Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr. Maserati]

I have a feeling the questions I am about to ask is well trodden ground but I will ask it anyway...

If we start from the premise that seems to be the view in the Clinic that everyone is doing it. How can one team or riders better performance be explained by doping alone? Or is it that the conjecture is that these teams or riders have better (more systematic) doping programs?

Why would you start with that premise?
I can think of a handful of posters who believe everyone dopes. So, their input in any discussion is somewhat biased and often flawed.

I assume no one is trying to say only one team is doping and the others can't keep up because they are not?

The reason I ask is that it seems intuitively obvious that there are more factors at play in performance than doping or not doping but curious what others think.

AND there may be a previous Clinic Thread that covers this ... if so please point me in the direction and I will delete this post.

T

Of course there are - many different factors. But usually they apply to individuals, ie one being better than an other.
However, what is being discussed here is a team that has performed beyond all other teams.

 

[the big ring]

I'm curious.

If the maximum (allowable) VAM or W/kg has now been confirmed via a "clean" Tour - we know the value all riders in a team need to be able to hit for each climb. The leader needs to be able to do it for the entire tour; domestiques for a climb or two per day then drop off and start recovering to do it again the next day.

How does this now not become a zero sum game - other than the UCI "bio passporting" teams down a few W/kg via covert warnings?

Is this the state of affairs of the Tour now - a grinding, maximum physiologically plausible pace up the climbs broken by the most aero "humanly plausible" W/kg in the TT, with the odd crash or dog the only variable in the race?

 

[taiwan]

About W/kg numbers: isn't it entirely possible to ride to a wattage anyway? If you hold a high but not unbelieveable wattage you could still do damage to other teams.

 

[taiwan]

I'm curious.

If the maximum (allowable) VAM or W/kg has now been confirmed via a "clean" Tour - we know the value all riders in a team need to be able to hit for each climb. The leader needs to be able to do it for the entire tour; domestiques for a climb or two per day then drop off and start recovering to do it again the next day.

How does this now not become a zero sum game - other than the UCI "bio passporting" teams down a few W/kg via covert warnings?

Is this the state of affairs of the Tour now - a grinding, maximum physiologically plausible pace up the climbs broken by the most aero "humanly plausible" W/kg in the TT, with the odd crash or dog the only variable in the race?

Just had the same thought and posted below.

 

[hrotha]

Just had the same thought and posted below.

I've been thinking about that theory for a while now. We now pay a lot more attention to W/kg figures, so we know everything above 6.2 W/Kg or thereabouts in a long climb at the end of the stage is impossible. What's stopping lesser riders from doping themselves up to the physiological human level? I brought this up on Twitter with JV and he said they'd have to do so much blood manipulation the biopassport would catch them anyway, but I'm not convinced. Performing close to the human limits + enhanced recovery = win.

 

[_frost]

I've been thinking about that theory for a while now. We now pay a lot more attention to W/kg figures, so we know everything above 6.2 W/Kg or thereabouts in a long climb at the end of the stage is impossible. What's stopping lesser riders from doping themselves up to the physiological human level? I brought this up on Twitter with JV and he said they'd have to do so much blood manipulation the biopassport would catch them anyway, but I'm not convinced. Performing close to the human limits + enhanced recovery = win.

Tallest person in recorded history is 2.72m. What would you say if you one day met a man that is 2.8m tall? He's cheating?

 

[hrotha]

Tallest person in recorded history is 2.72m. What would you say if you one day met a man that is 2.8m tall? He's cheating?

If he were a pro in a being tall sport, then yes, I'd suspect HGH use.

Feel free to replace "impossible" with "highly unlikely" in my post, though. That would make it more accurate.

 

[taiwan]

I've been thinking about that theory for a while now. We now pay a lot more attention to W/kg figures, so we know everything above 6.2 W/Kg or thereabouts in a long climb at the end of the stage is impossible. What's stopping lesser riders from doping themselves up to the physiological human level? I brought this up on Twitter with JV and he said they'd have to do so much blood manipulation the biopassport would catch them anyway, but I'm not convinced. Performing close to the human limits + enhanced recovery = win.

