Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Re: Re:

blackcat said:
King Boonen said:
I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.
or gimme andy shleck and i will dope him til an inch of his life and he becomes a tdf winner...

wrt pursuiters... it is 4 minutes of wattage, if you can put out 8watts per kg anaerobic, guimard is right to assume his potential to switch energy systems and win on 21 days and uphill.

if you switch the o2 doping
I think the quote is probably too early to consider O2 doping isn't it?

If it was Guimard we're talking early to mid seventies and if it was Stablinski, or someone else, we're talking late sixties to early seventies. I don't have the book to hand to check when it was or who it was though.

I think it's worth noting that the tour routes then were more favourable to good TTers. Coppi, Bobet, Merckx, Anquetil, Hinault etc. were all very good TTers, as well as good climbers obviously, whereas the climbers seen to get one or two GT titles (Gaul, Bahamontes, Van Impe etc.).
 
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Very true. There was once a thread on this very topic but the bots has it closed down. Wiggins and Bezin are the only two to win a GT. In Wiggins case they not had him jacked up on a program but flattered out the course and extended the ITTs.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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Re:

The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Moser. But yes, the course was tailor-made for him and even received some 'heli-support' in the ITT.
 
Re: Re:

Stingray34 said:
The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Moser. But yes, the course was tailor-made for him and even received some 'heli-support' in the ITT.
Moser had 7 GT top tens over a period of 10 years before he won his GT though...that and a very very solid road career.....beats the hell out of Wiggins rising from the boards in 2009............
 
Feb 16, 2011
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Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
Stingray34 said:
The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Moser. But yes, the course was tailor-made for him and even received some 'heli-support' in the ITT.
Moser had 7 GT top tens over a period of 10 years before he won his GT though...that and a very very solid road career.....beats the hell out of Wiggins rising from the boards in 2009............
Agree. WC on the road, too. In hindsight, Moser went the other direction, from road to track exploits.
 
Oct 10, 2015
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Re:

The Hegelian said:
Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?
Moser was a road rider who won the IP and not the other way around, Coppi is also another GT winner who won an IP WC (2 actually) and Hugo Koblet finished 3rd in Coppi's first IP WC. Can't think of any French riders who fit the criteria
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?
indeed and didn't mean to imply he was clean .....i can still remember the Akam interview when he explained how well he went after eating Moser's Muesli one morning, by mistake :)

ah...simpler times :)

i think even Wiggins might have uspured Mosers winter 83 - Spring 84 period with his 2012....and from where...
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.
Have seen it several places and I'm sure I have a note of it to use somewhere, for the life of me I'm not recalling where right now. Can't even remember who it was said it. But as you show with the names you've listed, there's plenty of riders through history to justify it.
 
Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
The Hegelian said:
Yeah, Moser is a good call. The name certainly doesn't scream out "clean cycling!" - but nonetheless, it's a pretty solid precedent. Two Lombardy's on his palmares too.

Who else? Any Frenchies?
indeed and didn't mean to imply he was clean .....i can still remember the Akam interview when he explained how well he went after eating Moser's Muesli one morning, by mistake :)

ah...simpler times :)

i think even Wiggins might have uspured Mosers winter 83 - Spring 84 period with his 2012....and from where...
Moser's muesli! That's classy. I'd be in for some of that.....
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.

Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.

Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?
 
Re: Re:

The Hegelian said:
King Boonen said:
The Hegelian said:
Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?
No.
 
Feb 21, 2017
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Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):

 
May 26, 2010
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One of Sky's Pravda PR agents has posted this on the tweet machine.

Matthew Syed‏ @matthewsyed 1:55 AM - 15 Mar 2017

Insiders still split on extent of doping. What amazes me is the certainty of those who claim Froome is dirty. Isn't there room for doubt?
"....extent of doping"

So it is being admitted now they doped.

Game over!

Syed is a dumbf**k.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

GraftPunk said:
Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):

lipotropin



when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio about that diet.

the leanness of Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...

Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.

You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.

edit: the first <about> replaced <have>
 
Re: Re:

blackcat said:
GraftPunk said:
Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):

lipotropin



when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio have that diet.

the leannes or Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...

Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.

You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.

It's not losing the weight but "losing the fat".
 
Jul 21, 2016
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Re: Re:

blackcat said:
GraftPunk said:
Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):

lipotropin



when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio have that diet.

the leannes or Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...

Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.

You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.
the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet


What the hell? Am I doing it wrong eating food? Do I need to stick a dirty big tube up my arsenal to go full-marginals?
 
Re:

GraftPunk said:
Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):


"Get that water away from me. It's fattening"
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
King Boonen said:
I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.
Have seen it several places and I'm sure I have a note of it to use somewhere, for the life of me I'm not recalling where right now. Can't even remember who it was said it. But as you show with the names you've listed, there's plenty of riders through history to justify it.
Yep, and I'm sure the quote never mentioned medalists, just good riders.

The Hegelian said:
[quote="King Boonen":ufoc9wa5][quote="The Hegelian":ufoc9wa5]Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.[/quote]

Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.

Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.

Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]

Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.

I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.


As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.

Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
fmk_RoI said:
King Boonen said:
I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.
Have seen it several places and I'm sure I have a note of it to use somewhere, for the life of me I'm not recalling where right now. Can't even remember who it was said it. But as you show with the names you've listed, there's plenty of riders through history to justify it.
Yep, and I'm sure the quote never mentioned medalists, just good riders.

The Hegelian said:
[quote="King Boonen":4xtclsem][quote="The Hegelian":4xtclsem]Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.

Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.

Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]

Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.

I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.


As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.

Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote]

a couple of points (weight notwithstanding)...wiggins rode on the road throughout...you don't hide the road talent that wiggins showed via his 2012 season results in the peloton...perhaps on the track you would never know or if you were a cross rider only...but not in the peloton for the years he was...there was a 'transformation'...and at the moment all we may have is the froome-like.....he lost the fat

(btw same with froome...you don't hide 'near the boundary of human limits physiology' mid-field in the tour of poland)

on weight...do we know fat boy lemond and ullrich's in-season weight fluctuations figures? They were both known to turn up carrying a few pounds....I'm sure lemond won trump (or its successor) carrying a few in maybe 90 or 91? Might be interesting to test the just lost the fat angle via looking at a known engine performing with a few extra pounds?
 

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