Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Jimsnchz]

Henao pulled last year and sidelined for blood values, by Sky. JTL, Fancy Bear TUE's, Froome inhaler during a race, Wiggins, Freeman, Brailsfords stories, Edmondson. Wow, just wow. All these things add up. But the most crazy thing to me was the Froome/Porte ride up AX3 a few years ago. That was just insane and not normal.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

I reckon all of that is a 'stretch' to be fair. Pure speculation really. Sounds a bit like an orchestrated one person conspiracy theory, but maybe that's misreading your point.

Is that not a distraction from the reality of everything that's happened since?

(For the sake of clarity, my use of the word 'backstabbing' was accompanied by the qualifying words if, seems, perhaps plus question marks, all of which were very deliberate, not casual. Maybe that was still ambiguous of me, but either way, I wouldn't personally subscribe to your subsequent theory).

Everything that's happened since? With regards to Brailsford's initial comments to Lawton, I'm assuming DB was aware at the time of speaking to him that Sky weren't going to be able to disprove the allegation due to the stolen laptop and the lost medical records. So he tried to fob Lawton off, knowing that it wouldn't exactly look great that the doctor of their star rider hadn't used the drop box system like every other doctor on the team had managed to do. By the way, Freeman's failure to have done that doesn't break any GMC guidelines. That's a red herring.

As for the subsequent lack of clarity from Sky/British cycling you have to remember that they were told by UKAD not to discuss or comment on the case. We don't actually know when UKAD were first made aware that it was Fluimucil in the jiffy bag. And even if it did take some time for Freeman to notify UKAD that Fluimucil was the medication administered to Wiggins, is that really surprising considering it was an innocuous substance treated some five and a half years beforehand and especially considering he had no records available to show himself what it was!?

As for conspiracy theory, what is not in any doubt is that someone who either works for or is heavily involved in British Cycling has been consistently leaking information to Matt Lawton of the Daily Mail for the last couple of years. That is plainly obvious. The most recent example was just a couple of days ago when the draft report was leaked to him. Previous to that you've had the Lizzie Deignan missed tests, the Simon Yates positive test, the equipment being sold off on the black market, the Rio bikes not being ready in time and a whole host of other stories. Of course this same source at British Cycling, whether it's a board member or somebody further down the food chain like a PA, press officer or a medical assistant, would have been perfectly positioned to learn about both of the following details.

1) The package itself. The Manchester Velodrome is not a big place and not many people work there. I've had a meeting there myself and from my experience if there were more than a few dozen staff working there on a daily basis I'd be surprised. So Simon Cope shows up to pick up a package assembled by the physio, Phil Burt. That is exactly the kind of detail I would expect Lawton's mole to either know about directly or be informed about by somebody else second hand.

2) Freeman's stolen laptop and his non-use of the drop box system. Again, this is exactly the kind of detail that would feed back to somebody working at the Velodrome in Manchester.

If anything, the most incredible aspect of all of this story surrounding the jiffy bag is that the mole at British Cycling who has been consistently leaking information to Matt Lawton of the Daily Mail, rather vindictively I might add (riders like Yates are entitled to due process as much as anyone else), has still yet to be bloody uncovered!

JRanton, to be honest I don't know how to address your points. They seem to be based around a 'vindictive mole' theory, someone that's made all of this up to spite Sky and Gollum. It's speculation, and it ignores everything directly from Sky and Gollum since the leak, including the Select Committee evidence etc.

It seems that people, basing their opinion on the complete picture, have concluded that Sky fail very badly on a balance of probability test. That's the only logical test that can be applied here, and all the evidence must be considered as a whole. Maybe the 'mole' is vindictive, who knows, but it seems a bit irrelevant really. The direct evidence subsequent to the original leak is what matters now, and I think it's been quite damning.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

I haven't really followed this case, but who cares about this talentless neo-pro who injected himself with vitamins??

Again, you could fairly argue that it shows Sky in a good light (like the JTL case). A fellow team sky rider reported it and even went to the trouble of taking photographic evidence! Doesn't exactly scream widespread team doping culture to me. Quite the opposite in fact.

This is completely inane. Do you know if any team in history which doped all of its 30+ riders? No, they had a core group who doped whilst the rest were panne e aqua. The fact that Sky were happy not to foster and protect a young British rider and fuel him up on a powerful highly addictive pain killer does not show Sky in a good light. It shows them to be complete inept if not criminally negligent for endnaging the health of one of their employees.

Disgusting.

To the bolded, yes, it reflects extremely badly indeed on Sky.
Employers neglect of duty of care is serious.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

I wonder. It all seems rather convenient that the 'best interest of the rider' happily coincides with 'the best interest of Sky'. Doesn't this just open up the 'he broke the rules but he wasn't well' for taking more serious PEDS? Rules / policies are not there for Team Sky to choose to follow. They are there to follow or face sanction. And if they were conscious of the kids mental health (yeah - Ellingworth really sounds the caring type) - couldn't they have approached TPTB and asked for advice?

