Re: Re:
King Boonen said:
fmk_RoI said:
King Boonen said:
I'm pretty sure it was Guimard, or an earlier coach, possibly Stablinski. it might even have been give me a good track rider rather than IP rider, it was in Fotheringhams' recent book on Hinault.
Have seen it several places and I'm sure I have a note of it to use somewhere, for the life of me I'm not recalling where right now. Can't even remember who it was said it. But as you show with the names you've listed, there's plenty of riders through history to justify it.
Yep, and I'm sure the quote never mentioned medalists, just good riders.
The Hegelian said:
[quote="
King Boonen":2gbkoajb][quote="
The Hegelian":2gbkoajb]Other than Berzin or Wiggins, anyone know which other IP or TP riders have won GT's?? Or contended/podiumed?
And what are Orica doing wasting their time with Chaves & the Yates boys? Are they just biding time until Hepburn and Durbridge **mature**?
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.
TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote] you failed to recognise, that after the USSR and GDR, the depth fell away on the track, the classy riders from the east, like Eki, came across to the road from the track, lots of other Soviet state riders, who would have contested the best riders like Bartko, Mcgee, Wiggins, went to the road. A rider like Raimondas Rumsas would have probably pumped everyone on the track. You can be small, lean, and hammer an IP and TP, see the height/weight of Peter Kennaugh and Jack Bobridge. Kittel and Greipel, would have pumped the Brits, think about Degenkolb, Gretsch, Greipel, Kittel, Martin, they would have lapped the Australians and the Brits and the Kiwis. Especially if Heiko was coaching them.
the money that went into the British track program, was enough for them to dominate the track
caveat: the communist system had a sports talent ID program and sports schools, for their propaganda, effectively equivalent resources that the UK system now funnels.
so, if we view it thru this lens, we can ascertain that the medals and victories, are merely an intersection of economic resources, and catchment of potential athletes(talent pool)