Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[lemoogle]

Wiggins > all other GC contenders by miles.
Porte, rogers, EBH > all other domestiques and at the front of the peloton for 90 % of the race while consistently being in the last remaining 8-10 riders of the broken down peloton.
Froome > erm... everyone else
Wiggins, froome > all TTers at TT
Wiggins, froome > all climbers at climbing
Sky Team doctor "taintedness" >= all other teams on the tour.
Team Sky arrogance and irritability about something they have always criticized while promising full transparency > USPS

and last but not least
Wiggins' sideburns > all other sideburns

And somebody will tell me that this is normal? Even if you somehow fanboi wiggins to a half believable rider, then your job is only 1/10th done here.

I WILL give cavendish the benefit of the doubt, since his performance does not come from nowhere.

I just read in a French Newspaper how Van der Broeck would never really do better in the tour since he's already 29... Wonder what they would have said when wiggins was finishing GTs in the 100th positions at the same age

 

[Digger]

I never heard that. Might explain the Sky soigneur at la Vuelta and the reason the team hightailed it and it also might explain the real need for Leinders, which all point in the opposite direction of clean.

Yeah that's true...he gave great detail in his book about this...he used to test for effectiveness and clearance time....of course mechanics urine was another one they used to deal with. But this went all wrong one day. Funny story. A cyclist who knew he would fail the test got the mechanic's urine...he failed the test. The cyclist was going mental saying this is obviously wrong. Until they found out the mechanic had been out the night before taking speed!!!

 

[The Hitch]

Thanks for relinking this.

I've always liked Floyd's way of putting things:


So apparently it's really difficult to get flagged by the passport, and yet, Wiggins refuses to show us his passport data...

Havent you been listening? Floyd is a proven doper and therefore always lies.

Even when he tells the truth.

None of these guys are trustworthy. None of what they say can ever be true.

Jesus Manzano just made up all that stuff about Puerto and got lucky by coincidence.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Havent you been listening? Floyd is a proven doper and therefore always lies.

Even when he tells the truth.

None of these guys are trustworthy. None of what they say can ever be true.

Jesus Manzano just made up all that stuff about Puerto and got lucky by coincidence.

Patrik Sinkewitz just made all that Freiburg stuff up too. That money Klöden paid to make the investigation go away was just a figment of your imagination.

 

[Maxiton]

Yawn.... Zzzz... Are you still at this? Lol!

In a very dirty sport, grounded in low, latino style cheating, SKY have won clean. The truth will be told in time. Good luck with your clever, labyrinthine, crackpot, tangential constructs. Enjoy!

You mean as opposed to high, anglo style cheating?

Definitely labyrinthine, crackpot, and tangential, but not very clever.

 

[JA.Tri]

Somewhat earlier mention was made of Alberto winning Le Tour...if he had been present.

I have no doubt that tactics and action would have varied had AC and AS:

. been present and
. uninjured, lucky and in good form.

However given the apparent abilities (and ? possibility for even better domestique performances) of Sky I don't know AC would have won. I don't think he would.

Just a guess, but I don't see AC getting within cooee of BW and CF's TT times. Even a fit Fabian and Tony* were going to struggle to get close esp on the second TT imo.

Given CF and BW's demonstrated (and team's) climbing, the base climb rate would still have been very high. Alberto and Andy would have attacked but their rate of gain (on CF and BW) would have been much less than on previous occasions (against the top GC prospects). Therefore the resultant time loss/es would have been so much less. I also suspect that with super doms, BW and CF would have managed fatigue effects to a maximum.

Interesting possibilities raised:

. on doping to a maximum plausible level
. performing to a maximum plausible level (while capable of SO much more).

Debate on evidence versus suspicion. The performances of the individuals/team SKY were very significantly superior to the other teams. Evidence??? Maybe or not depending on your view. Suspicious? Maybe all of us could give them a pass. We could give them the benefit of the doubt.

Me? I'm highly sceptical.



* while I guess Fabian may have been close to fit, Martin was not

 

[zlev11]

an on form Contador vs. Froome will be amazing to watch whenever it happens, at least. it might even be better than his battle with The Chicken in 2007.

 

[Franklin]

EPO has been implicated in poor amateur performances as well. No one is stating that physiologically plausible performances are evidence of non-doping. They provide no evidence of doping. There's a distinction in there you need to mull over.

Then why trot it out as counterpoint if you say it's absolutely not telltale? And why not talk about the other points?

