Henao pulled last year and sidelined for blood values, by Sky. JTL, Fancy Bear TUE's, Froome inhaler during a race, Wiggins, Freeman, Brailsfords stories, Edmondson. Wow, just wow. All these things add up. But the most crazy thing to me was the Froome/Porte ride up AX3 a few years ago. That was just insane and not normal.
Re: Re:
JRanton, to be honest I don't know how to address your points. They seem to be based around a 'vindictive mole' theory, someone that's made all of this up to spite Sky and Gollum. It's speculation, and it ignores everything directly from Sky and Gollum since the leak, including the Select Committee evidence etc.
It seems that people, basing their opinion on the complete picture, have concluded that Sky fail very badly on a balance of probability test. That's the only logical test that can be applied here, and all the evidence must be considered as a whole. Maybe the 'mole' is vindictive, who knows, but it seems a bit irrelevant really. The direct evidence subsequent to the original leak is what matters now, and I think it's been quite damning.
JRanton said:
JRanton, to be honest I don't know how to address your points. They seem to be based around a 'vindictive mole' theory, someone that's made all of this up to spite Sky and Gollum. It's speculation, and it ignores everything directly from Sky and Gollum since the leak, including the Select Committee evidence etc.
It seems that people, basing their opinion on the complete picture, have concluded that Sky fail very badly on a balance of probability test. That's the only logical test that can be applied here, and all the evidence must be considered as a whole. Maybe the 'mole' is vindictive, who knows, but it seems a bit irrelevant really. The direct evidence subsequent to the original leak is what matters now, and I think it's been quite damning.
Re: Re:
To the bolded, yes, it reflects extremely badly indeed on Sky.
Employers neglect of duty of care is serious.
thehog said:
To the bolded, yes, it reflects extremely badly indeed on Sky.
Employers neglect of duty of care is serious.
Re: Re:
I agree with most of that, aside from the questions around how and why this has come out - I don't really have an opinion on that part, but agree in hoping Gollum is brought down.
Good points regarding why Italy, it would seem he's had help/support getting this stuff.
And as you say, when you hear Edmondson speak it's very clear that he did really take the injections. It's possible Peters made an honest judgement at the time on how to deal with...but is now lying about the details because of the obvious implications. As you know life is often messy and unpredictable, it's possible he made an honest decision at the time but now finds himself in a compromised position. But it's all speculation isn't it.
The key point for me is the vulnerable position the rider was in and how and why it got that far without anyone in the team noticing. It shouts of neglect and exploitation to me. (and Ellingworth's subsequent language reflects that)
Electress said:
I agree with most of that, aside from the questions around how and why this has come out - I don't really have an opinion on that part, but agree in hoping Gollum is brought down.
Good points regarding why Italy, it would seem he's had help/support getting this stuff.
And as you say, when you hear Edmondson speak it's very clear that he did really take the injections. It's possible Peters made an honest judgement at the time on how to deal with...but is now lying about the details because of the obvious implications. As you know life is often messy and unpredictable, it's possible he made an honest decision at the time but now finds himself in a compromised position. But it's all speculation isn't it.
The key point for me is the vulnerable position the rider was in and how and why it got that far without anyone in the team noticing. It shouts of neglect and exploitation to me. (and Ellingworth's subsequent language reflects that)
- Mar 29, 2016
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Re: Sky
Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.
Who told Josh what to buy and do? Vitamins? Really?
2013 tour of Britain - Josh got Tramadol from "race doctor", Wiggo was to get TUE from Dr Freeman but was stopped by "changed password"(! - http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...an-applying-fourth-bradley-wiggins-tue-318094 )
Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.
Who told Josh what to buy and do? Vitamins? Really?