Ashenden recently completed a study in which he injected subjects intravenously twice weekly with microdoses of EPO over a period of three months, then ran their blood values through the biological passport software. "Not one of them failed," he said.

 

[blackcat]

they kicked **** in the crits up in Sydney tho.

 

[_frost]

If he were a pro in a being tall sport, then yes, I'd suspect HGH use.

Well, I actually agree that part

Feel free to replace "impossible" with "highly unlikely" in my post, though. That would make it more accurate.

That's a good correction.

 

[the big ring]

Ashenden recently completed a study in which he injected subjects intravenously twice weekly with microdoses of EPO over a period of three months, then ran their blood values through the biological passport software. "Not one of them failed," he said.

Need to watch he doesn't get sued by Ferarri et al for patent violations...

 

[taiwan]

Tallest person in recorded history is 2.72m. What would you say if you one day met a man that is 2.8m tall? He's cheating?

You'd think there was something abnormal about him, yes. If you didn't know what condition explained his height people would be doing studies on him to find out. You wouldn't just say "oh look he's tall".

 

[hrotha]

Ashenden recently completed a study in which he injected subjects intravenously twice weekly with microdoses of EPO over a period of three months, then ran their blood values through the biological passport software. "Not one of them failed," he said.

Aye, I read about that. It would be interesting to know how much of a performance boost they got.

 

[taiwan]

Aye, I read about that. It would be interesting to know how much of a performance boost they got.

Fair point, don't know if those doses would be advantageous to performance.

 

[blackcat]

You'd think there was something abnormal him, yes. If you didn't know what condition explained his height people would be doing studies on him to find out. You wouldn't just say "oh look he's tall".

Caster Semenya

 

[sniper]

Ashenden recently completed a study in which he injected subjects intravenously twice weekly with microdoses of EPO over a period of three months, then ran their blood values through the biological passport software. "Not one of them failed," he said.

Thanks for relinking this.

I've always liked Floyd's way of putting things:

You can use three to four times your body's normal production of EPO if you inject it intravenously and have virtually no chance of testing positive within a matter of hours. So the biological passport is a joke, and I'm fairly certain the UCI knows about it.

So apparently it's really difficult to get flagged by the passport, and yet, Wiggins refuses to show us his passport data...

 

[mastersracer]

Thanks for relinking this.

I've always liked Floyd's way of putting things:


So apparently it's really difficult to get flagged by the passport, and yet, Wiggins refuses to show us his passport data...

This is why storing samples for later testing is important. Tests evolve and develop, such as the new EPO WGA MAIIA test, which could be effective against microdosing as Ashenden's own research shows.

 

[MrRoboto]

Did Wiggins publish his passport data in 2009?

 

[taiwan]

Is thiswhat was published? (pdf)

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

Yawn.... Zzzz... Are you still at this? Lol!

In a very dirty sport, grounded in low, latino style cheating, SKY have won clean. The truth will be told in time. Good luck with your clever, labyrinthine, crackpot, tangential constructs. Enjoy!

 

[taiwan]

Oh hi. Yup still at it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yawn.... Zzzz... Are you still at this? Lol!

In a very dirty sport, grounded in low, latino style cheating, SKY have won clean. The truth will be told in time. Good luck with your clever, labyrinthine, crackpot, tangential constructs. Enjoy!

Just like Lance.

 

[badboygolf16v]

I haven't seen any congratulations from recently departed ex-BCF stalwart Chris Boardman on Twitter. He congratulated some of his Boardman Bikes sponsored riders on a win they had today, but not Wiggins.

Lance has tweeted his congratulations.

Anyone seen anything from Chris publicly applauding Wiggins' success?

 

[richtea]

No, we get it. We just find it cringe inducing. But clever by Brad. And kudos for the safe home comment; we know there will be a lot of drunk Brits in Paris today.

What was cringe inducing about the raffle ticket line?

 

[richtea]

I haven't seen any congratulations from recently departed ex-BCF stalwart Chris Boardman on Twitter. He congratulated some of his Boardman Bikes sponsored riders on a win they had today, but not Wiggins.

Lance has tweeted his congratulations.

Anyone seen anything from Chris publicly applauding Wiggins' success?

He congratulated him live on ITV didn't he? Quite profusely?