If it'd been me, I think I'd have reported it but with the context, expressing my concerns about his welfare and requesting that actions takes account of this. Would his name necessarily have been released or have been of interest at the time? I doubt it. if he'd even tried to tell this story before whether it would have got any air time? Almost certainly not - kid no one has heard of who broke the rules by injecting vitamins'.

Where did i hear that Tramadol was handed about like sweeties? was that JTL? This certainly suggests it was freel available.

It's difficult to know isn't. The rider was chronically depressed, possibly suicidal, by his own admission. People are extremely vulnerable in that condition. Steve Peters, though he gets mocked for his 'inner chimp' stuff, is an extremely experienced psychiatrist with years of experience with very vulnerable people. It's possible he made his best, honest judgement call on how to deal with it. It's tempting now to interpret everything in the light of duplicitous self-serving Sky-Gollum behaviour, but it's maybe not valid here.

Personally I'm more interested in the fact that his mental health problems hadn't been picked up much earlier, that basic employee care maybe wasn't as much a constant priority as it should've been, and the wider context of pressure and expectation within pro-cycling. Mental health problems are a big issue in pro sport. But this probably isn't the thread for wider context, Sky specific as it is an' all that.

I agree, but only up to a point. I'm not sure I believe that Josh E. said he hadn't used them. He described in pretty good detail on that clip exactly what it was like and what he felt. Do you think in his fragile mental state he would have been able to dissemble, hide track marks, etc etc. etc in the face of an experience psychiatrist who's been around the block? Surely Peters, given his experience, would have known straight away that he was lying - it is, after all, the MO of every (drug) abuser to lie and lie and lie. Again, it sounds all too convenient. But equally, it makes a better and more saleable story for Sky to have covered up, so there's room for doubt. But IMO Peters, even if he were lied to, should have known it was a lie.

And yes, it's clear that the culture fostered was not supportive and Ellingworth's quotes just reek of a horrible, pressure cooker, get on or get out kind of environment. Not the environment to foster an anti-doping ethos. And not one which you'd hope a young man with little life experience, a lot of pressure and a lot of temptation would find himself in.

Two things interest me: 1. Italy. Why 'drive to Italy'. How did he know to go to Italy? Why not go shopping for legal vitamins and stuff for injecting in France? Even if Nice is near the border, it still seems very very peculiar. Does the kid speak Italian? How the hell did he know what to ask for if not? In my experience (I speak reasonable Italian and I've lived in Italy for 4 months and I wouldn't be able to ask for this stuff), Italians do not have anything like the level of English that the French do, and if I had to go to a chemist in a foreign country, I'd bet on being able to get what I was after in Nice versus Ventimiglia or whereever. Nice is also a waaaaaay bigger city than any of the local Italian places...hence much more likely to have what you want over the counter.

2. How did this get out. Was it Josh E. seeing the opportunity and selling his story whilst the going was good - the narrative is perfect for him to make the most dough out of it. OR was it someone perhaps hinting to a journo. that they might want to talk to an ex-Sky rider...which means someone is really out to bring Sky, or SDB, down. If the latter, I don't think they'll stop until SDB resigns. If more stuff comes out, I think it's clear its a concerted campaign with a specific objective. I only hope they succeed!

I agree with most of that, aside from the questions around how and why this has come out - I don't really have an opinion on that part, but agree in hoping Gollum is brought down.

Good points regarding why Italy, it would seem he's had help/support getting this stuff.

And as you say, when you hear Edmondson speak it's very clear that he did really take the injections. It's possible Peters made an honest judgement at the time on how to deal with...but is now lying about the details because of the obvious implications. As you know life is often messy and unpredictable, it's possible he made an honest decision at the time but now finds himself in a compromised position. But it's all speculation isn't it.

The key point for me is the vulnerable position the rider was in and how and why it got that far without anyone in the team noticing. It shouts of neglect and exploitation to me. (and Ellingworth's subsequent language reflects that)

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Sky

Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.

Who told Josh what to buy and do? Vitamins? Really?

2013 tour of Britain - Josh got Tramadol from "race doctor", Wiggo was to get TUE from Dr Freeman but was stopped by "changed password"(! - http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...an-applying-fourth-bradley-wiggins-tue-318094 )

 

[MartinGT]

Re: Sky

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04x2lzh

For people who want to lisetn.

 

[Electress]

Re: Sky

Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.

In the immortal words of Vicky Pollard. 'Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but...'

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Sky

Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.