2013 tour of Britain - Josh got Tramadol from "race doctor", Wiggo was to get TUE from Dr Freeman but was stopped by "changed password"(! - http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...an-applying-fourth-bradley-wiggins-tue-318094 )
- Jul 4, 2010
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Re: Sky
Peters is more cynical than that as he plays both sides of the argument
As you say, Peters rebuts Edmondson's claim that he injected hence there was no therefore reason for Sky to tell the authorities about a needle violation. This is the latest lie dreamed up by Sky to deflect the heat
But Peters also says Edmondson' mental state was prioritised over following the rules which is irrelevant if there's no needle violation as there's no need to tell the authorities
Also worth noting that only a couple of days ago Sky refused on medical confidentiality grounds a request by the MPs to say which other Sky riders have Freeman inspired gaps in their medical records during the period when the Kenalog stockpile was mysteriously disappearing from the Manchester pharmacy. Two days later medical confidentiality goes out the window and Peters is on the BBC News discussing Edmondson's mental health issues in some detail
Robert5091 said:
Peters is more cynical than that as he plays both sides of the argument
As you say, Peters rebuts Edmondson's claim that he injected hence there was no therefore reason for Sky to tell the authorities about a needle violation. This is the latest lie dreamed up by Sky to deflect the heat
But Peters also says Edmondson' mental state was prioritised over following the rules which is irrelevant if there's no needle violation as there's no need to tell the authorities
Also worth noting that only a couple of days ago Sky refused on medical confidentiality grounds a request by the MPs to say which other Sky riders have Freeman inspired gaps in their medical records during the period when the Kenalog stockpile was mysteriously disappearing from the Manchester pharmacy. Two days later medical confidentiality goes out the window and Peters is on the BBC News discussing Edmondson's mental health issues in some detail
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re: Re:
I'm unsure why you've responded to me with this, as you seen to be focussed on anglophone success on the track and I haven't made any assessment of why the anglophone countries have done well on the track or discussed the success of GB cycling's track programme. Diversification applies to all countries competing on the track. I don't disagree that BC have thrown huge amounts of money at a sport where they saw that money equals medals, but GBs success in the IP predates national lottery funding with Hugh Porter, Tony Doyle, Colin Sturgess, Shaun Wallace, Graeme Obree and Chris Boardman all winning multiple medals (Did Boardman receive funding?). I simply highlighted the fact that, when the quote that was being discussed was made, there was ample evidence that GT winners could also be good IP riders. It doesn't mean every good IP rider can win a GT, it just shows the two are certainly not mutually exclusive.
Your comment about the USSR and GDR riders moving away from the track so the depth was removed from the field is confusing when we are discussing the IP, because the USSR won exactly 1 medal in the WC IP, a gold in 1990. Gintautas Umaras won gold at the Olympics in 1988 and I believe that is their only medal in the IP. I don't think the GDR have ever won an IP medal at the WC or the Olympics, and the GDR rank below Sweden in terms of total medals won at the Olympics. The USSR and GDR dominated the medal tables twice, once in 1980 (and it should be obvious why) and in 1988. While they performed well from about 1972 onwards, this is only in the Olympics, not the WC, does not impact the period of time where the quote came from and does not seem to apply to the IP.
The assumption that the current crop of German riders would easily win the TP/IP is simply that, assumption and I don't think bears up to scrutiny. Cavendish could not force his way into the TP squad and he is a more likely candidate than both Kittel and Greipel. Martin, Gretsch and Degenkolb I think could certainly have been/might be good track riders, but track riding in Germany has always been reasonably strong and after the Ullrich affair and German TVs boycott of the TdF I think that if they were going to succeed massively on the track then they would have gone there. I'm sure that, if they wanted to, guys like Martin and Cancellara could have been very, very good IP riders, as could GT winners such as Contador, Evans, Indurain possibly even Basso etc.
If you are going to bring up the break up of the USSR and GDR then you also need to take into account the history of the sport in every country that competes. You need to consider the ban on road racing in the UK that stifled the scene for many years, you need to consider the upheaval in China and their current politics that may be affecting possible riders. You need to consider that cycling is now much more global and more easily accessible which has lead to a resurgence of the Colombian riders. We are finally starting to see some African riders come through the ranks (not the rich, white colonists). Track cycling is prohibitively expensive for many countries that may or may not be able to compete and road cycling can be as well. It all has an effect on the talent pool in all forms of the sport and makes assessment of a persons success against all possible outcomes pretty much impossible. It's why people always say you can only beat who is in front of you.
