Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

I haven't really followed this case, but who cares about this talentless neo-pro who injected himself with vitamins??

Dr Steve Peters apparently.

Yes, Sky had his best interests at heart as they offloaded him to fend for himself and kicked the door closed behind him.

Hmmm, pretty nasty and unnecessary detail and language by Ellingworth there, maybe he's generally a bit of a barsteward.

In terms of sacking the rider though, it maybe needs a bit more context? I mean when was he released, for how long did they try to help him before 'release' (the sack) etc?
It's possible they tried for quite a long time.

Just in the interests of balance an' stuff and so forth and such like...

edit: spelling pedantry

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.

Have seen it several places and I'm sure I have a note of it to use somewhere, for the life of me I'm not recalling where right now. Can't even remember who it was said it. But as you show with the names you've listed, there's plenty of riders through history to justify it.

Yep, and I'm sure the quote never mentioned medalists, just good riders.

[quote="King Boonen":2gbkoajb][quote="The Hegelian":2gbkoajb]Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?

And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?

Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.

TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.

Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.

Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.

Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.

For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]

Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.

I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.


As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.

Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote] you failed to recognise, that after the USSR and GDR, the depth fell away on the track, the classy riders from the east, like Eki, came across to the road from the track, lots of other Soviet state riders, who would have contested the best riders like Bartko, Mcgee, Wiggins, went to the road. A rider like Raimondas Rumsas would have probably pumped everyone on the track. You can be small, lean, and hammer an IP and TP, see the height/weight of Peter Kennaugh and Jack Bobridge. Kittel and Greipel, would have pumped the Brits, think about Degenkolb, Gretsch, Greipel, Kittel, Martin, they would have lapped the Australians and the Brits and the Kiwis. Especially if Heiko was coaching them.

the money that went into the British track program, was enough for them to dominate the track

caveat: the communist system had a sports talent ID program and sports schools, for their propaganda, effectively equivalent resources that the UK system now funnels.

so, if we view it thru this lens, we can ascertain that the medals and victories, are merely an intersection of economic resources, and catchment of potential athletes(talent pool)

 

[carton]

Yeah, that Ellingworth quote really doesn't smack of the gentle letting down of a trouble and depressed young rider you're overly worried about.

 

[BYOP88]

Ellingworth has already started ripping out pictures of Edmondson from cycling magazines/race books.

 

[peloton]

Re:

I haven't really followed this case, but who cares about this talentless neo-pro who injected himself with vitamins??

Key word, injected. That does need needles after all

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

So he cheats, while making no results what so ever and, then doesn't get a contract extension and later blames it all on Sky? I must admit, a little petty, but Sky doesnt look good at all obviously, but this really is nothing compared to everything else, isn't it?

Having heard him interviewed tonight it's a bit hard to ascertain his motivation but reading between the lines, the picture is of rider exploitation, on many levels, though he doesn't ever directly suggest that. If highlighting that is his main motivation it's valid and important to speak about it.

The timing is maybe questionable, but he's a young guy and maybe only now feels he has a voice within the context of the ongoing Sky/BC fiasco.

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Sky

Has somebody spoken to the Parliamentary Investigation, which is why this is now in the press?

 

[Electress]

I wonder. It all seems rather convenient that the 'best interest of the rider' happily coincides with 'the best interest of Sky'. Doesn't this just open up the 'he broke the rules but he wasn't well' for taking more serious PEDS? Rules / policies are not there for Team Sky to choose to follow. They are there to follow or face sanction. And if they were conscious of the kids mental health (yeah - Ellingworth really sounds the caring type) - couldn't they have approached TPTB and asked for advice?

If it'd been me, I think I'd have reported it but with the context, expressing my concerns about his welfare and requesting that actions takes account of this. Would his name necessarily have been released or have been of interest at the time? I doubt it. if he'd even tried to tell this story before whether it would have got any air time? Almost certainly not - kid no one has heard of who broke the rules by injecting vitamins'.