Peters is more cynical than that as he plays both sides of the argument

As you say, Peters rebuts Edmondson's claim that he injected hence there was no therefore reason for Sky to tell the authorities about a needle violation. This is the latest lie dreamed up by Sky to deflect the heat

But Peters also says Edmondson' mental state was prioritised over following the rules which is irrelevant if there's no needle violation as there's no need to tell the authorities

Also worth noting that only a couple of days ago Sky refused on medical confidentiality grounds a request by the MPs to say which other Sky riders have Freeman inspired gaps in their medical records during the period when the Kenalog stockpile was mysteriously disappearing from the Manchester pharmacy. Two days later medical confidentiality goes out the window and Peters is on the BBC News discussing Edmondson's mental health issues in some detail

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

you failed to recognise, that after the USSR and GDR, the depth fell away on the track, the classy riders from the east, like Eki, came across to the road from the track, lots of other Soviet state riders, who would have contested the best riders like Bartko, Mcgee, Wiggins, went to the road. A rider like Raimondas Rumsas would have probably pumped everyone on the track. You can be small, lean, and hammer an IP and TP, see the height/weight of Peter Kennaugh and Jack Bobridge. Kittel and Greipel, would have pumped the Brits, think about Degenkolb, Gretsch, Greipel, Kittel, Martin, they would have lapped the Australians and the Brits and the Kiwis. Especially if Heiko was coaching them.

the money that went into the British track program, was enough for them to dominate the track

caveat: the communist system had a sports talent ID program and sports schools, for their propaganda, effectively equivalent resources that the UK system now funnels.

so, if we view it thru this lens, we can ascertain that the medals and victories, are merely an intersection of economic resources, and catchment of potential athletes(talent pool)

I'm unsure why you've responded to me with this, as you seen to be focussed on anglophone success on the track and I haven't made any assessment of why the anglophone countries have done well on the track or discussed the success of GB cycling's track programme. Diversification applies to all countries competing on the track. I don't disagree that BC have thrown huge amounts of money at a sport where they saw that money equals medals, but GBs success in the IP predates national lottery funding with Hugh Porter, Tony Doyle, Colin Sturgess, Shaun Wallace, Graeme Obree and Chris Boardman all winning multiple medals (Did Boardman receive funding?). I simply highlighted the fact that, when the quote that was being discussed was made, there was ample evidence that GT winners could also be good IP riders. It doesn't mean every good IP rider can win a GT, it just shows the two are certainly not mutually exclusive.

Your comment about the USSR and GDR riders moving away from the track so the depth was removed from the field is confusing when we are discussing the IP, because the USSR won exactly 1 medal in the WC IP, a gold in 1990. Gintautas Umaras won gold at the Olympics in 1988 and I believe that is their only medal in the IP. I don't think the GDR have ever won an IP medal at the WC or the Olympics, and the GDR rank below Sweden in terms of total medals won at the Olympics. The USSR and GDR dominated the medal tables twice, once in 1980 (and it should be obvious why) and in 1988. While they performed well from about 1972 onwards, this is only in the Olympics, not the WC, does not impact the period of time where the quote came from and does not seem to apply to the IP.

The assumption that the current crop of German riders would easily win the TP/IP is simply that, assumption and I don't think bears up to scrutiny. Cavendish could not force his way into the TP squad and he is a more likely candidate than both Kittel and Greipel. Martin, Gretsch and Degenkolb I think could certainly have been/might be good track riders, but track riding in Germany has always been reasonably strong and after the Ullrich affair and German TVs boycott of the TdF I think that if they were going to succeed massively on the track then they would have gone there. I'm sure that, if they wanted to, guys like Martin and Cancellara could have been very, very good IP riders, as could GT winners such as Contador, Evans, Indurain possibly even Basso etc.


If you are going to bring up the break up of the USSR and GDR then you also need to take into account the history of the sport in every country that competes. You need to consider the ban on road racing in the UK that stifled the scene for many years, you need to consider the upheaval in China and their current politics that may be affecting possible riders. You need to consider that cycling is now much more global and more easily accessible which has lead to a resurgence of the Colombian riders. We are finally starting to see some African riders come through the ranks (not the rich, white colonists). Track cycling is prohibitively expensive for many countries that may or may not be able to compete and road cycling can be as well. It all has an effect on the talent pool in all forms of the sport and makes assessment of a persons success against all possible outcomes pretty much impossible. It's why people always say you can only beat who is in front of you.


This has all gone off at a tangent though. So to bring it back to the very original point, and the only point that I, or in fact fmk_rol, was trying to make and that I added a bit more to, there is ample historical precedent to show that people who perform well in the IP can also win GTs, in some cases multiple GTs. This doesn't negate doping at all, we know many of those riders who have done both doped, but it doesn't mean that some super secret extra-strength doping is necessarily required for a rider to make the change (it also doesn't preclude that).