This has all gone off at a tangent though. So to bring it back to the very original point, and the only point that I, or in fact fmk_rol, was trying to make and that I added a bit more to, there is ample historical precedent to show that people who perform well in the IP can also win GTs, in some cases multiple GTs. This doesn't negate doping at all, we know many of those riders who have done both doped, but it doesn't mean that some super secret extra-strength doping is necessarily required for a rider to make the change (it also doesn't preclude that).
blackcat said:
I'm unsure why you've responded to me with this, as you seen to be focussed on anglophone success on the track and I haven't made any assessment of why the anglophone countries have done well on the track or discussed the success of GB cycling's track programme. Diversification applies to all countries competing on the track. I don't disagree that BC have thrown huge amounts of money at a sport where they saw that money equals medals, but GBs success in the IP predates national lottery funding with Hugh Porter, Tony Doyle, Colin Sturgess, Shaun Wallace, Graeme Obree and Chris Boardman all winning multiple medals (Did Boardman receive funding?). I simply highlighted the fact that, when the quote that was being discussed was made, there was ample evidence that GT winners could also be good IP riders. It doesn't mean every good IP rider can win a GT, it just shows the two are certainly not mutually exclusive.
Your comment about the USSR and GDR riders moving away from the track so the depth was removed from the field is confusing when we are discussing the IP, because the USSR won exactly 1 medal in the WC IP, a gold in 1990. Gintautas Umaras won gold at the Olympics in 1988 and I believe that is their only medal in the IP. I don't think the GDR have ever won an IP medal at the WC or the Olympics, and the GDR rank below Sweden in terms of total medals won at the Olympics. The USSR and GDR dominated the medal tables twice, once in 1980 (and it should be obvious why) and in 1988. While they performed well from about 1972 onwards, this is only in the Olympics, not the WC, does not impact the period of time where the quote came from and does not seem to apply to the IP.
The assumption that the current crop of German riders would easily win the TP/IP is simply that, assumption and I don't think bears up to scrutiny. Cavendish could not force his way into the TP squad and he is a more likely candidate than both Kittel and Greipel. Martin, Gretsch and Degenkolb I think could certainly have been/might be good track riders, but track riding in Germany has always been reasonably strong and after the Ullrich affair and German TVs boycott of the TdF I think that if they were going to succeed massively on the track then they would have gone there. I'm sure that, if they wanted to, guys like Martin and Cancellara could have been very, very good IP riders, as could GT winners such as Contador, Evans, Indurain possibly even Basso etc.
If you are going to bring up the break up of the USSR and GDR then you also need to take into account the history of the sport in every country that competes. You need to consider the ban on road racing in the UK that stifled the scene for many years, you need to consider the upheaval in China and their current politics that may be affecting possible riders. You need to consider that cycling is now much more global and more easily accessible which has lead to a resurgence of the Colombian riders. We are finally starting to see some African riders come through the ranks (not the rich, white colonists). Track cycling is prohibitively expensive for many countries that may or may not be able to compete and road cycling can be as well. It all has an effect on the talent pool in all forms of the sport and makes assessment of a persons success against all possible outcomes pretty much impossible. It's why people always say you can only beat who is in front of you.
This has all gone off at a tangent though. So to bring it back to the very original point, and the only point that I, or in fact fmk_rol, was trying to make and that I added a bit more to, there is ample historical precedent to show that people who perform well in the IP can also win GTs, in some cases multiple GTs. This doesn't negate doping at all, we know many of those riders who have done both doped, but it doesn't mean that some super secret extra-strength doping is necessarily required for a rider to make the change (it also doesn't preclude that).
- Jul 25, 2012
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Just picking up on all this. More Obfuscation by getting people to admit to little indiscretions while ignoring the big ones. How's about they produce the relevant documentation to show which riders got triamcinolone injections, the UCI documents that were submitted as required and the financial documents to show that riders who were not part of the GB program who were treated were paid for by Team Sky (if the final part is applicable).
On a more general point this is just getting ridiculous. Constant lies, retractions, new lies, crazy explanations and now admissions and cover ups coming out and yet we are still expected to believe and trust them? Well, Bikeradar do...