Re, Leinders. How is this evidence of doping? Fine if you want to say its suspicious, but it does not constitute evidence of doping.

Hey Masterracer, do you have any clue what a strawman is? because I'm getting tired of this structural missrepresenting my position. I called you out on this about ten times now. You are clearly doing thiis on purpose as discussing me on a honest level would not work for you.

Last time. Stop missattributing my position!

In fact, recent years have shown that it is the doctors that are being used in secret - not on a team's payroll - that are most linked with doping. If Sky wanted a secret doping program, why would they put the doc on their payroll? They would set up secret meetings, money laundering etc.

Now I'm laughing so hard that it's funny.

Hold your seat boys... They listed only one doctor on their site and it sure isn't Leinders.

Leinders is another good example of confirmation bias. Isn't it dodgy that Saxo Bank, Garmin, etc. all have DS's that are admitted dopers? RSNT DS is facing a lifetime ban. BMC is phonak - Och, Ballan, Hincapie, etc. You can cherry pick dodgy characters/backgrounds from any team.

You love those strawmen. The clinic wasn't started about Sky. Really, don't cry, there is cycling beyond Sky.. Nobody here gave those people a pass.

We don't put up our nationalistic rose colored glasses and handwave problems.

A question which you will most likely not answer if your posting style is indicative: Do you want to give the a pass or do you want the hard questions to be asked?

 

[ultimobici]

OMFG.. Brads podium speech " some dreams do come true"

Pharmstrong , " I feel sorry for those who don't believe in miracles "

Having been impressed by your posts on doping in the past, I have to say that is a pretty skewed interpretation of Wiggins's comment.

He was referring to himself & his mother in that sentence, unlike Armstrong who was attempting to deflect several years of allegations & rumour, and well you know it.

 

[FrankChickens]

an on form Contador vs. Froome will be amazing to watch whenever it happens, at least. it might even be better than his battle with The Chicken in 2007.

Absolutely, I'm also interested to watch the two of them battle it out. Unfortunately neither of them will ever go downhill (especially Froome) like Rasmussen can. And whatever Froome does at the Vuelta will not be the same as having actually targeted the race v. pacing Wiggins for 3500km, helping Cav win the Olympic RR and then doing it.

 

[_frost]

You'd think there was something abnormal about him, yes. If you didn't know what condition explained his height people would be doing studies on him to find out. You wouldn't just say "oh look he's tall".

Of course, because it is highly unlikely. But if it was deemed impossible alread before hand, you wouldn't study anything just close your eyes and wish it goes away.

 

[Grand Tourist]

Kimmage has his say

I was pleasantly surprised to read this article in this mornings Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...attle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html

The Mail is Newscorps chief rival in the tabloid market so they may be having a sly dig. That being said at least there is some skepticism in the main stream UK press.

 

[Von Mises]

Hold your seat boys... They listed their complete staff on their website EXCEPT LEINDERS.

Are you sure? If I remember correctly, Brailsford said that there are 4 people in their medical staff, only one (Peters) is listed on their website.

 

[Franklin]

Are you sure? If I remember correctly, Brailsford said that there are 4 people in their medical staff, only one (Peters) is listed on their website.

You are right. I thought Kerrison was also on the site *see the shirt of Sky without Leinders*

 

[iZnoGouD]

Contador should be afraid he will want as much blood as he can get safely

fun Vuelta awaits us

 

[sittingbison]

I was pleasantly surprised to read this article in this mornings Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...attle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html

The Mail is Newscorps chief rival in the tabloid market so they may be having a sly dig. That being said at least there is some skepticism in the main stream UK press.

Bravo Paul Kimmage, no doubt he will be derided by his once faithful followers who will decry him tarnishing the gold of Team Sky, but he has succinctly encapsulated thousands of posts on a dozen threads here over the Tour, and hundreds of thousands of tweets.

And without the slightest disparagement, tin foil hat theory or personal vilification. Merely the question - what happened to Wiggos 2007 speech and Brailsfords zero tolerance policy.

He could have sunk the boot and included Mick Rogers, and a few choice words like Freiburg and Ferrari (mind you he DID mention Sinkovitz hehe), but hey, he has restraint and clarity of vision, a "less is more" mentality.

Again, Bravo Paul Kimmage, still carrying on the good fight in the face of adversity after all these years

 

[TheGeneral]

Having been impressed by your posts on doping in the past, I have to say that is a pretty skewed interpretation of Wiggins's comment.