Where did i hear that Tramadol was handed about like sweeties? was that JTL? This certainly suggests it was freel available.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

We've been here before. All that's changed are the lyrics.

Sheryl Crow:

I'm American made, Bud Light, Chevrolet
My momma taught me wrong from right
I was born in the south
Sometimes I have a big mouth
When I see something that I don't like
I gotta say it
We been driving this road
For a mightly long time
Payin' no mind to the signs
Well this neighborhood's changed
It's all been rearranged
We left that change somewhere behind
Slow down, you're gonna crash
Baby you were screamin'
It's a blast, blast, blast
Look out babe you got your blinders on
Everybody's lookin' for a way
To get real gone, real gone
Real Gone
There's a new cat in town
He's got high paid friends
Thinks he's gonna change history
You think you know him so well
Yeah you think he's so swell
But he's just perpetuatin' prophecy
Come on now
Slow down, you're gonna crash
Baby you were screamin'
It's a blast, blast, blast
Look out, you got your blinders on
Everybody's lookin' for a way
To get real gone
Real gone
Real gone
Real gone
Well, you can say what you want
But you can't say it 'round here
'Cause they'll catch you and give you a whippin'
Well I belive I was right
When I said you were wrong
You didn't like the sound of that
Now did ya?
Slow down, you're gonna crash
Baby you were screamin'
It's a blast, blast, blast
Look out, you got your blinders on
Everybody's lookin' for a way
To get real gone
Well here I come, And I'm so not scared
Got my pedal to the metal
Got my hands in the air
Well look out, you take your blinders off
Everybody's lookin' for a way
To get real gone, real gone
Real Gone
Real Gone
Real Gone

 

[AICA ribonucleotide]

Re:

Sky covered up doping. Breaks WADA code for complicity.

I've been wondering about this.
Since the no needles policy is a UCI thing it doesn't come under the WADA code right?

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

I wonder. It all seems rather convenient that the 'best interest of the rider' happily coincides with 'the best interest of Sky'. Doesn't this just open up the 'he broke the rules but he wasn't well' for taking more serious PEDS? Rules / policies are not there for Team Sky to choose to follow. They are there to follow or face sanction. And if they were conscious of the kids mental health (yeah - Ellingworth really sounds the caring type) - couldn't they have approached TPTB and asked for advice?

If it'd been me, I think I'd have reported it but with the context, expressing my concerns about his welfare and requesting that actions takes account of this. Would his name necessarily have been released or have been of interest at the time? I doubt it. if he'd even tried to tell this story before whether it would have got any air time? Almost certainly not - kid no one has heard of who broke the rules by injecting vitamins'.

Where did i hear that Tramadol was handed about like sweeties? was that JTL? This certainly suggests it was freel available.

It's difficult to know isn't. The rider was chronically depressed, possibly suicidal, by his own admission. People are extremely vulnerable in that condition. Steve Peters, though he gets mocked for his 'inner chimp' stuff, is an extremely experienced psychiatrist with years of experience with very vulnerable people. It's possible he made his best, honest judgement call on how to deal with it. It's tempting now to interpret everything in the light of duplicitous self-serving Sky-Gollum behaviour, but it's maybe not valid here.

Personally I'm more interested in the fact that his mental health problems hadn't been picked up much earlier, that basic employee care maybe wasn't as much a constant priority as it should've been, and the wider context of pressure and expectation within pro-cycling. Mental health problems are a big issue in pro sport. But this probably isn't the thread for wider context, Sky specific as it is an' all that.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

Sky covered up doping. Breaks WADA code for complicity.

I've been wondering about this.
Since the no needles policy is a UCI thing it doesn't come under the WADA code right?

It's the complicity that's the breach, isn't it?

 

[AICA ribonucleotide]

Re: Re:

Sky covered up doping. Breaks WADA code for complicity.