On a more general point this is just getting ridiculous. Constant lies, retractions, new lies, crazy explanations and now admissions and cover ups coming out and yet we are still expected to believe and trust them? Well, Bikeradar do...
- Sep 26, 2009
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Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re:
He reported him to management, that opens up loads of possible explanations. Maybe the team is dirty but the team mate wasn't. Maybe the team mat knew it wasn't part of the team program and that it made the team more likely to be exposed. Maybe the team mate and the team are clean and he really was reporting doping. Who knows, too many possibilities to say it doesn't add up.
Cycle Chic said:
He reported him to management, that opens up loads of possible explanations. Maybe the team is dirty but the team mate wasn't. Maybe the team mat knew it wasn't part of the team program and that it made the team more likely to be exposed. Maybe the team mate and the team are clean and he really was reporting doping. Who knows, too many possibilities to say it doesn't add up.
- Mar 29, 2016
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Re: Sky
Not doping but Sky related ... fit and proper ?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39292653
Culture Secretary Karen Bradley has asked regulators to examine Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox's takeover bid for Sky.
Labour MP David Winnick was among those to object to the deal. He said there was no "vendetta" against Mr Murdoch but that "it would be simply unacceptable that the amount of media ownership he already controls should be increased."
Part of Ofcom's investigation will include whether Sky's potential new owners are "fit and proper". Rupert Murdoch and Lachlan Murdoch are both joint chairmen of 21st Century Fox and News Corp while James Murdoch is chief executive of Fox
...
Rupert Murdoch has tried before to take full control of Sky. In 2011 News Corp, which owns The Times and The Sun, made an offer but it was abandoned in the wake of the phone hacking scandal.
The case for Rupert Murdoch's previous takeover bid for Sky was undermined by the revelation that the voicemail of the 13 year-old murdered Milly Dowler's had been hacked, by the News of the World, a Murdoch newspaper.
Not doping but Sky related ... fit and proper ?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39292653
Culture Secretary Karen Bradley has asked regulators to examine Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox's takeover bid for Sky.
Labour MP David Winnick was among those to object to the deal. He said there was no "vendetta" against Mr Murdoch but that "it would be simply unacceptable that the amount of media ownership he already controls should be increased."
Part of Ofcom's investigation will include whether Sky's potential new owners are "fit and proper". Rupert Murdoch and Lachlan Murdoch are both joint chairmen of 21st Century Fox and News Corp while James Murdoch is chief executive of Fox
...
Rupert Murdoch has tried before to take full control of Sky. In 2011 News Corp, which owns The Times and The Sun, made an offer but it was abandoned in the wake of the phone hacking scandal.
The case for Rupert Murdoch's previous takeover bid for Sky was undermined by the revelation that the voicemail of the 13 year-old murdered Milly Dowler's had been hacked, by the News of the World, a Murdoch newspaper.
thehog
BANNED
- Jul 27, 2009
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Re:
Why? Because he wanted to show his teammate was being careless with the team wide use of vitamin injectables. The fact that Sky is very happy to feed a young man with hospital grade highly addictive pain killer and cut him loose when he spiraled into depression tells you all you need to know.
It's adds up very well. They weren't fostering youth they were feeding them drugs.
Cycle Chic said:
Why? Because he wanted to show his teammate was being careless with the team wide use of vitamin injectables. The fact that Sky is very happy to feed a young man with hospital grade highly addictive pain killer and cut him loose when he spiraled into depression tells you all you need to know.
It's adds up very well. They weren't fostering youth they were feeding them drugs.
- Jul 4, 2010
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Re: Sky
I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.
Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,
Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?
I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.
I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.
Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,
Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?
I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.
thehog
BANNED
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Re:
Perhaps Brailsford did a Bruyneel and informed other teams not to hire Josh, the statements by Ellington wouod not have helped.
Also good understanding why the Yates brothers didn't go to Sky. Their progression has been more tempered (positive tests aside!).
MartinGT said:
Perhaps Brailsford did a Bruyneel and informed other teams not to hire Josh, the statements by Ellington wouod not have helped.
Also good understanding why the Yates brothers didn't go to Sky. Their progression has been more tempered (positive tests aside!).
- Aug 12, 2009
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rick james
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