkah, just like donald trump and ivanka. but they have not yet concieved their oedipus peccadilloes. atleast, not that i am aware of.

it is the auburn hair. rupert needed one of jagger's ex jerry hall to put him right, could not be cuckolded to old man gluteus blair.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Sky

wtf Blackcat what ya talkin ´bout?