 

[King Boonen]

Just picking up on all this. More Obfuscation by getting people to admit to little indiscretions while ignoring the big ones. How's about they produce the relevant documentation to show which riders got triamcinolone injections, the UCI documents that were submitted as required and the financial documents to show that riders who were not part of the GB program who were treated were paid for by Team Sky (if the final part is applicable).

On a more general point this is just getting ridiculous. Constant lies, retractions, new lies, crazy explanations and now admissions and cover ups coming out and yet we are still expected to believe and trust them? Well, Bikeradar do...

 

[Cycle Chic]

Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....

He reported him to management, that opens up loads of possible explanations. Maybe the team is dirty but the team mate wasn't. Maybe the team mat knew it wasn't part of the team program and that it made the team more likely to be exposed. Maybe the team mate and the team are clean and he really was reporting doping. Who knows, too many possibilities to say it doesn't add up.

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Sky

Not doping but Sky related ... fit and proper ?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39292653
Culture Secretary Karen Bradley has asked regulators to examine Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox's takeover bid for Sky.

Labour MP David Winnick was among those to object to the deal. He said there was no "vendetta" against Mr Murdoch but that "it would be simply unacceptable that the amount of media ownership he already controls should be increased."

Part of Ofcom's investigation will include whether Sky's potential new owners are "fit and proper". Rupert Murdoch and Lachlan Murdoch are both joint chairmen of 21st Century Fox and News Corp while James Murdoch is chief executive of Fox
...
Rupert Murdoch has tried before to take full control of Sky. In 2011 News Corp, which owns The Times and The Sun, made an offer but it was abandoned in the wake of the phone hacking scandal.

The case for Rupert Murdoch's previous takeover bid for Sky was undermined by the revelation that the voicemail of the 13 year-old murdered Milly Dowler's had been hacked, by the News of the World, a Murdoch newspaper.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....

Why? Because he wanted to show his teammate was being careless with the team wide use of vitamin injectables. The fact that Sky is very happy to feed a young man with hospital grade highly addictive pain killer and cut him loose when he spiraled into depression tells you all you need to know.

It's adds up very well. They weren't fostering youth they were feeding them drugs.

 

[MartinGT]

Re: Sky

I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.

Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,

Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?

I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.

 

[MartinGT]

The ironic thing, I was told Edmondson was about to sign for Hincaipe's team prior to Sky. Brailsford talked him out of it saying it was a 'dirty name'

 

[thehog]

Re:

The ironic thing, I was told Edmondson was about to sign for Hincaipe's team prior to Sky. Brailsford talked him out of it saying it was a 'dirty name'

Perhaps Brailsford did a Bruyneel and informed other teams not to hire Josh, the statements by Ellington wouod not have helped.

Also good understanding why the Yates brothers didn't go to Sky. Their progression has been more tempered (positive tests aside!).

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Edmonsdson, semi confession. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39293763, he did it without team knowledge, but they allegedly tried to keep it quiet.

Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.

Another profound example of transparency.

He admits himself he was depressed. Some things are best left unreported. The press would have gone to town on it with no regard for the rider's wellbeing.

Recently they would, but not in 2013 and 2014 when the press were right behind Sky. Who were the journalists writing stories that were querying what Sky were doing? Kimmage and .............?

None of this information was available to the press in 2013 or 2014. That's why they've gone after Sky now. The Fancy Bears hacking took place and then an allegation was made which Sky haven't been able to adequately refute.

The press never went looking. It was obvious Sky were not clean. Wiggins and Froome, 2 domestiques winning GTs at late career ages = not normal. British sports journos jumped on a band wagon in a rush to get book deals.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Edmonsdson, semi confession. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39293763, he did it without team knowledge, but they allegedly tried to keep it quiet.

Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.

Another profound example of transparency.

Steve Peters had a duty of care to him as a rider and as it sounds a patient that for him takes priority and it always should over anti doping rules.

That seems right to me - Strangest think about the Sky/BC issue is the only country taking it seriously is the UK - It barely passes a mention in the European and world media.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Sky covered up doping. Breaks WADA code for complicity.

I've been wondering about this.
Since the no needles policy is a UCI thing it doesn't come under the WADA code right?

That's my understanding - It's a rule made by a sport's governing body in this case the UCI.

 

[yaco]

There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.

 

[yaco]

Re: Sky

I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.

Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,

Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?

I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.

A valid question - Of course ex Sky/BC employees will have the media on the doorstep every day, as this is how the media work -You have to wonder if there is some kind of direct or indirect financial motivation.

 

[BYOP88]

Re:

There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.

Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.

Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.

the public, like Toto, just keep tugging at the damn curtain...

 

[rick james]

Re:

Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....

that's rather sad that you're waiting on Diggers opinion