I've been wondering about this.
Since the no needles policy is a UCI thing it doesn't come under the WADA code right?

It's the complicity that's the breach, isn't it?

"involving an anti doping violation"

 

[Jacques (7 ch)]

Under the bus, Josh, quick. Don't forget to mention those 55 ampoules of Kenalog you binged out on after the vitamins.

Seriously, isn't this story a plant to distract attention? Although it seems to be working as a little more coal on the fire?

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

I wonder. It all seems rather convenient that the 'best interest of the rider' happily coincides with 'the best interest of Sky'. Doesn't this just open up the 'he broke the rules but he wasn't well' for taking more serious PEDS? Rules / policies are not there for Team Sky to choose to follow. They are there to follow or face sanction. And if they were conscious of the kids mental health (yeah - Ellingworth really sounds the caring type) - couldn't they have approached TPTB and asked for advice?

If it'd been me, I think I'd have reported it but with the context, expressing my concerns about his welfare and requesting that actions takes account of this. Would his name necessarily have been released or have been of interest at the time? I doubt it. if he'd even tried to tell this story before whether it would have got any air time? Almost certainly not - kid no one has heard of who broke the rules by injecting vitamins'.

Where did i hear that Tramadol was handed about like sweeties? was that JTL? This certainly suggests it was freel available.

It's difficult to know isn't. The rider was chronically depressed, possibly suicidal, by his own admission. People are extremely vulnerable in that condition. Steve Peters, though he gets mocked for his 'inner chimp' stuff, is an extremely experienced psychiatrist with years of experience with very vulnerable people. It's possible he made his best, honest judgement call on how to deal with it. It's tempting now to interpret everything in the light of duplicitous self-serving Sky-Gollum behaviour, but it's maybe not valid here.

Personally I'm more interested in the fact that his mental health problems hadn't been picked up much earlier, that basic employee care maybe wasn't as much a constant priority as it should've been, and the wider context of pressure and expectation within pro-cycling. Mental health problems are a big issue in pro sport. But this probably isn't the thread for wider context, Sky specific as it is an' all that.

I agree, but only up to a point. I'm not sure I believe that Josh E. said he hadn't used them. He described in pretty good detail on that clip exactly what it was like and what he felt. Do you think in his fragile mental state he would have been able to dissemble, hide track marks, etc etc. etc in the face of an experience psychiatrist who's been around the block? Surely Peters, given his experience, would have known straight away that he was lying - it is, after all, the MO of every (drug) abuser to lie and lie and lie. Again, it sounds all too convenient. But equally, it makes a better and more saleable story for Sky to have covered up, so there's room for doubt. But IMO Peters, even if he were lied to, should have known it was a lie.

And yes, it's clear that the culture fostered was not supportive and Ellingworth's quotes just reek of a horrible, pressure cooker, get on or get out kind of environment. Not the environment to foster an anti-doping ethos. And not one which you'd hope a young man with little life experience, a lot of pressure and a lot of temptation would find himself in.

Two things interest me: 1. Italy. Why 'drive to Italy'. How did he know to go to Italy? Why not go shopping for legal vitamins and stuff for injecting in France? Even if Nice is near the border, it still seems very very peculiar. Does the kid speak Italian? How the hell did he know what to ask for if not? In my experience (I speak reasonable Italian and I've lived in Italy for 4 months and I wouldn't be able to ask for this stuff), Italians do not have anything like the level of English that the French do, and if I had to go to a chemist in a foreign country, I'd bet on being able to get what I was after in Nice versus Ventimiglia or whereever. Nice is also a waaaaaay bigger city than any of the local Italian places...hence much more likely to have what you want over the counter.