I disagree. Darryl Webster is an intelligent individual. With some excellent career results as both an amateur and professional cyclist. All of which were achieved by talent, dedication, and a great work ethic. He has experienced first hand the physical and psychological demands of this sport, and therefore knows intuitively when natural limitation's are exceeded from an observational point of view.

 

[andy1234]

I disagree. Darryl Webster is an intelligent individual. With some excellent career results as both an amateur and professional cyclist. All of which were achieved by talent, dedication, and a great work ethic. He has experienced first hand the physical and psychological demands of this sport, and therefore knows intuitively when natural limitation's are exceeded from an observational point of view.

To the bold...

Darryl has many admirers of his cycling talent, including myself, but he is also an ex competitor who seems to find it difficult to reconcile his own mental and physical shortcomings in relation to more capable athletes.

The truth is, if Darryl had been given the opportunities and development that BC elite cyclists enjoy now, he would probably have been riding at a similar level to the riders he questions.

 

[badboygolf16v]

He congratulated him live on ITV didn't he? Quite profusely?

Dunno, didn't see it. Will try and track it down to see exactly what he said.

 

[richtea]

Should be pretty easy to find as Boardman was co-presenting in the studio with Gary Imlach. Good luck!

 

[Darryl Webster]

To the bold...

Darryl has many admirers of his cycling talent, including myself, but he is also an ex competitor who seems to find it difficult to reconcile his own mental and physical shortcomings in relation to more capable athletes.

The truth is, if Darryl had been given the opportunities and development that BC elite cyclists enjoy now, he would probably have been riding at a similar level to the riders he questions.

I can state quite definitely I would NOT have developed with the BC backroom staff employed . I've seen one of there DS,s inject in front of my own eyes and speaking out about doping in the UK peloton at the 1989 Pro Cycling Association AGM in my capacity as a riders rep ensured that for 1990 not one single offer of a contract came forward.
You can all fall for the bull **** about BC / Sky being a clean show all ya like, I KNOW different. It never has been .
And I,ve always been very open about my subsequent issues with depression which are mostly family related and have nothing to do with my years in cycling.
I spent four long years from 2000 in personal therapy and training as a councillor and I know what I,m looking at.

 

[andy1234]

I can state quite definitely I would NOT have developed with the BC backroom staff employed . I've seen one of there DS,s inject in front of my own eyes and speaking out about doping in the UK peloton at the 1989 Pro Cycling Association AGM in my capacity as a riders rep ensured that for 1990 not one single offer of a contract came forward.
You can all fall for the bull **** about BC / Sky being a clean show all ya like, I KNOW different. It never has been .
And I,ve always been very open about my subsequent issues with depression which are mostly family related and have nothing to do with my years in cycling.
I spent four long years from 2000 in personal therapy and training as a councillor and I know what I,m looking at.

Darryl, just to be clear, I was NOT talking about depression.

I was simply referring to the mental attributes required to deal with the challenges of competing at the very highest level.
It is just as important as any physical attribute, but much harder to measure.

I don't doubt for a minute that you would not have been involved with BC, but that is probably a two way thing if we are both being honest.
All I am saying is that the performance levels being achieved by current riders are probably just the type of perfomances a 1980's Darryl Webster would have achieved, given the same support.

As to the statement that you "know" BC is not clean. That simply isn't true.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Darryl, just to be clear, I was NOT talking about depression.

I was simply referring to the mental attributes required to deal with the challenges of competing at the very highest level.
It is just as important as any physical attribute, but much harder to measure.

I don't doubt for a minute that you would not have been involved with BC, but that is probably a two way thing if we are both being honest.
All I am saying is that the performance levels being achieved by current riders are probably just the type of perfomances a 1980's Darryl Webster would have achieved, given the same support.

Yup, if I had the capacity for the skullduggery , connivance and doing "whatever it takes" so prevalent at the very top your bang on. Genuine people at the top are rare as hens teeth. They do exist though but they get by by keeping there mouths firmly shut.

 

[oldcrank]

Can we expect another book by Kimmage in the shops in
time for Christmas? Maybe Mr. Webster with all his inside
knowledge can get a book deal too.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Can we expect another book by Kimmage in the shops in
time for Christmas? Maybe Mr. Webster with all his inside
knowledge can get a book deal too.

I'd rather read those books than another load of embedded fanboy guff about marginal gains and lazer like focus.