2. How did this get out. Was it Josh E. seeing the opportunity and selling his story whilst the going was good - the narrative is perfect for him to make the most dough out of it. OR was it someone perhaps hinting to a journo. that they might want to talk to an ex-Sky rider...which means someone is really out to bring Sky, or SDB, down. If the latter, I don't think they'll stop until SDB resigns. If more stuff comes out, I think it's clear its a concerted campaign with a specific objective. I only hope they succeed!

 

[Electress]

Sky covered up doping. Breaks WADA code for complicity.

I've been wondering about this.
Since the no needles policy is a UCI thing it doesn't come under the WADA code right?

It's the complicity that's the breach, isn't it?

"involving an anti doping violation"

No. .involving an attempted anti doping rule violation. No needles policy is surely an anti-doping rule.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Under the bus, Josh, quick. Don't forget to mention those 55 ampoules of Kenalog you binged out on after the vitamins.

Seriously, isn't this story a plant to distract attention? Although it seems to be working as a little more coal on the fire?

No. It certainly shows Sky are not fostering talent, their expectation is gets as skinny as Froome and performs regardless of age. It also helps provide context to JTL. Restless training by the A-Squad who is on GT gear is killing the younger riders who may have not been introduced to EPO. The tramandol story is very scary, basically Sky got he kid addicted to the detriment of his sanity. He was 20 years old and Sky are farming him prescription only hospital grade pain killer.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Ellingworth has already started ripping out pictures of Edmondson from cycling magazines/race books.

Lol! That's only reserved for evil French dopers with no remorse! :lol:

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

Under the bus, Josh, quick. Don't forget to mention those 55 ampoules of Kenalog you binged out on after the vitamins.

Seriously, isn't this story a plant to distract attention? Although it seems to be working as a little more coal on the fire?

No. It certainly shows Sky are not fostering talent, their expectation is gets as skinny as Froome and performs regardless of age. It also helps provide context to JTL. Restless training by the A-Squad who is on GT gear is killing the younger riders who may have not been introduced to EPO. The tramandol story is very scary, basically Sky got he kid addicted to the detriment of his sanity. He was 20 years old and Sky are farming him prescription only hospital grade pain killer.

Didn't Sky say they stopped using Tramadol in 2012? The claim he got it from the race doctor versus Sky hardly seems likely if he got addicted long term.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

I reckon all of that is a 'stretch' to be fair. Pure speculation really. Sounds a bit like an orchestrated one person conspiracy theory, but maybe that's misreading your point.

Is that not a distraction from the reality of everything that's happened since?

(For the sake of clarity, my use of the word 'backstabbing' was accompanied by the qualifying words if, seems, perhaps plus question marks, all of which were very deliberate, not casual. Maybe that was still ambiguous of me, but either way, I wouldn't personally subscribe to your subsequent theory).

Everything that's happened since? With regards to Brailsford's initial comments to Lawton, I'm assuming DB was aware at the time of speaking to him that Sky weren't going to be able to disprove the allegation due to the stolen laptop and the lost medical records. So he tried to fob Lawton off, knowing that it wouldn't exactly look great that the doctor of their star rider hadn't used the drop box system like every other doctor on the team had managed to do. By the way, Freeman's failure to have done that doesn't break any GMC guidelines. That's a red herring.

As for the subsequent lack of clarity from Sky/British cycling you have to remember that they were told by UKAD not to discuss or comment on the case. We don't actually know when UKAD were first made aware that it was Fluimucil in the jiffy bag. And even if it did take some time for Freeman to notify UKAD that Fluimucil was the medication administered to Wiggins, is that really surprising considering it was an innocuous substance treated some five and a half years beforehand and especially considering he had no records available to show himself what it was!?

As for conspiracy theory, what is not in any doubt is that someone who either works for or is heavily involved in British Cycling has been consistently leaking information to Matt Lawton of the Daily Mail for the last couple of years. That is plainly obvious. The most recent example was just a couple of days ago when the draft report was leaked to him. Previous to that you've had the Lizzie Deignan missed tests, the Simon Yates positive test, the equipment being sold off on the black market, the Rio bikes not being ready in time and a whole host of other stories. Of course this same source at British Cycling, whether it's a board member or somebody further down the food chain like a PA, press officer or a medical assistant, would have been perfectly positioned to learn about both of the following details.

1) The package itself. The Manchester Velodrome is not a big place and not many people work there. I've had a meeting there myself and from my experience if there were more than a few dozen staff working there on a daily basis I'd be surprised. So Simon Cope shows up to pick up a package assembled by the physio, Phil Burt. That is exactly the kind of detail I would expect Lawton's mole to either know about directly or be informed about by somebody else second hand.

2) Freeman's stolen laptop and his non-use of the drop box system. Again, this is exactly the kind of detail that would feed back to somebody working at the Velodrome in Manchester.

If anything, the most incredible aspect of all of this story surrounding the jiffy bag is that the mole at British Cycling who has been consistently leaking information to Matt Lawton of the Daily Mail, rather vindictively I might add (riders like Yates are entitled to due process as much as anyone else), has still yet to be bloody uncovered!

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Edmonsdson, semi confession. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39293763, he did it without team knowledge, but they allegedly tried to keep it quiet.

Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.

Another profound example of transparency.

He admits himself he was depressed. Some things are best left unreported. The press would have gone to town on it with no regard for the rider's wellbeing.

Recently they would, but not in 2013 and 2014 when the press were right behind Sky. Who were the journalists writing stories that were querying what Sky were doing? Kimmage and .............?

None of this information was available to the press in 2013 or 2014. That's why they've gone after Sky now. The Fancy Bears hacking took place and then an allegation was made which Sky haven't been able to adequately refute.

 

[JRanton]

Re:

I haven't really followed this case, but who cares about this talentless neo-pro who injected himself with vitamins??

Again, you could fairly argue that it shows Sky in a good light (like the JTL case). A fellow team sky rider reported it and even went to the trouble of taking photographic evidence! Doesn't exactly scream widespread team doping culture to me. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Electress]

Peters can't have it both ways on this.

Either he and team management didn't notice that a kid was so mentally ill that he was a serious suicide risk (Peters' reason for not reporting) or they deliberately didn't report someone for violating an anti-doping rule. Neither show the team in a very good light. However, since it's clear that they seem to think it shows off their 'whistle-blowing policy' it wouldn't surprise me too much if the story originally came from them but has back-fired a bit.

As for the 'vindictive mole' thesis postulated above. Seems a convoluted explanation, and one which only works if the mole is both incredibly well-informed AND incredibly malicious. why that package? I mean, if Cope was telling the truth and ferrying stuff around is no big deal, why did the mole choose that package, of all packages to tell Matt Lawton about? He/she/it sure made a good choice, since so very much about it - the ridiculous journeys, wrong expenses, no lab. store records, no medical records, confusion over prescription rights, lost laptop etc etc - is so dodgy as to defy explanation across the board. crumbs, he/she/it has either MI5 levels of intelligence gathering skills to know virtually nothing about the package and its journey is explicable, he/she/it has lucked out beyond credibility, or he/she/it knew the package was a dodgy as hell.

 

[GraftPunk]

Sky apologists are funny...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I haven't really followed this case, but who cares about this talentless neo-pro who injected himself with vitamins??

Again, you could fairly argue that it shows Sky in a good light (like the JTL case). A fellow team sky rider reported it and even went to the trouble of taking photographic evidence! Doesn't exactly scream widespread team doping culture to me. Quite the opposite in fact.

This is completely inane. Do you know if any team in history which doped all of its 30+ riders? No, they had a core group who doped whilst the rest were panne e aqua. The fact that Sky were happy not to foster and protect a young British rider and fuel him up on a powerful highly addictive pain killer does not show Sky in a good light. It shows them to be complete inept if not criminally negligent for endnaging the health of one of their employees.

Disgusting.